is he being too ambitious?

grazeaway

question for all ye milking lads

was over with a friend of mine yesterday, was a bit of a celebration as he was milking cows for the 1st time in about 15 years. The 1st 2 of the new milking cows calved on friday and the machine was used for the 1st time properly yesterday.

anyway bit of background. farm is about 60ac, it was in a mix of dry stock and tillage since the mid 90's. they used to run about 40 milking cows and about 8- 10 replacements plus some yearlings on it back in the day.

the old parlour was built in the 60's so he has put up a new parlour next to the existing shed (cubicles with 48 spaces) and put in another cubicle house next door brining it up to about 70. There will be about 30 cows milking this year with another 20 next year and up to 65-70 the year after (plus replacements). All grazing and silage will be done at home with minimum feeding bought in (ration).

On a farm of 60ac (good and an all as it is) this does seem a very high stocking rate. he is not going down the high input/high output route so will be relying on having plenty of grass.

realistically what would a 60ac farm be able to handle bearing in mind the way things have gone weather wise over the last few years i can't see how he will be able to grow enough grass to graze and make silage for the stock without going mental on fertiliser. what would be the impact on nitrates?

what would be a average stocking rate for a 60ac farm to cover milkers, calves and replacements with silage for 5 months (4 months plus buffer). we are not that far from moorepark so that would be the nearest trial place.

blue5000

What is Curtin's farm stocked at?
He could buy in brewers off peak and ensile it for droughts etc, maize would be another option. Jerseys can be stocked tighter,

just my 2 cents

richie123

hell be very tight in a normal year ina bad year poor growth low milk prices etc ..forget about it!

milkprofit

60 cows AND 10 replacements or 70 cows with replacements off farm-- would be tight with nothing bought in
he would have enough with 60 cows until he is up to speed with managment

mf240

Funny enough I have a friend running 70 cows on just over 60 acres. He is a very good farmer and measures grass and has the whole farm reseeded and in great heart. But he is only able to make a handful of bales of the milking platform every year. Silage is brought in from rented land and replacements are grazed on rented land aswell.

mf240

Imo 50 well fed cows will milk as much as 60 hungry ones.

Viewtodiefor

grazeaway wrote: »

question for all ye milking lads

was over with a friend of mine yesterday, was a bit of a celebration as he was milking cows for the 1st time in about 15 years. The 1st 2 of the new milking cows calved on friday and the machine was used for the 1st time properly yesterday.

anyway bit of background. farm is about 60ac, it was in a mix of dry stock and tillage since the mid 90's. they used to run about 40 milking cows and about 8- 10 replacements plus some yearlings on it back in the day.

the old parlour was built in the 60's so he has put up a new parlour next to the existing shed (cubicles with 48 spaces) and put in another cubicle house next door brining it up to about 70. There will be about 30 cows milking this year with another 20 next year and up to 65-70 the year after (plus replacements). All grazing and silage will be done at home with minimum feeding bought in (ration).

On a farm of 60ac (good and an all as it is) this does seem a very high stocking rate. he is not going down the high input/high output route so will be relying on having plenty of grass.

realistically what would a 60ac farm be able to handle bearing in mind the way things have gone weather wise over the last few years i can't see how he will be able to grow enough grass to graze and make silage for the stock without going mental on fertiliser. what would be the impact on nitrates?

what would be a average stocking rate for a 60ac farm to cover milkers, calves and replacements with silage for 5 months (4 months plus buffer). we are not that far from moorepark so that would be the nearest trial place.

On just 60 acres and nothing else including replacements he would be very tight. If he fed a up to a ton of meal he might manage. Unlikely he'd still have 5 mts silage saved. As others have said might be better at 50 cows get it all reseeded and running well and see where he goes from there. Oh and don't borrow much! As in a bad year his costs will be too high.

freedominacup

If ye are in that area why would he need 5 months silage? He should be at grass 300 days in a normal year.

delaval

60 ac = 24.2 ha *3.5lu/ha = 84 lu's

60cows +12 maiden + 12 heifer calves= 72 lu's (edit)

So max NP&k, reseeding plan, 600 kgs ration, compact spring calving, grass measuring and a zero tolerance for stragglers.

If you think he's disciplined enough to do that, your question is answered

Option 2 is 84 milking cows no young stock all replacements purchased calved

freedominacup

delaval wrote: »

60 ac = 24.2 ha *3.5lu/ha = 84 lu's

60cows +12 maiden + 12 heifer calves= 84 lu

So max NP&k, reseeding plan, 600 kgs ration, compact spring calving, grass measuring and a zero tolerance for stragglers.

If you think he's disciplined enough to do that, your question is answered

Option 2 is 84 milking cows no young stock all replacements purchased calved

I thought a maiden heifer and a calf was the equivalent of one lu.

Brown Podzol

blue5000 wrote: »

What is Curtin's farm stocked at?
He could buy in brewers off peak and ensile it for droughts etc, maize would be another option. Jerseys can be stocked tighter,

just my 2 cents

2.8 cows/ha. Still need to buy in silage.

delaval

freedominacup wrote: »

I thought a maiden heifer and a calf was the equivalent of one lu.

Good spot that gives him 72 lu's on 24,2 ha = 2.9 Lu/ha, happy days

freedominacup

delaval wrote: »

Good spot that gives him 72 lu's on 24,2 ha = 2.9 Lu/ha, happy days

They're a small lu in May by by fcuk they're a big one by November;).

Timmaay

delaval wrote: »

Option 2 is 84 milking cows no young stock all replacements purchased calved

Why would you do this over contract rearing the heifers, and keeping a closed herd?

delaval

Timmaay wrote: »

Why would you do this over contract rearing the heifers, and keeping a closed herd?

Outlining options

grazeaway

freedominacup wrote: »

If ye are in that area why would he need 5 months silage? He should be at grass 300 days in a normal year.

usually we need about 4 months round here, full time from mid nov to mid feb then a few weeks either side, but its always worth having some for emergencies. as the last few years have told us.

Markcheese

Would there not be a huge difference between the feed requirements of 70 big Holstein or British Friesan and 70 new Zealand Friesan or jerseys ?
Should be able to keep them out on grass longer too if they're lighter cows and his paths and roadways are good...

bob charles

Timmaay wrote: »

Why would you do this over contract rearing the heifers, and keeping a closed herd?

As it is probably cheaper if running average enough herd of cows, how important is a closed herd nowadays with all the vaccinating/testing being done. Most of the very large herds I know of are buying the replacement cows JIT

jfh

bob charles wrote: »

As it is probably cheaper if running average enough herd of cows, how important is a closed herd nowadays with all the vaccinating/testing being done. Most of the very large herds I know of are buying the replacement cows JIT

Never thought I'd see JIT model in a farming context, but makes sense.
Probably more cost effective

Timmaay

bob charles wrote: »

As it is probably cheaper if running average enough herd of cows, how important is a closed herd nowadays with all the vaccinating/testing being done. Most of the very large herds I know of are buying the replacement cows JIT

I guess I've abit of a fear of buying in, having got stung in the past, buying other farmers 2nds usually. The disease part doesn't hugely bother me, as you say vaccinations etc cover that, but survivability isn't a thing you can put a price on in my view. Contract rearing shouldn't be that big a deal at all, and when you combine it with say sexed semen and breeding from your best cows, the extra cost is well worth it over buying in. But point taken that it still has its uses, in times when a herd needs to expand very rapidly to generate milk/income and meet repayments etc.

mf240

bob charles wrote: »

As it is probably cheaper if running average enough herd of cows, how important is a closed herd nowadays with all the vaccinating/testing being done. Most of the very large herds I know of are buying the replacement cows JIT

If you were prepared to milk all year round this would be a great system. Cows not incalf could be milked for the winter then sold in spring for finishing and replaced with freshly calved cows.

delaval

mf240 wrote: »

If you were prepared to milk all year round this would be a great system. Cows not incalf could be milked for the winter then sold in spring for finishing and replaced with freshly calved cows.

No, he won't have enough silage. All empty cows and other culls sold at drying off this cutting down the demand for silage, buy calved cows early Feb and straight to grass

Brown Podzol

grazeaway wrote: »

question for all ye milking lads

was over with a friend of mine yesterday, was a bit of a celebration as he was milking cows for the 1st time in about 15 years. The 1st 2 of the new milking cows calved on friday and the machine was used for the 1st time properly yesterday.

anyway bit of background. farm is about 60ac, it was in a mix of dry stock and tillage since the mid 90's. they used to run about 40 milking cows and about 8- 10 replacements plus some yearlings on it back in the day.

the old parlour was built in the 60's so he has put up a new parlour next to the existing shed (cubicles with 48 spaces) and put in another cubicle house next door brining it up to about 70. There will be about 30 cows milking this year with another 20 next year and up to 65-70 the year after (plus replacements). All grazing and silage will be done at home with minimum feeding bought in (ration).

On a farm of 60ac (good and an all as it is) this does seem a very high stocking rate. he is not going down the high input/high output route so will be relying on having plenty of grass.

realistically what would a 60ac farm be able to handle bearing in mind the way things have gone weather wise over the last few years i can't see how he will be able to grow enough grass to graze and make silage for the stock without going mental on fertiliser. what would be the impact on nitrates?

what would be a average stocking rate for a 60ac farm to cover milkers, calves and replacements with silage for 5 months (4 months plus buffer). we are not that far from moorepark so that would be the nearest trial place.

I copied the following from a report following the Irish Grassland Tour to West Cork in 2012. Looks like a template your friend could follow.


Following his marriage to Shirley in 1993, Robert Shannon, originally from Ballydehob, moved to Shirley’s home farm in Ballinascarthy, amalgamating their milk quotas to set up one dairy enterprise, where today they successfully farm with their children, Dyane, Claire, Stephen and Sarah. The farm initially had a quota of around 227,000l (30% supplied during the Winter months for the Carbery Winter Milk Scheme) supplying Lisavaird Co-op from 35 cows. This has increased to 590,000l from 80 cows on a grazing platform of 26ha within the last five years. The milking herd primarily consists of pedigree Holstein Friesian cows, with a small number of pedigree Jerseys and Jersey crossbreds. Apart from milk sales, Robert and Shirley also produce a number of high EBI genomically tested breeding stock, along with pedigree Aberdeen Angus breeding bulls. Young stock are contract reared four miles away from the farm.
Robert’s dairy expansion strategy will interest a lot of farmers. Constrained by access to extra land the Shannon’s increased their stocking rate on the existing grazing platform (currently 3.8LU/ha all year round). Whole crop silage is bought in as the main Winter feed. Robert has been measuring grass for a number of years and last year he utilized 13.5t DM/ha (the national average is < 9 t DM/ha). To ensure constant quality grass and milk supplies, Robert walks the farm weekly, matching supply with Spring, Summer and Autumn targets. Arising deficits are overcome via supplementary feed to his high performing cows.
The herd is split calving, with approximately 40% calving in Autumn and the remainder in Spring. Robert feels that the split calving is very advantageous in terms of grassland management. “The Winter system is driving the Spring system. Dry cows from the Winter milk herd clean up paddocks and deliver the best of grass to the milkers”. Robert noted a benefit of +0.15% in protein when grass quality is ideal.
Excellent animal performance was one of the striking features on the Shannon farm, thanks principally to a focused breeding programme. Robert has focused on breeding since he started farming and the herd EBI is currently at €130 (ranked in top 10% nationally) with an almost even split of €58 from milk and €61 from fertility. Cows average 7500l/year at 4.0% butterfat and ≥3.6% protein. To achieve this level of performance, Robert feeds one tonne of concentrate/cow. Overall feeding costs in 2011 amounted to 4.12c/l.
Robert uses only high EBI pedigree Holstein Friesian or pedigree Jersey bulls. When selecting bulls he looks for positives for protein percentage and milk volume which in turn leads to a positive for kg milk solids. The bull must be a minus for calving interval and be less than 0.4 for SCC with a good temperament score. Easy calving bulls are essential and Robert looks for a calving difficulty percentage of <4% for cows and <2% for heifers.
Some of the key issues that the Shannons experienced during expansion were:
• Growing the herd from own stock initially put a strain on cash flow, as
replacement sales were a big part of the business;
• Complying with the Nitrates Directive was one of the most challenging
aspects of expansion. The solution to this for Robert was contract rearing. Land that was being used to rear heifers could now be stocked with cows and used to generate a greater return;
• Existing farm roadways had to be resurfaced to accommodate increased traffic with the larger herd, and;
• Water supply was a problem because of small troughs and piping, and cows were waiting a long time at the troughs. This was addressed by making more water available on the way to the milking parlour and increasing water trough size to give more capacity in the field along with installing higher flow ballcocks.
Robert Shannon, Ballinascarthy (host farmer) is pictured speaking during the visit of the Irish Grassland Association Dairy Summer Tour to his farm.
Conclusion
Many farmers considering expansion will struggle to get their hands on extra land to expand cow numbers. The Shannons successfully demonstrated that expansion is possible on a limited land base. Robert feels that 3.8 cows/ha (similar to 3 cows/ha if making Winter feed on farm) is near the maximum he would go. He is a great example of what it takes to make this system work – high EBI cows delivering excellent milk solids, focused grassland management to achieve the most from grazed grass and a strong focus on costs, with the whole system achieving strong profits. Robert’s profit measured 25c/l in 2011. This was 20% above the average of the top 10% of Winter milk producers. Attention to detail is
imperative.

just do it

Let's say he starts off producing the national average of 9T/ha utilisable grass. On 60ac this works out at 225T/annum. A 500kg cow eats 2% of her body weight in a day -> 10kg. This works out at 3.65T per annum. 225/3.65 gives a stocking rate of 61 cows.

Given he's location he's plenty upward potential on 9t/ha.

Greengrass1

just do it wrote: »

Let's say he starts off producing the national average of 9T/ha utilisable grass. On 60ac this works out at 225T/annum. A 500kg cow eats 2% of her body weight in a day -> 10kg. This works out at 3.65T per annum. 225/3.65 gives a stocking rate of 61 cows.

Given he's location he's plenty upward potential on 9t/ha.

A dry cow will eat 10-11 KGS and milking cow will eat 18-19 kgs. There diet will increase by 1kg a each week after calving

trixi2011

just do it wrote: »

Let's say he starts off producing the national average of 9T/ha utilisable grass. On 60ac this works out at 225T/annum. A 500kg cow eats 2% of her body weight in a day -> 10kg. This works out at 3.65T per annum. 225/3.65 gives a stocking rate of 61 cows.

Given he's location he's plenty upward potential on 9t/ha.

They will be fair hungry cows if they are only eating 10 kg of grass it would be more like 18-20 depending on the solids they are producing

just do it

I reckoned I might be out on the %bw alright, particularly at peak lactation. I thought it might be 3% but at 18-19kg that's more like 4%. Assuming intake is proportional to yield, on an annual basis it probably averages at a little over 3% bw meaning 60ac could only carry 40 cows .

Greengrass1

just do it wrote: »

I reckoned I might be out on the %bw alright, particularly at peak lactation. I thought it might be 3% but at 18-19kg that's more like 4%. Assuming intake is proportional to yield, on an annual basis it probably averages at a little over 3% bw meaning 60ac could only carry 40 cows .

Ye won't feed them all on grass alone. If will have to feed meal up till mid April at least till grass really gets going and then if he wants to graze for as long as possible in autumn he will need meal then too

Timmaay

just do it wrote: »

I reckoned I might be out on the %bw alright, particularly at peak lactation. I thought it might be 3% but at 18-19kg that's more like 4%. Assuming intake is proportional to yield, on an annual basis it probably averages at a little over 3% bw meaning 60ac could only carry 40 cows .

Your calculations were for 9T? Aim for 12T/ha and you can definitely bump that up, as greengrass said also meal can be fed on the shoulders.

trixi2011

I'd say the live weight of ho would be over 600 kgs Nz or British fries ions would be 500 to 550+ . Ho herd I worked with in college averaged over 700kgs mature weight but they wouldn't be the norm

Gillespy

Working back from t/dm/yr is a bit more complicated than that I think.

Deepsouthwest

Brown Podzol wrote: »

I copied the following from a report following the Irish Grassland Tour to West Cork in 2012. Looks like a template your friend could follow.


Following his marriage to Shirley in 1993, Robert Shannon, originally from Ballydehob, moved to Shirley’s home farm in Ballinascarthy, amalgamating their milk quotas to set up one dairy enterprise, where today they successfully farm with their children, Dyane, Claire, Stephen and Sarah. The farm initially had a quota of around 227,000l (30% supplied during the Winter months for the Carbery Winter Milk Scheme) supplying Lisavaird Co-op from 35 cows. This has increased to 590,000l from 80 cows on a grazing platform of 26ha within the last five years. The milking herd primarily consists of pedigree Holstein Friesian cows, with a small number of pedigree Jerseys and Jersey crossbreds. Apart from milk sales, Robert and Shirley also produce a number of high EBI genomically tested breeding stock, along with pedigree Aberdeen Angus breeding bulls. Young stock are contract reared four miles away from the farm.
Robert’s dairy expansion strategy will interest a lot of farmers. Constrained by access to extra land the Shannon’s increased their stocking rate on the existing grazing platform (currently 3.8LU/ha all year round). Whole crop silage is bought in as the main Winter feed. Robert has been measuring grass for a number of years and last year he utilized 13.5t DM/ha (the national average is < 9 t DM/ha). To ensure constant quality grass and milk supplies, Robert walks the farm weekly, matching supply with Spring, Summer and Autumn targets. Arising deficits are overcome via supplementary feed to his high performing cows.
The herd is split calving, with approximately 40% calving in Autumn and the remainder in Spring. Robert feels that the split calving is very advantageous in terms of grassland management. “The Winter system is driving the Spring system. Dry cows from the Winter milk herd clean up paddocks and deliver the best of grass to the milkers”. Robert noted a benefit of +0.15% in protein when grass quality is ideal.
Excellent animal performance was one of the striking features on the Shannon farm, thanks principally to a focused breeding programme. Robert has focused on breeding since he started farming and the herd EBI is currently at €130 (ranked in top 10% nationally) with an almost even split of €58 from milk and €61 from fertility. Cows average 7500l/year at 4.0% butterfat and ≥3.6% protein. To achieve this level of performance, Robert feeds one tonne of concentrate/cow. Overall feeding costs in 2011 amounted to 4.12c/l.
Robert uses only high EBI pedigree Holstein Friesian or pedigree Jersey bulls. When selecting bulls he looks for positives for protein percentage and milk volume which in turn leads to a positive for kg milk solids. The bull must be a minus for calving interval and be less than 0.4 for SCC with a good temperament score. Easy calving bulls are essential and Robert looks for a calving difficulty percentage of <4% for cows and <2% for heifers.
Some of the key issues that the Shannons experienced during expansion were:
• Growing the herd from own stock initially put a strain on cash flow, as
replacement sales were a big part of the business;
• Complying with the Nitrates Directive was one of the most challenging
aspects of expansion. The solution to this for Robert was contract rearing. Land that was being used to rear heifers could now be stocked with cows and used to generate a greater return;
• Existing farm roadways had to be resurfaced to accommodate increased traffic with the larger herd, and;
• Water supply was a problem because of small troughs and piping, and cows were waiting a long time at the troughs. This was addressed by making more water available on the way to the milking parlour and increasing water trough size to give more capacity in the field along with installing higher flow ballcocks.
Robert Shannon, Ballinascarthy (host farmer) is pictured speaking during the visit of the Irish Grassland Association Dairy Summer Tour to his farm.
Conclusion
Many farmers considering expansion will struggle to get their hands on extra land to expand cow numbers. The Shannons successfully demonstrated that expansion is possible on a limited land base. Robert feels that 3.8 cows/ha (similar to 3 cows/ha if making Winter feed on farm) is near the maximum he would go. He is a great example of what it takes to make this system work – high EBI cows delivering excellent milk solids, focused grassland management to achieve the most from grazed grass and a strong focus on costs, with the whole system achieving strong profits. Robert’s profit measured 25c/l in 2011. This was 20% above the average of the top 10% of Winter milk producers. Attention to detail is
imperative.

I was also at this walk, one of the most informative and eye opening walks I've ever been at. But the standard this guy is farming at is incredible, I argued with my advisor if this was the template Teagasc should be using post 2015 on farms restricted by land. He agreed, but said it would be near impossible to farm as well as this guy. I think even if we only farmed 3/4 as good as him, the potential would be huge.

Brown Podzol

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

I was also at this walk, one of the most informative and eye opening walks I've ever been at. But the standard this guy is farming at is incredible, I argued with my advisor if this was the template Teagasc should be using post 2015 on farms restricted by land. He agreed, but said it would be near impossible to farm as well as this guy. I think even if we only farmed 3/4 as good as him, the potential would be huge.

Excellent land and a short winter in that part of the country. Allied to the perfect cow for the system and an excellent grassland farmer and stockman delivered the results. Allowing for these I think the formula in repeatable for most of the country. There is a synergy between the dairy farmer and the tillage farmer to deliver high quality feed and use slurry to alleviate a nitrates problem . Can they can work together is the problem.

just do it

So at 10kg a day annual demand is 3.65T. Allowing for demand of 10-11kg when dry and 17-18kg when at peak lactation for ease of calculation we'll take an average demand figure of 15kg/day which equates to roughly 5.5T DM/annum.

So she gets feed but this is based on a light cow i.e. xbreed which weight around 450-500kg. You dairy guys can correct me on this but with this cow type you're looking to only feeding ~500kg meal/annum. Being generous and again for ease of calculation we'll say that equates to 0.5T DM reducting the cow's utilisable grass demand to 5T DM/annum.

I'm sticking to the national average of 9T DM as this guy is in the process of converting from dry stock and tillage. Sure his potential is a lot higher but if he hits the national average in year 1 he ought to be happy with that. So with 225T DM of grass available and a requirement of 5T/cow he could only carry 45 cows?

What's wrong with my calculations?

(Stick with the assumptions i.e. 500kg cows, utilisable grass yield of 9T DM/HA, 500kg meal)