Moving

matty1994

Ok so im moving to the UK(london) in june, i dont intend on selling any of my guns(big kid at heart) and want to bring them with me, do i need to get a ukara before i take them with me or is it ok because i already own/possess them? any help would be greatly appreciated

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

Ok so im moving to the UK(london) in june, i dont intend on selling any of my guns(big kid at heart) and want to bring them with me, do i need to get a ukara before i take them with me or is it ok because i already own/possess them? any help would be greatly appreciated

Ok, first things first; you do not need to "get a UKARA", and here is why:

The VCRA* provides what is called a "skirmisher defence" for airsofters to allow the purchase and/or importation of airsoft guns or major "looks like a gun" component parts thereof. The important word in that term is the word defence; it is not an exemption. What that means that although the defence exists, it is up to you, the airsofter, to satisfy the powers that be that you are entitled to avail of it.

To prove that you can avail of the skirmisher defence, there are several ways to do so as HMRC have not specified any particular method that they want above all else. Ways to do so include, although are by no means restricted to:

• Providing details of site membership
• UKARA membership
• Being able to prove activity through event attendance within a given year
• Employee of an airsoft retailer

Those are the means that spring to mind first, although I'm sure I could think of a few more if pushed.

Now, about UKARA membership. The scheme was created by UK retailers to allow them to continue selling airsoft guns without falling foul of the VCRA. That it has a secondary effect for players was an after-thought. To get membership, you must prove that you have played three times or more, in no less than two months at a site. Usually this entails some form of site membership and you'll find that your UKARA number is suspiciously like .... your site membership number.

All that said and done, to import guns into the UK (as opposed to bring in to attend an event as a tourist) UKARA membership is the path of least resistance all told. You will also find that some retailers will not sell to you without providing a UKARA number. So, unless you are confident that you can show HMRC without reasonable doubt that you are an active airsofter, I would perhaps consider leaving your guns at home initially and then bringing them in a couple of months later.

matty1994

well what i had planned on doing was moving over, leaving the guns at a friends house here, get a ukara then return and bring them over once i have my ukara, im more of a collector but just this time ill have to play lol, thanks for the info though:) say i worked for a retailer though over here, would that allow me to bring them?

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

well what i had planned on doing was moving over, leaving the guns at a friends house here, get a ukara then return and bring them over once i have my ukara, im more of a collector but just this time ill have to play lol, thanks for the info though:) say i worked for a retailer though over here, would that allow me to bring them?

Don't think about spoofing HMRC; if they check and you're found out to be chancing your arm, you will be f*cked several ways from Sunday. They have more power than the police so you would be wise to remember that. But if you actually do work for a retailer than by all means check with them if they would be willing to confirm such and prove it with written documentation.

Collectors & plinkers were most definitely left out in the cold regards the VCRA, but the option was no airsoft so the skirmisher defence was conceived for good or for bad and that's what is in place now. So the only way you'll be able to bring your stuff into the UK now is by proving your eligibility to avail of the defence; and that means getting in some play time.

Oh, one other thing: UKARA membership is issued for twelve months at a time, so it does expire.

matty1994

i think ill paly it safe in that case so and just go and get a ukara, easiest all round option, and hey might even become a regular skirmisher lol:P

matty1994

going to cost me nearly E200 to play 3 games:O

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

going to cost me nearly E200 to play 3 games:O

what are the rental/game fees?

matty1994

£25 to get in and £30 for rental gear, be worth it though and the site would be like 16 miles from where im moving too

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

£25 to get in and £30 for rental gear, be worth it though and the site would be like 16 miles from where im moving too

That sounds incredibly high. Are you sure it's not £30 for rentals?

matty1994

nope £25 to go and £30 to rent gear

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

nope £25 to go and £30 to rent gear

That is obscene. What site is it?

My local site (nowhere near London before you ask ... ) is £25 for hires, including the green fee, and a £10 deposit.

matty1994

Lemming wrote: »

That is obscene. What site is it?

My local site (nowhere near London before you ask ... ) is £25 for hires, including the green fee, and a £10 deposit.

Bunker 21?

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

Bunker 21?

Never heard of it nor can I find it on google.

Whilst hire fees up to £40/45 are fairly common, £55 seems excessive to say the least. Are you sure that some of that is not a refundable security deposit?

matty1994

Lemming wrote: »

Never heard of it nor can I find it on google.

Whilst hire fees up to £40/45 are fairly common, £55 seems excessive to say the least. Are you sure that some of that is not a refundable security deposit?

Bunker 51 sorry

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

Bunker 51 sorry

Use the Airbana airsoft map.

I see that Bunker 51 are associated with Wolf Armouries - which says enough for me regards the prices. For the sake of less than an hours travel in pretty much any direction out of London you can find some good sites.

The two that I've played within the greater London region are The Mall in Redding (and yes, it's an old shopping centre ... ) and AWA Herts which is a pretty well run woodland site. By all means check Bunker 51 out, but there are enough offerings in the home counties that you don't need to plump for the closest if it's not the one you're happiest with. One thing that you will need to get around your head is that in the UK you may have to travel some considerable distances to visit the airsoft sites that you want to visit.

matty1994

Lemming wrote: »

Use the Airbana airsoft map.

I see that Bunker 51 are associated with Wolf Armouries - which says enough for me regards the prices. For the sake of less than an hours travel in pretty much any direction out of London you can find some good sites.

The two that I've played within the greater London region are The Mall in Redding (and yes, it's an old shopping centre ... ) and AWA Herts which is a pretty well run woodland site. By all means check Bunker 51 out, but there are enough offerings in the home counties that you don't need to plump for the closest if it's not the one you're happiest with. One thing that you will need to get around your head is that in the UK you may have to travel some considerable distances to visit the airsoft sites that you want to visit.

Ill check some out, its just the closest and first site to pop up so i went with it, but as for distances its an hour to my nearest site here so makes no odds to me, once i get my ukara ill probably only go once a month if even, btw can my ukara expire if i dont play in a long while?

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

Ill check some out, its just the closest and first site to pop up so i went with it, but as for distances its an hour to my nearest site here so makes no odds to me, once i get my ukara ill probably only go once a month if even, btw can my ukara expire if i dont play in a long while?

Your UKARA membership has to be renewed yearly. You'll be notified in advance by about a month. Just get your play time in during the year and you'll be fine. Get the form, get the site to stamp it, then send it in and job done.

UKARA will only make a difference when buying/selling/importing (or otherwise coming & going from the country), but otherwise has no bearing on your ownership of airsoft guns assuming you are over 18 years of age.

matty1994

Lemming wrote: »

Your UKARA membership has to be renewed yearly. You'll be notified in advance by about a month. Just get your play time in during the year and you'll be fine. Get the form, get the site to stamp it, then send it in and job done.

UKARA will only make a difference when buying/selling/importing (or otherwise coming & going from the country), but otherwise has no bearing on your ownership of airsoft guns assuming you are over 18 years of age.

Ah ok thanks for all the help mate, really apreciate it:) and im 20 this year so no worries there:P and i hope to be a monthly skirmisher if possible:)

OzCam

If I might add two three small points to Lemming's excellent advice:

1. One of the VCRA "defence" options is to prove you're a regular skirmisher. The way I do this is to keep a log book and carry it in the case. It's just a little notebook with the dates & places in it. Anyone who asks can see my playing history.

2. One disadvantage of the UKARA system of needing to play x times in y months is that some sites fall into the trap of feeling that they "own" the player and get snotty if they see you playing somewhere else. Not everyone does it, but its something to be aware of.

3. I've always found both HMRC and plod absolutely fine to deal with. Have your paperwork in order, be civil and don't spoof. Every time an airsofter is nice to them, the next airsofter starts off on the right foot.

Lemming

I hadn't noticed that I never explained what the VCRA is; it's the Violent Crime Reduction Act (2007), which saw airsoft guns classified under two categories;

• IF - Imitation Firearm: you'll see them as "two-tone" neon coloured guns, not restricted in sales to anyone over the age of 18; because clearly everyone can tell that a gun painted in a neon colour is not real and non-threatening :rolleyes:
• RIF - Realistic Imitation Firearm: the non two-tone variety (i.e. what the rest of us play with) and very much restricted under the VCRA

Now, the VCRA provides exemption for re-enactors and film/tv production. Airsofters, for whom airsoft guns were intended, don't get any exemption because that would be far, far too sensible; instead we got the desperately tacked on "Skirmisher defence" since the other option was "no airsoft".

To be clear on something here for anyone thinking they'll be smart and two-tone their guns temporarily; think again. As soon as you respray a two-tone gun, and it stops being a two-tone gun, you've gone from IF to RIF and all of legal baggage associated.

OzCam

• RIF - Real Realistic Imitation Firearm

FIFY

matty1994

Can i ask what "hmrc" is?

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

Can i ask what "hmrc" is?

"Her Majesties Revenue & Customs"

matty1994

Lemming wrote: »

"Her Majesties Revenue & Customs"

What does ozcam mean sith his 3rd point?

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

What does ozcam mean sith his 3rd point?

Because it will most likely be HMRC, and/or possibly port/airport police that you ever have to deal with if you are coming & going from the UK with airsoft kit, or having stuff posted into the UK.

Once you do not act like a complete raving lunatic, you're off to a good start because they may not know the ins & outs of airsoft legality and will be assessing what you say using the tried & tested "bullsh1t-ometre". Not acting like a lunatic lowers the chances of HMRC/police doubting what you're saying in that instance. Or just rubbing them up the wrong way for that matter. If you can then make your case in a well-informed, to the point, confident & authoritative manner, you have more than half the battle won whenever you need to deal with them.

matty1994

Lemming wrote: »

Because it will most likely be HMRC, and/or possibly port/airport police that you ever have to deal with if you are coming & going from the UK with airsoft kit, or having stuff posted into the UK.

Once you do not act like a complete raving lunatic, you're off to a good start. If you can make your case in a well-informed, to the point, confident & authoritative manner, you have more than half the battle won whenever you need to deal with them.

ah i see now thank you, im new to all this english law with airsoft so thats why ive asked so many questions, but thanks for all the help really appreciate it

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

ah i see now thank you, im new to all this english law with airsoft so thats why ive asked so many questions, but thanks for all the help really appreciate it

English law regards airsoft is in a better place (the merits/demerits of the "skirmisher defence" not withstanding) than Irish law, so what I'm saying regards how you deal with HMRC or the police is common sense and goes equally for airport/airline/ferry/train/whatever staff too.

For example, I order an airsoft gun from abroad. HMRC will stop it and contact me for proof of defence. I provide said proof (usually my UKARA number) and goods get released for delivery with a customs charge if one is owed. Or I fly into the UK with airsoft guns and they're held when I go to pick up my baggage and a similar process happens; if you give no drama, you'll get little drama in return unless you are unfortunate enough to end up dealing with an absolute jobsworth. The big difference between Ireland & the UK in that case is that you would have law on yourside and not be relying on an arbitrary "I don't like de look o dat der now" attitude.

matty1994

Lemming wrote: »

English law regards airsoft is in a better place (the merits/demerits of the "skirmisher defence" not withstanding) than Irish law, so what I'm saying regards how you deal with HMRC or the police is common sense and goes equally for airport/airline/ferry/train/whatever staff too.

Oh definatly ,i wont be messing around or acting the maggot, id have my ukara, im going to do like a skirmishing log book like was said before and have all correct paperwork and partially dissasemble the rifs, found out that getting them couriered over from my friends is the cheapest option, is that viable or will paperwork have to be shown?

Lemming

matty1994 wrote: »

Oh definatly ,i wont be messing around or acting the maggot, id have my ukara, im going to do like a skirmishing log book like was said before and have all correct paperwork and partially dissasemble the rifs, found out that getting them couriered over from my friends is the cheapest option, is that viable or will paperwork have to be shown?

If you have site membership or UKARA membership, having the likes of a log book or disassembling RIFs is complete overkill to satisfy HMRC. Doesn't hurt to have a logbook either mind you, but the likelihood of ever neeeding to wave it about is slim in the UK. You may or may also not end up needing to disassemble RIFs to satisfy a courier, but that's another matter and one that's subject to the courier that you use.

Having a logbook or being able to show IAA membership probably isn't a bad idea for Irish bodies, but if you have site membership in the UK and/or UKARA membership, it's not really necessary other than to perhaps assuage the most cynical and distrusting jobsworth that you're not telling them porkies.

The last point- and this is important when dealing with any mail/courier/ferry/aviation/etc. company - is if someone asks you to show paperwork for airsoft guns, there is none. They are classified as toys (or RIFS in the UK), and as such there is no paperwork either legally required for them, or legally drafted for them. They are not firearms.

matty1994

Lemming wrote: »

If you have site membership or UKARA membership, having the likes of a log book or disassembling RIFs is complete overkill to satisfy HMRC. Doesn't hurt to have a logbook either mind you, but the likelihood of ever neeeding to wave it about is slim in the UK. You may or may also not end up needing to disassemble RIFs to satisfy a courier, but that's another matter and one that's subject to the courier that you use.

Having a logbook or being able to show IAA membership probably isn't a bad idea for Irish bodies, but if you have site membership in the UK and/or UKARA membership, it's not really necessary other than to perhaps assuage the most cynical and distrusting jobsworth that you're not telling them porkies.

The last point- and this is important when dealing with any mail/courier/ferry/aviation/etc. company - is if someone asks you to show paperwork for airsoft guns, there is none. They are classified as toys (or RIFS in the UK), and as such there is no paperwork either legally required for them, or legally drafted for them. They are not firearms.

Well id rather go for overkill just to make sure ive covered myself in every way possible, for courier i wont need to dissasemble as ive always used them for shipping airsoft rifs through ireland, so no problem there, just want to cover my ass as theres the guts of 1000 worth of gear thats going to be transported so

glenn5781

I am not sure how far you are from the north but if you are near the border you could play a few times at a sight in Northern Ireland before you go and have the UKARA sorted out in advance.

matty1994

i have thought about that as im only in cavan but its a bit much hastle when i dont drive and would need lifts up and back