sheep profits

farmingmad10

I've a question for sheep farmers how much net profit/ha would sheep leave or net profit/ewe. I am thinking of getting into sheep am wondering how much money can be made though?

simx

farmingmad10 wrote: »

I've a question for sheep farmers how much net profit/ha would sheep leave or net profit/ewe. I am thinking of getting into sheep am wondering how much money can be made though?

I have even said that dangerous statement before " I am thinking of getting into sheep"

farmingmad10

We are dairy beef & tillage I wouldn't be buying alot of them now but we're thinking a few would work well over the winter on stubbles.

Username John

farmingmad10 wrote: »

We are dairy beef & tillage I wouldn't be buying alot of them now but we're thinking a few would work well over the winter on stubbles.

I assume you have the place fenced for sheep?

Buying store lambs to feed - i dunno how / if lads make money at it...
You'd want a lot to make any money. And only having a few, is more hassle than they're worth IMO.

Can you let the ground to some local sheep farmer to winter ewes on for a few weeks? You would make as much...

Username John

Here's a question tho...

In the sheep forum, it was posted that rape is excellent for finishing lambs. (I have never grown it, so can't comment)

So - could you put in a rape (or rape hybrid as it would be a bit late after harvest) crop on the stubble?

I have seen people comment that the tonnage of the next cereal crop is very muchreduced when a catch crop is grown. Is this the case more so for cattle grazing (and so causing soil structure damage)

Would the same reduction on tonnage be seen even if sheep were grazing does anyone know?

DMAXMAN

farmingmad10 wrote: »

I've a question for sheep farmers how much net profit/ha would sheep leave or net profit/ewe. I am thinking of getting into sheep am wondering how much money can be made though?

our rough figures are; selling 1.6 lambs /ewe. average price last year 98 euro. march lambing so no meal usually. creep feed single lambs. rest fattened off grass and forage rape sown after w.barley. costs are ;replacement 25 /ewe/year. feed +fodder 25 vet,meds etc12. fert 10.ram replacement 3. miscellaneous 10. our forage costs are probably low as we outwinter on stubbles , beet tops and rape, and only go in for lambing. we use 25 bales silage for 165 ewes. also we keep our own barley and oats and just buy soya and minerals forration. remember if you are going to keep sheep you need really good fences, its the rock a lot of lads perished on!

farmingmad10

DMAXMAN wrote: »

our rough figures are; selling 1.6 lambs /ewe. average price last year 98 euro. march lambing so no meal usually. creep feed single lambs. rest fattened off grass and forage rape sown after w.barley. costs are ;replacement 25 /ewe/year. feed +fodder 25 vet,meds etc12. fert 10.ram replacement 3. miscellaneous 10. our forage costs are probably low as we outwinter on stubbles , beet tops and rape, and only go in for lambing. we use 25 bales silage for 165 ewes. also we keep our own barley and oats and just buy soya and minerals forration. remember if you are going to keep sheep you need really good fences, its the rock a lot of lads perished on!

Thanks. I was thinking maybe €50 net profit/ewe or could their be more made? I looked up teagasc just their a while ago they said the target for the best sheep farmers is to keep variable costs/lamb at 30 or less & fixed/lamb at €35 or less. So that would cost €65/lamb so a ewe weaning 1.5 lambs would cost €97.50c at a lamb price of €95 1.5 lambs would have an output value of €142.50c-€97.50c that leaves a net profit of €45/ewe. Jes you would want to carry a good lot of ewes/ha to make good profit. 12 ewes/ha which teagasc say the better farms are stocked at. That would leave €540/ha net profit. That's not bad lads. That would be more than what beef farmers would make. I might invest in some the top dairy men make €1,000/ha net profit but look at the more hours they'd have to put in. Sheep not a bad earner & would be a good enterprise to get into.

farmingmad10

It costs €346/ha to grow stubble turnips. It can graze 100 sheep for 40 days

tomwaterford

How many Ha for 100 sheep for 40 days??

farmingmad10

tomwaterford wrote: »

How many Ha for 100 sheep for 40 days??

1 hectare.

dave747

[QUOTE=farmingmad10;88695607 I looked up teagasc just their a while ago they said the target for the best sheep farmers is to keep variable costs/lamb at 30 or less & fixed/lamb at €35 or less. So that would cost €65/lamb so a ewe weaning 1.5 lambs would cost €97.50c at a lamb price of €95 1.5 lambs would have an output value of €142.50c-€97.50c that leaves a net profit of €45/ewe. Jes you would want to carry a good lot of ewes/ha to make good profit. 12 ewes/ha which teagasc say the better farms are stocked at. That would leave €540/ha net profit [/QUOTE]

them figures look good on paper achieving them a dif story . if you get a year like last year, extra feeding, losing lambs cause of the weather and poor enuff prices at times, you wont have much profit. Takes a very good lamb to get E95.

Not trying to put you off getting sheep or anything but wouldnt be getting them based on teagasc figures

rancher

farmingmad10 wrote: »

Thanks. I was thinking maybe €50 net profit/ewe or could their be more made? I looked up teagasc just their a while ago they said the target for the best sheep farmers is to keep variable costs/lamb at 30 or less & fixed/lamb at €35 or less. So that would cost €65/lamb so a ewe weaning 1.5 lambs would cost €97.50c at a lamb price of €95 1.5 lambs would have an output value of €142.50c-€97.50c that leaves a net profit of €45/ewe. Jes you would want to carry a good lot of ewes/ha to make good profit. 12 ewes/ha which teagasc say the better farms are stocked at. That would leave €540/ha net profit. That's not bad lads. That would be more than what beef farmers would make. I might invest in some the top dairy men make €1,000/ha net profit but look at the more hours they'd have to put in. Sheep not a bad earner & would be a good enterprise to get into.

You'd be doing everything well to get €50/ewe, at present prices on good land you should average €40/ewe, but you have to be set up and there's not much spare money to do fencing, housing, and handling unit.
Good sheep farmers are doing better than good suckler farmers and sheep farming requires less capital.
Dairy farming is much busier, once lambing is over here, the sheep only take two days a week to look after them( short ones at that) so you cant expect to get the same as milk.
If you do decide on sheep, get the best dog you can...you're at nothing if you don't

DMAXMAN

Username John wrote: »

Here's a question tho...

In the sheep forum, it was posted that rape is excellent for finishing lambs. (I have never grown it, so can't comment)

So - could you put in a rape (or rape hybrid as it would be a bit late after harvest) crop on the stubble?

I have seen people comment that the tonnage of the next cereal crop is very muchreduced when a catch crop is grown. Is this the case more so for cattle grazing (and so causing soil structure damage)

Would the same reduction on tonnage be seen even if sheep were grazing does anyone know?

growing rape will actually improve the crop of corn you grow afterwards versus just growing it n stubble ground. ground is rich after a good crop of rape almost as good as after a break. if sowing rape you have to sow it early( we reckon august bank holiday weekend as the latest). its too expensive to grow if you don't get a good crop

adne

How do you go about getting your herd number updated to allow for stocking sheep. Is it the same number?

hugo29

adne wrote: »

How do you go about getting your herd number updated to allow for stocking sheep. Is it the same number?

are sheep tagged now, its been 20 years since sheep were seen on this farm,

adne

hugo29 wrote: »

are sheep tagged now, its been 20 years since sheep were seen on this farm,

No idea hugo, hopefully some of the shepards will come online and let us know

dave747

yep all sheep over 12mths have to have an electronic tag now and keep the same number from first tagging till sale.

farmingmad10

rancher wrote: »

You'd be doing everything well to get €50/ewe, at present prices on good land you should average €40/ewe, but you have to be set up and there's not much spare money to do fencing, housing, and handling unit.
Good sheep farmers are doing better than good suckler farmers and sheep farming requires less capital.
Dairy farming is much busier, once lambing is over here, the sheep only take two days a week to look after them( short ones at that) so you cant expect to get the same as milk.
If you do decide on sheep, get the best dog you can...you're at nothing if you don't

Would their be any money in them at all?? Seen teagasc figures on another site & it said that net profit from ewes you would be doing well to make €20/ewe. That's not alot. Thank god I don't depend on sheep or beef don't know how I'd live without dairy cows. Them is worrying figures for sheep tho was shocked to hear that you would make only €20 off 1 ewe. So that means if you had 800 ewes you would only make €16,000. I don't know if their are sheep farmers out their making a living from sheep alone but if they are well done as I don't know how you possibly would have enough to pay taxes loans pensions living expenses. You would definitely want an off farm job with sheep.

farmingmad10

I was thinking of getting some ewes thought they would work well cleaning out a few paddocks after the cows & winter on stubbles but when I hear that I'd be doing well to make only 20 ****ing euro I don't think they would be a good buy. I wouldn't have a big interest in sheep or anything like their is alot of aul tasks with them over the year too like lambing shearing dipping footbathing etc & for a return of only €20 are they worth all that. Their is alot of young farmers coming out of college now & its amazing from what I heard about them not wanting to go do their 3 month work placement on a sheep farm.

Miname

farmingmad10 wrote: »

I was thinking of getting some ewes thought they would work well cleaning out a few paddocks after the cows & winter on stubbles but when I hear that I'd be doing well to make only 20 ****ing euro I don't think they would be a good buy. I wouldn't have a big interest in sheep or anything like their is alot of aul tasks with them over the year too like lambing shearing dipping footbathing etc & for a return of only €20 are they worth all that. Their is alot of young farmers coming out of college now & its amazing from what I heard about them not wanting to go do their 3 month work placement on a sheep farm.

I don't actually know why you post, you seem to have it all worked out. You seem to be milking a vast amount already, finishing 250 bulls and now your considering sheep. Sell everything and don't be worried about everyone else's income. Do you know if you were to develop roadways through your farm you could sell every half acre for at least 50k it would probably get you the most money

rancher

farmingmad10 wrote: »

I was thinking of getting some ewes thought they would work well cleaning out a few paddocks after the cows & winter on stubbles but when I hear that I'd be doing well to make only 20 ****ing euro I don't think they would be a good buy. I wouldn't have a big interest in sheep or anything like their is alot of aul tasks with them over the year too like lambing shearing dipping footbathing etc & for a return of only €20 are they worth all that. Their is alot of young farmers coming out of college now & its amazing from what I heard about them not wanting to go do their 3 month work placement on a sheep farm.

I'd love to have that post to quote back at you in 5 years time, you're in your sheltered sector at the moment making little of our enterprise.....you're in for a huge wake up call.
I'd average around €40/ewe but there's loads of scope to improve that, I don't feed silage so doing that could improve margin by €5/ewe+ (cause I don't like hard work) I buy my meal in bags delivered ( cause I don't like hard work)so that's another €5/ewe possible. and I don't bother reseeding,
Apart from march/april they take two days/week so there's a life style to them and no muck and ****e and they don't pollute the neighbours with a smell.
Have to go out now to start my days work, but will be finished by 11....am

Box09

rancher wrote: »

I'd love to have that post to quote back at you in 5 years time, you're in your sheltered sector at the moment making little of our enterprise.....you're in for a huge wake up call.
I'd average around €40/ewe but there's loads of scope to improve that, I don't feed silage so doing that could improve margin by €5/ewe+ (cause I don't like hard work) I buy my meal in bags delivered ( cause I don't like hard work)so that's another €5/ewe possible. and I don't bother reseeding,
Apart from march/april they take two days/week so there's a life style to them and no muck and ****e and they don't pollute the neighbours with a smell.
Have to go out now to start my days work, but will be finished by 11....am

Great post:D

Cran

rancher wrote: »

I'd love to have that post to quote back at you in 5 years time, you're in your sheltered sector at the moment making little of our enterprise.....you're in for a huge wake up call.
I'd average around €40/ewe but there's loads of scope to improve that, I don't feed silage so doing that could improve margin by €5/ewe+ (cause I don't like hard work) I buy my meal in bags delivered ( cause I don't like hard work)so that's another €5/ewe possible. and I don't bother reseeding,
Apart from march/april they take two days/week so there's a life style to them and no muck and ****e and they don't pollute the neighbours with a smell.
Have to go out now to start my days work, but will be finished by 11....am

Love this post:D
I think off all sectors currently, sheep is the one where there is a huge difference between top and bottom, while also room for improvements across the board. I recently said what my weaning rate was at group meeting. Two men to right laughed and said theres is no way you getting that rate, younger guy to left said to me you have bit of room for improvement there...

Conmaicne Mara

farmingmad10 wrote: »

Would their be any money in them at all?? Seen teagasc figures on another site & it said that net profit from ewes you would be doing well to make €20/ewe. That's not alot. Thank god I don't depend on sheep or beef don't know how I'd live without dairy cows. Them is worrying figures for sheep tho was shocked to hear that you would make only €20 off 1 ewe. So that means if you had 800 ewes you would only make €16,000. I don't know if their are sheep farmers out their making a living from sheep alone but if they are well done as I don't know how you possibly would have enough to pay taxes loans pensions living expenses. You would definitely want an off farm job with sheep.

I wouldn't believe all you read from Teagasc. Can tell you there's no money in hill sheep though. The short report from Bantry I heard was Teagasc say light lambs aren't worth feeding, Factory say they can sell them but won't get paid for them, and the Department want a ****load of them to keep hills in GAEC.

Nice happy uncomplicated situation

ferryman35

Would it be fair to say that the Teagasc figures represent the potential return with things done in a certain way? Where do people find the discrepancy between teagasc figures and actual on the ground results?

Is the lamb performance / weights...ie selling price or is it getting to the magic 1.6 lambs per ewe?

Conmaicne Mara

ferryman35 wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that the Teagasc figures represent the potential return with things done in a certain way? Where do people find the discrepancy between teagasc figures and actual on the ground results?

Is the lamb performance / weights...ie selling price or is it getting to the magic 1.6 lambs per ewe?

They do their figures on the basis of info sent back to them by some farmers, not all farmers. So their stats are based on those farmers and may not be truly representative.

I found the hill sheep numbers in Athenry last year to be no where near representative of my hill sheep farm. The variation there depends on type of hill, available hectares and quality of fenced land, plus management style.

I also believe the BETTER farms have been somewhat cherry picked. I've only been on one BETTER hill farm but his holding was reseeded and a lot of it mowable, and his hill was probably better than my holding.

I know another of the BETTER hill farms has a massive excess of available grazing as well.

dave747

was at a teagasc event one time and they were showing off these figures, great weaning rate per ewe and low mortality rates and an auld lad in the corner stood up and asked where were all the foster lambs they bought off him after going

farmingmad10

rancher wrote: »

I'd love to have that post to quote back at you in 5 years time, you're in your sheltered sector at the moment making little of our enterprise.....you're in for a huge wake up call.
I'd average around €40/ewe but there's loads of scope to improve that, I don't feed silage so doing that could improve margin by €5/ewe+ (cause I don't like hard work) I buy my meal in bags delivered ( cause I don't like hard work)so that's another €5/ewe possible. and I don't bother reseeding,
Apart from march/april they take two days/week so there's a life style to them and no muck and ****e and they don't pollute the neighbours with a smell.
Have to go out now to start my days work, but will be finished by 11....am

Im not running down a sheep enterprise at all lots of sheep farmers in ireland. But as regards making a living out of them on their own without other sources of income I think it would be very difficult

farmingmad10

Miname wrote: »

I don't actually know why you post, you seem to have it all worked out. You seem to be milking a vast amount already, finishing 250 bulls and now your considering sheep. Sell everything and don't be worried about everyone else's income. Do you know if you were to develop roadways through your farm you could sell every half acre for at least 50k it would probably get you the most money

That's a v big IF though

Farmer Pudsey

Username John wrote: »

I assume you have the place fenced for sheep?

Buying store lambs to feed - i dunno how / if lads make money at it...
You'd want a lot to make any money. And only having a few, is more hassle than they're worth IMO.

Can you let the ground to some local sheep farmer to winter ewes on for a few weeks? You would make as much...

Store lambs is all about timing and how you overwinter. I keep a few now and again for the freezer. The good lads at it have access to virtually free grazing for the winter. Loads of dairy farmers with heavy ground want it cleaned of until after Christmas. The biggest issue is handling you may need to dose every 4-6 weeks or else have high losses.

Feeding large amounts of ration nowadays is a no-no. One farmers back 10+ years ago was feeding whole oats ( bought it off the combine) ad-lib. I was wondering if they would sh!t much out( found out after that sheep can digest it all nearly) as at the time the oats was coming in at about 60% of the price of the ration his opinion was that they could **** away.

Myself I found that if you fed about 1kg to 3 or 4 lambs you ended up with heavy lambs the middle/end of march. i used to buy at 25 kgs I think and generally they would kill heavier than that.

ferryman35

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I wouldn't believe all you read from Teagasc. Can tell you there's no money in hill sheep though. The short report from Bantry I heard was Teagasc say light lambs aren't worth feeding, Factory say they can sell them but won't get paid for them"

Nice happy uncomplicated situation

Could that be because what you produce is actually a specialised / niche product and its potential / value isn't recognisable in a conventional high volume system which treats everything it processes as a standard product.

Obviously then targets and figures designed for the standard production system don't apply.....your production system is limited by what is physically possible first of all & then what is actually permitted? And because of how your lambs graze they will really be a totally different product to one that gets a mouthful of grass everytime it lowers its head??

I'm puzzled by the figures discussed here....if in a 'standard' situation the 1.6 weaned lambs per ewe is achieveable and if you can earn €100 per lamb that should suggest with the costs per ewe in the €60 - €80 bracket a potential of €80 - €100 per ewe....but indications here suggest that its more like €20 - €40 ??

rancher

ferryman35 wrote: »

Could that be because what you produce is actually a specialised / niche product and its potential / value isn't recognisable in a conventional high volume system which treats everything it processes as a standard product.

Obviously then targets and figures designed for the standard production system don't apply.....your production system is limited by what is physically possible first of all & then what is actually permitted? And because of how your lambs graze they will really be a totally different product to one that gets a mouthful of grass everytime it lowers its head??

I'm puzzled by the figures discussed here....if in a 'standard' situation the 1.6 weaned lambs per ewe is achieveable and if you can earn €100 per lamb that should suggest with the costs per ewe in the €60 - €80 bracket a potential of €80 - €100 per ewe....but indications here suggest that its more like €20 - €40 ??

Fixed costs and replacement costs probably aren't included in your costs per ewe

farmingmad10

ferryman35 wrote: »

Could that be because what you produce is actually a specialised / niche product and its potential / value isn't recognisable in a conventional high volume system which treats everything it processes as a standard product.

Obviously then targets and figures designed for the standard production system don't apply.....your production system is limited by what is physically possible first of all & then what is actually permitted? And because of how your lambs graze they will really be a totally different product to one that gets a mouthful of grass everytime it lowers its head??

I'm puzzled by the figures discussed here....if in a 'standard' situation the 1.6 weaned lambs per ewe is achieveable and if you can earn €100 per lamb that should suggest with the costs per ewe in the €60 - €80 bracket a potential of €80 - €100 per ewe....but indications here suggest that its more like €20 - €40 ??

I was looking at the teagasc e profit monitor for 2012. For the top 1/3 of sheep farmers who are the most efficient they said the variable cost was €57/ewe the fixed costs were €60/ewe. The weaning rate was 1.43 lambs/ewe the gross output was €139/ewe. The lamb price was €98. The stocking rate was 10 ewes/ha. I suppose the positive things you can take out of them figures are that you could make more profit. If you were stocked at 12/ewes/ha if you weaned more lambs/ewe if you selected rams performance recorded with lambs that would grow faster. These would all pump up gross margin/ha & pump up net profit/ha. Labour was included in the fixed costs btw. Not as bad as it looked at the start. Maybe their could be good money in them.

Conmaicne Mara

ferryman35 wrote: »

Could that be because what you produce is actually a specialised / niche product and its potential / value isn't recognisable in a conventional high volume system which treats everything it processes as a standard product.

Obviously then targets and figures designed for the standard production system don't apply.....your production system is limited by what is physically possible first of all & then what is actually permitted? And because of how your lambs graze they will really be a totally different product to one that gets a mouthful of grass everytime it lowers its head??

I'm puzzled by the figures discussed here....if in a 'standard' situation the 1.6 weaned lambs per ewe is achieveable and if you can earn €100 per lamb that should suggest with the costs per ewe in the €60 - €80 bracket a potential of €80 - €100 per ewe....but indications here suggest that its more like €20 - €40 ??

Here's a statistic I will let you ponder in your own time, my heaviest store lamb in 2013 was 48.18kg on sale day.

ferryman35

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Here's a statistic I will let you ponder in your own time, my heaviest store lamb in 2013 was 48.18kg on sale day.

Don't think I'm running down your product at all - the opposite is what I intended - I would be presuming that 'hill' ground isn't going to be acres upon acres of ryegrass and that hill sheep would therefore be grazing on a much more varied diet thus creating a much more valuable product, if you have a market that can recognise & reward that.

No I didn't have fixed / replacement costs included, but I am trying to get a handle on what the other figures include as well. When labour is included in the fixed costs on figures like Teagasc's - is that the total labour cost ( the farmers & any hired in help) ?

What's very clear is that there is a huge gap between best & worst performers and it's interesting to see how achievable the notional figures on paper are in reality, and what you have to do to get them if they can be got.

farmingmad10

ferryman35 wrote: »

Don't think I'm running down your product at all - the opposite is what I intended - I would be presuming that 'hill' ground isn't going to be acres upon acres of ryegrass and that hill sheep would therefore be grazing on a much more varied diet thus creating a much more valuable product, if you have a market that can recognise & reward that.

No I didn't have fixed / replacement costs included, but I am trying to get a handle on what the other figures include as well. When labour is included in the fixed costs on figures like Teagasc's - is that the total labour cost ( the farmers & any hired in help) ?

What's very clear is that there is a huge gap between best & worst performers and it's interesting to see how achievable the notional figures on paper are in reality, and what you have to do to get them if they can be got.

Tbh they only had hired labour. Bit strange their was no own labour on it. The farmer has to include a wage for his own work as part of the business.

Conmaicne Mara

ferryman35 wrote: »

Don't think I'm running down your product at all - the opposite is what I intended - I would be presuming that 'hill' ground isn't going to be acres upon acres of ryegrass and that hill sheep would therefore be grazing on a much more varied diet thus creating a much more valuable product, if you have a market that can recognise & reward that.

There was a market, unfortunately they were called Portugal, Spain, and Italy. Portugal I believe being the largest market and if you look for Frank Hynes Teagasc figures on it there has been a colossal drop in light lamb exports to that country. Keepak got stung by exporting to them and not getting paid.

Not sure on how Spain is doing, I think there is a slight improvement in Italy.

There are initiatives in both Connemara and Mayo particularly with the Connemara Hill Lamb brand and I think the Mayo blackface producers group have something going also.

Bord Bia until very recently considered all lamb as just "lamb", with no concept of regionality or diversity of taste or fodder types. They have since been set right on that. (If someone would set them right on that stupid rain ad that would be good also).



As was pointed out to me by PM last night and what I knew already is I don't consider my own flock to be producing "light lamb" as in under 16kg carcass (others certainly are and need markets opened up for their product). I currently produce stores due to small numbers and drafting issues with that. An increase in my numbers and I'd be happy to have a right go at driving them on and sending directly to the factory. But, as I said in another thread I'll get in trouble if I increase off my own bat due to overall hill farming restrictions.

Mad4simmental

rancher wrote: »

I'd love to have that post to quote back at you in 5 years time, you're in your sheltered sector at the moment making little of our enterprise.....you're in for a huge wake up call.
I'd average around €40/ewe but there's loads of scope to improve that, I don't feed silage so doing that could improve margin by €5/ewe+ (cause I don't like hard work) I buy my meal in bags delivered ( cause I don't like hard work)so that's another €5/ewe possible. and I don't bother reseeding,
Apart from march/april they take two days/week so there's a life style to them and no muck and ****e and they don't pollute the neighbours with a smell.
Have to go out now to start my days work, but will be finished by 11....am

And your dead right, you have a life and IMO that's worth $10 a ewe. No matter what sector of farming your in I think there is to many "busey fools" making hard work for themselves and are no better of than the man that takes a small hit on things like just buying a few bags of meal insted and is home drinking tea or beer on a Saturday evening insted of running around.

Mad4simmental

Also what people forget is sum sheep farmers get it really really bad with dogs. You don't really get that with cattle. A very bad dog plague for a week or two can completely fu#k up a sheep farmer for that year with sheep in shock, killed, aborting ect. That would brake my hart if I had sheep.

farmingmad10

Those figures I mentioned include the farmers own labour wage & also hired labour

rancher

Mad4simmental wrote: »

And your dead right, you have a life and IMO that's worth $10 a ewe. No matter what sector of farming your in I think there is to many "busey fools" making hard work for themselves and are no better of than the man that takes a small hit on things like just buying a few bags of meal insted and is home drinking tea or beer on a Saturday evening insted of running around.

To make any money in drystock farming is tough, but then to pay 50% income tax on anything you might gain by cutting costs.....just not worth it.