Doping and Depression

pprendeville

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/100-tours-100-tales/2014/jan/23/cycling-relationship-depression-doping

Thread prompted by a comment in another thread. I also feel that after a hard week or two on the bike my mood begins to alter. Anyone else in the same boat? While this article focuses more on depression related to doping I do think their is a case for depression and overtraining.

Harrybelafonte

pprendeville wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/100-tours-100-tales/2014/jan/23/cycling-relationship-depression-doping

Thread prompted by a comment in another thread. I also feel that after a hard week or two on the bike my mood begins to alter. Anyone else in the same boat? While this article focuses more on depression related to doping I do think their is a case for depression and overtraining.

I don't think you're implying it but want to clarify that feeling down due to fatigue from training is not the same as depression.

12 sprocket

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I don't think you're implying it but want to clarify that feeling down due to fatigue from training is not the same as depression.

Harry If you read the article linked in Prendivilles post theres comment on some research that links overtraining with Depression... A certain amount of Fatigue is natural when training.. Overtraining from poor training practises or an imbalance in other life stressors like study work, poor personal relationships is a different thing and lasts for longer than the usual day or two that it takes to recover from normal training loads.

Harrybelafonte

12 sprocket wrote: »

Harry If you read the article linked in Prendivilles post theres comment on some research that links overtraining with Depression... A certain amount of Fatigue is natural when training.. Overtraining from poor training practises or an imbalance in other life stressors like study work, poor personal relationships is a different thing and lasts for longer than the usual day or two that it takes to recover from normal training loads.

I did read the article. What makes you think I didn't? I was attempting to politely clarify something and I stand by it.

The article is insightful and very interesting, but I hear the term "depression" chucked about quite flippantly IRL, "I'm always depressed on a Monday", "I'm so depressed I didn't get that... whatever thing".

Maybe I come into contact with the wrong crowd, but was trying to make a point. Maybe it's obvious. Still felt it should be said

slideshow bob

pprendeville wrote: »

I do think their is a case for depression and overtraining.

Well there's clinical depression and there's the symptoms of overtraining - anybody with concern about the former would benefit from appropriate help. Overtraining syndrome has recognised symptoms which overlap with symptoms of depression including:

• lethargy, loss of enthusiasm, energy, drive;
• irritability, loss of concentration
• insomnia;
• loss of appetite;

Tim Noakes' "Lore of Running" has a very good section on overtraining syndrome. If I remember correctly early symptoms are easily relieved and reversed. But athletes forging on into full blown burnout can take years to recover. (Noakes cites two professionals that pretty much ended their athletic careers by overtraining.)

This document (www.bodymechanics.info/files/Overtraining.doc‎) is a fair primer and concludes:

Every discussion of stress (overtraining) usually ends with the same definitive statement: too little stress, physical or psychological, does not bring about desired changes; too much stress is harmful. But being aware of the body's warning signals and by knowing the stages of adaptation, you can help your progress in training and steadily improve your fitness.

12 sprocket

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I did read the article. What makes you think I didn't? I was attempting to politely clarify something and I stand by it.

The article is insightful and very interesting, but I hear the term "depression" chucked about quite flippantly IRL, "I'm always depressed on a Monday", "I'm so depressed I didn't get that... whatever thing".

Maybe I come into contact with the wrong crowd, but was trying to make a point. Maybe it's obvious. Still felt it should be said

Harry
I agree that clinical depression is a very serious thing and the depression/low moods might not be quite the same thing.. I suppose my point is that for people prone to clinical depression it may be even more important to avoid the possibility of overtraining as much as possible. The reason being that the symptoms might be even more serious for them and lead to an episode of clinical depression..
I am not medicaly qualified and if there are any medics out there maybe they would comment.

Harrybelafonte

12 sprocket wrote: »

Harry
I agree that clinical depression is a very serious thing and the depression/low moods might not be quite the same thing.. I suppose my point is that for people prone to clinical depression it may be even more important to avoid the possibility of overtraining as much as possible. The reason being that the symptoms might be even more serious for them and lead to an episode of clinical depression..
I am not medicaly qualified and if there are any medics out there maybe they would comment.

Yes, I understand what you're getting at. Fair point.

WillyFXP

That article is pure speculation backed up by no clinical research or professional study, also known as bollox.

rckfld

Define clinical research? There are tonnes of evidence which suggests a link between steroid/PED abuse and mental instability.

WillyFXP

rckfld wrote: »

Define clinical research? There are tonnes of evidence which suggests a link between steroid/PED abuse and mental instability.

The article claims that depression is directly linked to professional cyclists yet it shows no research or evidence to back up that claim. It shows extracts and links to other articles that bear no prevalence to cyclists. Mental instability is not depression. Replace "cyclist" with any number of sports professions and this article could apply to them all.

petethedrummer

WillyFXP wrote: »

That article is pure speculation backed up by no clinical research or professional study, also known as bollox.

He links to studies in the article. And he does some speculating on a few different things.

He does not definitively declare that cycling or doping cause depression. Sure he discusses the positive effects of cycling on mental health towards the end.

It seems like a perfectly reasonable article.

WillyFXP

petethedrummer wrote: »

He links to studies in the article. And he does some speculating on a few different things.

He does not definitively declare that cycling or doping cause depression. Sure he discusses the positive effects of cycling on mental health towards the end.

It seems like a perfectly reasonable article.

I beg to differ, the articles title "Cycling's longstanding, predictable and troubling relationship with depression" would appear to directly relate cycling to depression. The actual article talks about some cyclists who have committed suicide and attempts to justify the relationship between the two, which it clearly doesn't.

Harrybelafonte

WillyFXP wrote: »

I beg to differ, the articles title "Cycling's longstanding, predictable and troubling relationship with depression" would appear to directly relate cycling to depression. The actual article talks about some cyclists who have committed suicide and attempts to justify the relationship between the two, which it clearly doesn't.

Whoa, hold on. Your post gives me the impression you're saying the piece is trying to argue that cycling causes depression? Am I wrong here?

WillyFXP

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Whoa, hold on. Your post gives me the impression you're saying the piece is trying to argue that cycling causes depression? Am I wrong here?

Not exactly, what I'm pointing out is that this article could be related to any demographic group, it's vague and non specific, the linked articles are not related specifically to cycling and none of them give examples of case studies or actual medical research carried out by professional bodies or even individuals that even comes close to backing up the very bold title statement. The article can be interpreted in many ways, the way I interpret it is that it's sensationalist sh1te singling out one sport that doping takes place in and making a point that in some cases it has "possibly" lead to individuals taking their own lives.

petethedrummer

WillyFXP wrote: »

I beg to differ, the articles title "Cycling's longstanding, predictable and troubling relationship with depression" would appear to directly relate cycling to depression. The actual article talks about some cyclists who have committed suicide and attempts to justify the relationship between the two, which it clearly doesn't.

He's discussing the relationship. I don't think he blames cycling per se. And he is not suggesting that if you go out and ride your bike you will get depressed.

He seems to suggest that some of the practices in professional cycling exacerbate the effect on those vulnerable to depression. That seems like a reasonable postulation to me but we can agree to disagree over that. If you interfere with your hormones and brain chemistry for 10-15 years in a physically brutal sport which is know to have very poor welfare structures, that's got to have an effect on your psychological well being. Or maybe I'm wrong and it doesn't.

My one criticism would be that he doesn't address whether the correlation is any worse than in any other sport or career path. Is it a problem particular to a few sports and careers. If it is, then it needs to be discussed within those sports. If it's not particular to cycling, then maybe cycling shouldn't be singled out.

petethedrummer

WillyFXP wrote: »

Not exactly, what I'm pointing out is that this article could be related to any demographic group, it's vague and non specific.

Ah now we're in agreement. It is the criticism I have also.

Pro wrestling has a problem with suicides and early deaths. Yes, it's not a sport! But much like cycling, historically it has very bad physical and mental welfare systems for the participants. The performers like cycling are pretty much on a perform or get fired contract. And it is about the only "sport" that has been worse than cycling for doping.

Harrybelafonte

I think anyone who has read Pantani biography would make the same connection Pete is talking about.

WillyFXP

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I think anyone who has read Pantani biography would make the same connection Pete is talking about.

or Spike Milligan, Stephen Fry, Kurt Cobain, Frank Bruno, Adam Ant, yada yada yada

Harrybelafonte

WillyFXP wrote: »

or Spike Milligan, Stephen Fry, Kurt Cobain, Frank Bruno, Adam Ant, yada yada yada

You're being facetious now.

WillyFXP

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

You're being facetious now.

Probably, but point made.

Harrybelafonte

WillyFXP wrote: »

Probably, but point made.

Your point does not invalidate the article, nor the questions it raises.

WillyFXP

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Your point does not invalidate the article, nor the questions it raises.

I didn't say it did, what I gave was my personal opinion on the article, which I have already pointed out.

dave_o_brien

The article says that professional sport, and the pressure associated with it, can exacerbate an individuals vulnerability to sickness.

So, people who score high in a stress-vulnerability model, who are more susceptible to being manipulated and pressurised, are more naturally inclined to suffer from illness when manipulated and stressed. Some of these types of personalities cycle.

As pointed out, some also wrestle. Some work in banks. Some are great baristas, and some are priests. It has nothing to do with cycling.

Also, "overtraining syndrome and clinical depression involve remarkably similar signs and symptoms, brain structures, neurotransmitters, endocrine pathways and immune responses". This is absolutely not the same as saying "overtraining causes depression".

12 sprocket

dave_o_brien wrote: »

The article says that professional sport, and the pressure associated with it, can exacerbate an individuals vulnerability to sickness.

So, people who score high in a stress-vulnerability model, who are more susceptible to being manipulated and pressurised, are more naturally inclined to suffer from illness when manipulated and stressed. Some of these types of personalities cycle.

As pointed out, some also wrestle. Some work in banks. Some are great baristas, and some are priests. It has nothing to do with cycling.

Also, "overtraining syndrome and clinical depression involve remarkably similar signs and symptoms, brain structures, neurotransmitters, endocrine pathways and immune responses". This is absolutely not the same as saying "overtraining causes depression".

If it walks like a duck sounds like a duck etc etc..... its often a duck

petethedrummer

dave_o_brien

12 sprocket wrote: »

If it walks like a duck sounds like a duck etc etc..... its often a duck

Except when it's not a duck.

Also, in this comparison, fatigue would be the duck.

What I mean by that is that if a patient present with lethargy, lack of enthusiasm, listlessness, sorrow, etc, the first diagnosis would be fatigue. Diet, physical health, level of physical stress undertaken, etc., would be evaluated.

Depression would be the platypus; it's really not likely to be clinical depression.

EDIT: I am not suggesting depression is going to not enter the head of the doctor; medicine will work on the most obvious solution being the most likely one, and will eliminate the obvious solutions methodically. To use an animal comparison: if you hear hooves, you assume horses. You never suspect zebra's first.

Harrybelafonte

So, basically

1. People suffer from depression
2. People cycle

Therefore,

3. People who cycle can suffer from depression
4. The article hasn't convinced anyone that those who cycle (professionaly or not) are at a greater risk of depression than any others
5. However, some have suggested that the pressures of pro cycling can exacerbate potential depressive episodes or those more at risj of depression.

Why don't we discuss point 5 then? In relation to pros and the common amateur races and the pressures and shortcomings of the competitive element of their lives and the supports around them. We can assume other sports have the same issues, but this is a cycling forum after all.

Chips Lovell

pprendeville wrote: »

I also feel that after a hard week or two on the bike my mood begins to alter. Anyone else in the same boat? While this article focuses more on depression related to doping I do think their is a case for depression and overtraining.

I think it's like a lot of things, it's possible to both over-do and under-do it. In the same way that doctors often prescribe exercise to people with depression, it's possible to go overboard too.

I don't know if the example's of ex-pros is really relevant though, since there are a whole load of other considerations there such as doping, pressure to perform, consequences of fame etc.

12 sprocket

dave_o_brien wrote: »

Except when it's not a duck.

Also, in this comparison, fatigue would be the duck.

What I mean by that is that if a patient present with lethargy, lack of enthusiasm, listlessness, sorrow, etc, the first diagnosis would be fatigue. Diet, physical health, level of physical stress undertaken, etc., would be evaluated.

Depression would be the platypus; it's really not likely to be clinical depression.

EDIT: I am not suggesting depression is going to not enter the head of the doctor; medicine will work on the most obvious solution being the most likely one, and will eliminate the obvious solutions methodically. To use an animal comparison: if you hear hooves, you assume horses. You never suspect zebra's first.

Theres a lot being assumed there, i imagine different doctors might give different diagnosis to begin with. Unless your a medic should you really be giving opinions on medical matters?

dave_o_brien

12 sprocket wrote: »

Theres a lot being assumed there, i imagine different doctors might give different diagnosis to begin with. Unless your a medic should you really be giving opinions on medical matters?

Did I make assumptions about a hypothetical person with hypothetical symptoms?

Yes.

Am I a medic/doctor?

No.

Are the symptoms of depression most often easily explained by other diagnoses?

Yes.

How do I know this?

My depression and it's diagnosis; the advice of a family member who is a psychologists; the advice of doctors with whom I have personal experience. In short, I don't know, but I am reasonably confident.

Would a different doctors diagnosis differ?

Based on the above, no.

Am I offering medical advice to any individual?

Christ on a bike, no!


What makes you imagine that doctors would diagnose such matters differently?

tunguska

I think you could apply what was said in that article to a lot of sports, I dont think its indigenous to cycling. I think sportsmen at the very high end of things are basically treated like machines. Their lives are very one-dimensional and basically all their eggs are in one basket which is not a healthy place to be. Maybe when they're winning things are good but when the inevitable injury occurs they realise how unbalanced their lives are and it can be devastating. Add to that how these athletes are used by the people around them, I mean nobody really cares about the individual themselves as a person, they only care about their fitness and their ability to perform. Its a brutal world to live in.
So much is put into an athletes physical dimension but little or nothing is given to their emotional/mental wellbeing and I think so long as that continues to be the case then there'll always be depression and suicide in sport at the elite level.

12 sprocket

dave_o_brien wrote: »

Did I make assumptions about a hypothetical person with hypothetical symptoms?

Yes.

Am I a medic/doctor?

No.

Are the symptoms of depression most often easily explained by other diagnoses?

Yes.

How do I know this?

My depression and it's diagnosis; the advice of a family member who is a psychologists; the advice of doctors with whom I have personal experience. In short, I don't know, but I am reasonably confident.

Would a different doctors diagnosis differ?

Based on the above, no.

Am I offering medical advice to any individual?

Christ on a bike, no!


What makes you imagine that doctors would diagnose such matters differently?

Dave, Just the fact that they often make different diagnosis and its often a matter of elimination.
I respect your experience and perhaps your experience is the norm to be expected with the issue.