Training - time or intensity?

ROK ON

I would like some insight.

What is the minimum amount of training that people HAVE gotten away with so as to simply get around A4.

Let's assume that a person has a reasonable base - although how much of a base one requires for 60-90minutes of racing is IMHO debatable.

Has anyone managed on 3 hours of training per week.
By training I mean intervals - short (HIIT), medium (5-7 mins * 4), long (2 * 20min).
By intervals I mean Z4 and Z5 in terms of HR. Focus on a mix of strength and cadence.
I am in a position where I can only commit to 3-4 hours per week no more. I see lots and lots of folks doing 8-14 hours for A4 and A3.

Just wondering what has worked for people.

Idleater

Minimum for me to show up and get around a club league /a4 race was between 0 and commuting.
If you want to be somewhat competitive, that's a different kettle of fish.

Beasty

It's quality rather than quantity that counts!

The last couple of weeks I've done maybe 5.5 hours per week, and it will be around 6.5 hours this week, with a low volume week due next week. Most of that time has been on the Wattbike, and I would argue that a well structured turbo session attracts a significant premium to road work - there's no coasting and you can target specific routines without having to consider external conditions. I also find recovery from a WB session is a lot easier than from a road session, allowing a bit more intensity (and more frequent sessions). My road sessions have been mainly about recovery

I'm sure people can get away with even less (particularly younger riders), and a lot of my training is specific to the events I'm targetting (track/TT). When the racing season arrives I will use races as part of the training

In terms of intensity, even on a WB session, which is typically 50 to 55mins or so long, the actual intervals will take up maybe between 5 minutes and 20 minutes in total with the rest warm-up, recovery and warm down. Some of the sessions I've been doing have been:

20 min TT
5 min level 4, 3 min level 1 x 4
30s Level 5/6, 30s Level 1 x 4, 20 mins recovery, then repeat

These can equally be done on the road, but given varying conditions tracking progress can be difficult (I know, for example, that my improvement in the 5 minute intervals has been 5% and 3% respectively over the past 2 weeks as there are no other external variables to worry about, although that does not take account of my state of recovery or general health issues).

Seweryn

ROK ON wrote: »

Has anyone managed on 3 hours of training per week.

I do not train, but this man set world records 4 or 5 times. His weekly training schedule was actually 3 hours, believe it or not. So, in one word - yes, there is at least one person that managed on 3 hours of training per week and spent that time so well that was able to beat all the world of cyclists, some of which were more athleticaly gifted than him.

i_surge

I think Obree was doing closer to 10 hrs from interviews and reading his book. He talks about a 2:20 "glycogen session" and a 20 or 30 min turbo all out TT weekly but also rode every day to recover, for transport, shopping etc. and included 4 hr group rides when road racing.

His focus was INTENSE training and INTENSE recovery. Not the same as 3 hrs training and a busy lifestyle.

Personally, I think you'll be trashed if you only do 3-4 hrs especially in base/build when the competition are doing at least twice that.

If I only had 3 hrs/week I'd do the following on the turbo aiming to feel ill at the end and recovery fully between each.

1 x 60 min just below lactic threshold with surges every 2 mins
5 x 5 min @ max sustainable for 5 min
6 - 8 x 2 min all out

Raam

I'm going for intensity this year. Not that I have any big goals but I do like to stay in good shape. The one thing I have organised for the summer is the Dolomites Marathon (140km, 4200m climbing). My training is mostly 2 - 3 hours cycling around Howth on a Sat/Sun to get in as much climbing as possible in a short period of time. It's close to my house, so it's convenient for me. I am also doing hour long sessions on the turbo, not just pedalling away but putting in hard, sustained efforts of varying length and intensity.

At some point I am going to have to do a few 100 mile spins but I don't intend to make a habit of it.

thebouldwhacker

In events I think your willingness and ability to absorb pain and continue with max output can be key to performance and results.
In my book quality will out perform quantity everytime, you are willing to suffer and are focused in what you want.
Your pretty experienced so I reckon you'll get around a few races and know more about your performance then.
Best of luck.

harringtonp

I've a self imposed training budget of about 6 hrs a week and usually across 4 sessions. And I could probably eliminate the 3 hour weekend group spin and still get quite a bit out of the 3 intense turbo sessions. The group spin keeps me sane however...

I have seen continual improvement with this over the last year or 2. However not enough to get me anywhere racing, but that has probably more to do with genetics and age than anything else.

Ryder

harringtonp wrote: »

I've a self imposed training budget of about 6 hrs a week and usually across 4 sessions. And I could probably eliminate the 3 hour weekend group spin and still get quite a bit out of the 3 intense turbo sessions. The group spin keeps me sane however...

I have seen continual improvement with this over the last year or 2. However not enough to get me anywhere racing, but that has probably more to do with genetics and age than anything else.

Exactly this. 3 turbo sessions a week for me and one club ride....which I think I could have dropped without any real performance loss. I raced A4 and easily got around...was too careful of not crashing to try to place. Anyway, I think 3 hours of turbo intervals a week would easily allow you to keep up with the group.

this year with less time, I do 2-3 roller sessions a week (10 min intervals X 3) and when I have time can knock out a 100km spin (slowly)

ROK ON

Thanks for all of the responses.

I should add that in addition to 3hours of training that I also do about three hours of commuting in any given week.

My goals are simple:
10-15 club league races depending on time availability.
5-6 Open races (A4) in Munster depending on time/family commitments.
Bike leg of four triathlons/duathlons again time dependent.

There is nothing that I am training for that is greater than 60k, hence choosing 3 hours on average.

My turbo sessions or road intervals are planned.

I set a goal that can be measured (time/cadence/cadence at specific levee of resistance/HR at cadence and resistance).

I also like the turbo so I think that helps. I hate training in the dark and cold. Actually I have been sick for two months - repeated chest infections.
So on that basis I haven't even managed three hours of regular training for any consistent period of time since late November.

I am probably 7 or 8 weeks behind where I want to be and that will impact when my season begins. I was hoping the Ned Flanagan or the Lacey Cup or Ras Luimni. However it will no be likely to be a club league race prior to an open race if the illness persists.

Good to see that not everyone is wracking up huge milage (like some of the mods around here). A bit of a comfort blanket if anything.

12 sprocket

i_surge wrote: »

I think Obree was doing closer to 10 hrs from interviews and reading his book. He talks about a 2:20 "glycogen session" and a 20 or 30 min turbo all out TT weekly but also rode every day to recover, for transport, shopping etc. and included 4 hr group rides when road racing.

His focus was INTENSE training and INTENSE recovery. Not the same as 3 hrs training and a busy lifestyle.

Personally, I think you'll be trashed if you only do 3-4 hrs especially in base/build when the competition are doing at least twice that.

If I only had 3 hrs/week I'd do the following on the turbo aiming to feel ill at the end and recovery fully between each.

1 x 60 min just below lactic threshold with surges every 2 mins
5 x 5 min @ max sustainable for 5 min
6 - 8 x 2 min all out

Having read Obrees book I would actually wonder as to whether his training methods contributed to some of the mental health problems he had. He completed some very intensive sessions and periods of racing without a huge training base in some instances.. In my opinion this could have lead to overtraining syndrome by times.
It is well known that one of the symptoms of overtraining is lowered mood, and sleep disruption which is also something which occurs with depression. And for someone like Obree who seemed to be prone to some mental health issues this certainly doesn't seem like something to be risked..
so keep a balance in the training and remember cycling is something to be enjoyed.

thebouldwhacker

12sproket I don't know your background but linking exercise to chronic mental health issues and sucide attempts is a fairly big reach.
Yes over training leads to mood swings, sleep disturbances etc but so does eating too much ice cream. I feel the effects of his personal history, self esteem, inter tormoil regarding his sexuality, failure to 'succeed' even when he did, to name a few, probably had more to do with his wellbeing than his training schedule.
The health benifits both physical and mental to excercise, esp a few hours a week that Rok is talking about, so far outweigh the negitives to the extent that it's not worth mentioning outside of academic examination.
Sorry if this comes across as a bit ott but there are enough myths surrounding mental health as it is, the world doesn't need more...
Sorry to go off thread Rok.

Stevieg2009

Just wondering if the sessions on the trainer have anything to do with the chest infections i.e indoor training and sweating can cause such issues or so I have been informed mayb I'm wrong and not linked at all

Arthurdaly

I think it would be race dependent, Stamullen, Des Hanlon, Newbridge, etc it would be very unlikely and you'd likely be exiting those races early.

Some of easier flatter races like Lucan GP, Coombes Connor, Dunsany etc it would certainly be possible get around as they will most likely be big bunches and sitting in for the race would not require huge effort.

If I only had 3/4 hours I would have concentrated on 80/90km endurance rides from Oct - Dec and then start cutting volume in favour of 1 hour turbo sessions 2/3 times a week concentrating on threshold and higher efforts.

ROK ON

I don't believe so.
I am 41 years of age and have been getting pretty debilitating chest infections at least once a year since my early 20's.
I don't smoke but grew up in a home with a chain smoker.

I have had tests done, and the last set the doctor stated that my lungs cannot handle the persistently damp weather of a typical Irish winter - he actually suggested emigration to a dry climate.

In fact the two winters if excessie cold, snow and ice were the only winters in last decade where I was healthy - I spent all of those winters in the turbo.

I use the turbo know due to (1) time budgeting, (2) preferrable to a session in the wet Kerry hills.

thebouldwhacker

A friend of mine has a child with cf so they go skiing every year, the dry air helps no end. If I were told by a doc to seek a better climate I'd now be el bouldwhackerio

Morrisseeee

Interestingly the first race (in your neck of the woods) Lacey Cup, have a separate race for A4's, but with 2 long climbs I'd say it will split. Will you give it a lash ? It'd be a good place to start I'd say, as even getting in with a bunch of lads/lassies and stay with them for the course would be beneficial.

Speaking of bunch-splitting, some to wary of due to hills, eg. Broadford/Aqua Blue Classic/Coachford/Ballymore/RAS an Clar/Charleville2Day.

Also note that if you've had a poor winter you are going to struggle in the first few races, so you definitely need constant training/sportives/races to stay at race pace. Last year (and I'm in a similar situation to yourself) I was doing 30+ hours per month.

Raam

Today I tried a bit of this.
http://britishcyclesport.com/2013/training/tabata-intervals/

named after the Japanese Professor Izumi Tabata. He trained speed skaters but, as the muscles involved in skating are very similar to cycling, used exercise bikes for their training, which consisted of just 8 repeats of 20 seconds ‘on’ (i.e. hard effort) followed by 10 seconds of recovery (i.e. low effort, spinning). It sounds simple…

But there is an issue: Tabata intervals have to be performed maximally, which means as near as you can get to maximal in reality. It hurts. At the end of a set of 8 Tabata intervals, if you have done them correctly, you will feel in pretty poor shape, your legs burning and your chest on fire; you may even feel sick…

They are just awful. I doubt that I was anywhere near maximum. I mean, I was going as I hard as I felt that I could but I reckon I just haven't remembered how to suffer enough and that they should be done at an even higher intensity than what I did. I've been too long away from intense efforts and I'm just getting back in to it.

I did 20 on, 10 off x 8. Repeated 3 times with a 5 min recovery in between.

ROK ON

Raam

Did you do that on turbo or the road.
I do similar workout on turbo - two different Sufferfest videos have workouts based on short HIIT max intervals.
One is
12*5sec
8*10sec
6*15 sec
10*5sec
8*10sec
4*45sec

There are three more sets of intervals but I have never actually goten that far.
It's horrible. By the end between bile,sweat and tears you can no longer read what the garmin head unit is saying.

Idea is high resistance and high cadence.
I just hope that it works, because there are easier ways to sit on a bike.

Raam

On the turbo. I was so ragged that if I tried it on the road I would be all over the place and wouldn't be able to pay proper attention to what is going on around me.

ROK ON

I think that's what I take from the turbo - the safety of dying in your own house as opposed to a country lane somewhere.

Last time I tried a session like this I spent 50%of time in Z4 & 5 of Friel HR zones (40/10).
Hit a max cadence of 159 which equated to a turbo speed of 80kmph.

If only that would translate to real world cycling I'd be better than Cav.That effort was 7 seconds btw.

blackvalley

ROK ON wrote: »

I don't believe so.
I am 41 years of age and have been getting pretty debilitating chest infections at least once a year since my early 20's.
I don't smoke but grew up in a home with a chain smoker.

I have had tests done, and the last set the doctor stated that my lungs cannot handle the persistently damp weather of a typical Irish winter - he actually suggested emigration to a dry climate.

In fact the two winters if excessie cold, snow and ice were the only winters in last decade where I was healthy - I spent all of those winters in the turbo.

I use the turbo know due to (1) time budgeting, (2) preferrable to a session in the wet Kerry hills.

Very interesting story that. For many years I cycled to work 25K early morning in hail rain and snow and ended up with a chest infection at least once a year.Was in my early forties at the time.
A change of job fifteen years ago means little or no early morning spins and guess what , no chest infection for last fifteen years. ( Touch wood )

thebouldwhacker

ROK ON wrote: »

Raam

Did you do that on turbo or the road.
I do similar workout on turbo - two different Sufferfest videos have workouts based on short HIIT max intervals.
One is
12*5sec
8*10sec
6*15 sec
10*5sec
8*10sec
4*45sec

There are three more sets of intervals but I have never actually goten that far.
It's horrible. By the end between bile,sweat and tears you can no longer read what the garmin head unit is saying.

Idea is high resistance and high cadence.
I just hope that it works, because there are easier ways to sit on a bike.

I did something similar this evening, tbh I'm looking forward to running tomorrow for cross training.... it has to be easier.

nilhg

I used to get multiple chest infections for donkeys years which led to two bouts of pneumonia, I had a history of asthma as a youngster which the medics decided I'd grown out of, about 8 years ago I was diagnosed with sarcoidosis and as part of the medical invewstigations had a pulminary function test around that time which showed that I still had the asthma at a subclinical level, I was put on a preventitive inhaler and the end result is almost no chest infections and much less head colds.

Not medical advice but if you have any history (even long, long ago) of asthma and getting chest infections, see your Doc and ask for some more detailed investigations, too many of us just take the antibiotics and then do nothing till the same happens again.

Sorry for going OT.

Hmmzis

Raam wrote: »

Today I tried a bit of this.
http://britishcyclesport.com/2013/training/tabata-intervals/



They are just awful. I doubt that I was anywhere near maximum. I mean, I was going as I hard as I felt that I could but I reckon I just haven't remembered how to suffer enough and that they should be done at an even higher intensity than what I did. I've been too long away from intense efforts and I'm just getting back in to it.

I did 20 on, 10 off x 8. Repeated 3 times with a 5 min recovery in between.

This looks similar to some exercises I've seen in some training plans for crits and short road races. They would also have sets of 5-7 repeats of 20-25sec all out sprints but with slightly higher recovery times, 30-40sec between efforts. The recovery between sets was the same though, around 5min. Did a good few of them last year as preparation for Corkagh park races and I think they worked quite well on me. Could get up to 5 sets in a training session without getting to taste my breakfast again. They also get more tolerable with time, the 'omfg, I'm dying' is still there and should remain but the urge to throw up goes away.

couerdelion

ROK ON wrote: »

I think that's what I take from the turbo - the safety of dying in your own house as opposed to a country lane somewhere.

I actually thought about that today when I was about to jump on the turbo and took the front door keys out just in case I had a heart attack and collapsed and my wife couldn't get in... nice thoughts to have pre-turbo:D

uphillonly

Raam wrote: »

Today I tried a bit of this.
http://britishcyclesport.com/2013/training/tabata-intervals/

They are just awful. I doubt that I was anywhere near maximum. I mean, I was going as I hard as I felt that I could but I reckon I just haven't remembered how to suffer enough and that they should be done at an even higher intensity than what I did. I've been too long away from intense efforts and I'm just getting back in to it.

I did 20 on, 10 off x 8. Repeated 3 times with a 5 min recovery in between.

Tabatas are brutal but very useful when you only have a short training window. Agree they feel awful to do but great endorphin release afterwards. I often do them on business trips before breakfast. Seems to be plenty of evidence they keep your fitness up if you can only train for a short time.

Lots of good advice in this thread. With a busy job & family I'm very pleased to see the evidence coming out on quality over quantity in recent years.

Personally I'm a big fan of 2 x 20m at 85% FTP (aka sweetspot intervals), 4 x5m V02 max & tabatas - all on different days. I feel long rides are good for stamina but these kinds of sessions produce the most power (FTP) improvement.

With the right length hills you can do repeats outside & get away from turbo tedium. It can be harder to produce as much power on a turbo due to overheating.

Re - chest infections/colds. I've become over-protective of my health immediately after heavy training sessions. Learnt the hard way with too many colds/chest infections following hard sessions where I didn't shower & get warm quickly. Could be bad science but I feel the immune system is weaker straight after the stress of a hard session.

uphillonly

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

12sproket I don't know your background but linking exercise to chronic mental health issues and sucide attempts is a fairly big reach.
Yes over training leads to mood swings, sleep disturbances etc but so does eating too much ice cream. I feel the effects of his personal history, self esteem, inter tormoil regarding his sexuality, failure to 'succeed' even when he did, to name a few, probably had more to do with his wellbeing than his training schedule.
The health benifits both physical and mental to excercise, esp a few hours a week that Rok is talking about, so far outweigh the negitives to the extent that it's not worth mentioning outside of academic examination.
Sorry if this comes across as a bit ott but there are enough myths surrounding mental health as it is, the world doesn't need more...
Sorry to go off thread Rok.

Brief stray off topic. There was a well written piece in the Guardian on this a few days ago. It looked at the incidence amongst pros so was focused on their extreme life & training rather than our level.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/100-tours-100-tales/2014/jan/23/cycling-relationship-depression-doping

pprendeville

Im doing short intense sessions mainly with subthreshold intervals using power on a turbo trainer (too cold to goo outside), 5-6 hours per week and about an average of 20 mins core work most days. By that i mean a structured 20min core session 3 days a week and other days just miscellaneous stuff like when i got to the jaxx i do a few pull up/chin ups on a bar iI put up in the doorway and when i come out i do push ups. Just trying to develop these weird habits to help me on my way. Im doing the training4cyclists winter training program and its great i find (advocated quality over quantity). I guess I'll know how good it is when I get back racing.

harringtonp

uphillonly wrote: »

With the right length hills you can do repeats outside & get away from turbo tedium. It can be harder to produce as much power on a turbo due to overheating.

Last week had a Tues turbo session in a gym and heat meant died on later intervals. Setup outside on Thursday in the rain and held target wattage for all 6 intervals. Turbo does allow you very precise zone targeting, see image.


Having said that down here on the atlantic seaboard, yesterday evening was the first dry,calm comparatively mild one in a long time and it was great to get the lights out and do the intervals on the road

Raam

Yesterday I went for 40 mins in what I suppose would be just below the sweet spot. I am trying to mimic doing a long climb at an effort which I could repeat a few more times. Is this scientific? Probably not. Does it get me on the turbo? Yes.

I tried to keep it over 250 of the turbo watts and in the end it was pretty much always over 260. With a 10 min warmup before and a 10 min cool down after, I was 219 average watts.

They are turbo watts, take with a pinch of salt.

petethedrummer

I've read a fair bit on HIIT/Tabata stuff and it's not just for sprinting. Do a bit of googling of the effect of anaerobic exercise on aerobic metabolism.

According to some, the idea that you can strictly isolate aerobic and anerobic exercise is wrong headed and I'm inclined to believe them. HIIT proponents claim that it is a more time efficient way to boost your aerobic capabilities. When you short hard intervals, the by-products of anaerobic metabolism stack up and are cycled through aerobic metabolism long after you stop the intervals and much faster than when you do "aerobic" exercise.

The things to be wary of......... Most (but not all) HIIT/Tabata protocols will require you to hugely increase the forces through your joints and muscles (i.e. they require you to sprint). This will increase the risk of certain types of injuries.

The upside is that reducing your volume of exercise may reduce wear and tear injuries and give you more actual time in your life.

A proper HIIT session can take a very long time to recover from. 4x30 seconds sprints in the last Goldsprints took me an entire week to recover from and I was in very good shape at the time. But I am a sprinter type and fast muscle twitch fibres take longer to rebuild, so if you are all slow twitch it probably won't take as long to recover.

Tabata/HIIT intervals won't eliminate the need to go out and do some long miles on the bike. I don't think you get any better at cycling by only doing 8 sprints once a week.

petethedrummer

When we perfect this training schedule can we call it INTENSO-TIME-8X and sell it?

Raam

My intention is not to only go with short, high intensity sprint efforts. I want my work outs to be varied.

detones

Raam wrote: »

Yesterday I went for 40 mins in what I suppose would be just below the sweet spot. I am trying to mimic doing a long climb at an effort which I could repeat a few more times. Is this scientific? Probably not. Does it get me on the turbo? Yes.

I tried to keep it over 250 of the turbo watts and in the end it was pretty much always over 260. With a 10 min warmup before and a 10 min cool down after, I was 219 average watts.

They are turbo watts, take with a pinch of salt.

A bit OT Raam but as you have the same turbo as me ( Tacx Flow) I was wondering do you go through the calibration sequence each time you use it. And how do you set up your wheel tension with the roller. I have read its 3.5 turns of the screw after the roller barely touches the wheel.

Back on point Turbo's for me are a great tool to get an intensive workout in a short time. I have literally been left lying on the floor in a heap after a 35min session on a turbo. It also much easier to control intervals and hard efforts in the controlled environment of the turbo v the open road. I just need to use it more.

harringtonp

petethedrummer wrote: »

The things to be wary of......... Most (but not all) HIIT/Tabata protocols will require you to hugely increase the forces through your joints and muscles (i.e. they require you to sprint). This will increase the risk of certain types of injuries.

Whatever about Tabata, for HIIT intervals from 2-5 mins you are generally not working at much more than 1/3 of your max (say 5 sec) wattage. So forces are still comparatively low and I'd say there is little added risk of injury over normal cycling.

Out of the saddle all out sprinting is a different story.

Raam

detones wrote: »

A bit OT Raam but as you have the same turbo as me ( Tacx Flow) I was wondering do you go through the calibration sequence each time you use it. And how do you set up your wheel tension with the roller. I have read its 3.5 turns of the screw after the roller barely touches the wheel.

No calibration after initially doing it, I just get on the thing and go. Same bike, same rider, so I don't bother. I really just want something to aim at and I'm not terribly fussed about its accuracy. If I haven't used it in ages then I will calibrate it. Not paid much attention to the roller lock. Once it grips and is not squashing the tyre then that is good enough for me.

petethedrummer

harringtonp wrote: »

Whatever about Tabata, for HIIT intervals from 2-5 mins you are generally not working at much more than 1/3 of your max (say 5 sec) wattage. So forces are still comparatively low and I'd say there is little added risk of injury over normal cycling.

To clarify I was referring HIIT training in the approx 30 seconds range.

petethedrummer

Raam wrote: »

My intention is not to only go with short, high intensity sprint efforts. I want my work outs to be varied.

Lol I only made that clarification just in case someone jumped in and said "are you dumb enough to think you could win the TDF with only 8 sprints?"