Nationalism and patriotism, same thing?

MakeMyFriend

Before I go on.

Nationalism, to discriminate against a group of people or individual based simply on their nationality.

Patriotism, to take pride in your own nationality.

Both of the words have several different meanings (especially nationalism), but from I've gathered that's the agreed definitions for most people, and to be honest they make sense. My point is that they're both the same thing, or same mindset rather. But the words have different receptions, patriotism is often seen as a character trait, or a virtue, whereas nationalism is seen as a opinionated viewpoint, sometimes equated with racism. I'll elaborate once I get some posts, but the shortest and most eloquent way I can put it is this:

Patriotism is nationalism in a good mood. Anyway, I'm sure some of you value patriotism, so I'd be interested in how you interpret that.

shanered

nationalism
ˈnaʃ(ə)n(ə)lɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
noun: nationalism
1.
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
"an early consciousness of nationalism and pride"
synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism, nationality; xenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism, flag-waving, isolationism; ethnocentrism, ethnocentricity
"the resurgence of nationalism in Europe and in other parts of the world"
an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
plural noun: nationalisms
"playing with right-wing nationalism"
advocacy of political independence for a particular country.
"Scottish nationalism"

patriotism
ˈpeɪtrɪətɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
noun: patriotism
1.
the quality of being patriotic; vigorous support for one's country.
"a highly decorated officer of unquestionable integrity and patriotism"
synonyms: nationalism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism; More
antonyms: treachery


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In many ways they are quite the same thing, in my opinion, nationalisim may have become a "dirty" word for Irish people due to the Northern Ireland conflict.

It is often interesting to how people perceive words due to connections that they have drawn in their own enviorment rather than the "classical" meaning of a word.
You will find that many words have become popular or dis-popular through association.

HobbyMan

MakeMyFriend, your definition of nationalism is the definition of racism.

I concur with shanered regarding the definitions and the terms can be used interchangeably.

redbaron_99

nationalism and patriotism are primitive concepts. Not much better than religion

redbaron_99

redbaron_99 wrote: »

nationalism and patriotism are primitive concepts. Not much better than religion

The validity of that equivalence depends on just what is meant by nationalism. The word has two distinct definitions as far as I understand it:

a) the philosophy underpinning the concept of the "nation," and
b) a belief that your nation is somehow superior to other nations (i.e. patriotism)

While the comparison between b) and religion is perhaps merited, claiming that a) is a primitive concept is an unfounded allegation. The concept of the nation is arguably of great importance.

redbaron_99

gvn wrote: »

The validity of that equivalence depends on just what is meant by nationalism. The word has two distinct definitions as far as I understand it:

a) the philosophy underpinning the concept of the "nation," and
b) a belief that your nation is somehow superior to other nations (i.e. patriotism)

While the comparison between b) and religion is perhaps merited, claiming that a) is a primitive concept is an unfounded allegation. The concept of the nation is arguably of great importance.

I tend to disagree. Humans like war. Borders and religious beliefs give them reason to wage war. Ultimately mankind will move on from nationalism and religion. It will be left behind as our species matures in the centuries to come. Therefore it is my view that both are relatively primitive ideas. Although, primitive is probably too strong a word to use. On reflection I should have said, "outdated".

I'm not saying that there are no positives in religion or nationalism; I actually think they were necessary at certain points of our evolution. My point is that they do more harm than good these days.

aidoh

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Humans like war.

I absolutely disagree with this, redbaron.
War is a very ugly, extremely complex issue, stemming from lots of different factors but I have never come accross a situation where a war has been started because the people or nations involved just thought "ah we haven't had a good war in a while. Lets do one this year, I love war".

I think there are some subtle and important differences between nationalism and patriotism too.

I see no harm in a person enjoying the country or area they live in. I for example am well aware of the fact that I just so happened to have been born here, but I still feel a kind of wishy-washy connection to Ireland - I can trace my family on both sides back to early Medieval Ireland and find that quite comforting for some reason. I think Ireland has a beautiful landscape and for the most part, the people are some of the warmest I've met anywhere in the world.
I would obviously never be prepared to kill or die for Ireland or give it primacy over any other country. I don't think people who happened to have been born in other countries are in any way less important than my fellow countrymen and women.
I always thought this view fit in with the idea of patriotism - to feel a deep connection to and love for the area in which one is born. Certainly doesn't require any conjurations of war-speech or nationalist ferver as has been suggested in this thread.
It's possible to maturely separate the idea of any nationalism from simply loving the land and folks around you.

Gerdev

aidoh wrote: »

I absolutely disagree with this, redbaron.
War is a very ugly, extremely complex issue, stemming from lots of different factors but I have never come accross a situation where a war has been started because the people or nations involved just thought "ah we haven't had a good war in a while. Lets do one this year, I love war".

No but it is in our nature as human beings to fight one another. Even when we were cavemen we used to fight for dominance. It is the most primitive of instincts, one that we still poses. Even though our excuses for killing eachother in this day and age may be different, our animal instincts remain the same.
Also I know the whole "I Love War" thing was a joke, but in fact some governments would welcome the idea of war as it is a sure fire way of increasing employment and reducing population.

Bloe Joggs

For me, they are 2 sides of the same coin. Patriotism is irrational, nationalism is just applied patriotism and a useful tool for politicians.

conorh91

Some inquiry should be made into the meaning of the word "country" in light of the definition of patriotism, above.

Patriotism does not necessarily require an ethnic or a geological component. Presumably it is possible to be patriotic towards the "country" that is multi ethnic, as well as geologically diverse and expansive, such as Brazil, which shares many of those features with neighboring jurisdictions.

Patriotism may therefore be something which is more realistically directed at society, organized under a democratic government through which active citizens partake in the ordering of that society, or 'State', if we can use that as a synonym for "country" in this context.

Patriotism, from this perspective, may be an endorsement and affiliation with one's own State insofar as one retains a personal active participation in that State and pride in how the People choose to order their State.

Using this interpretation, patriotism loses its more offensive and vaguely racist components, in my opinion.