Camper wont start, electrical problem?

vinniem

Hi All,
My camper wont start its a 2007 2.4TDCI Transit. Two battery's under drivers seat, both were a bit down so charged them up. Got it to start then leave a few days and not a chance. Lights on dash falsh quickly, measured batts and both down again. Then in key acc pos, no lights but after a min or two lights just come on. Any ideas guys?

Malta1

As far as I know, the batteries under the seat have no relationship to the vehical starting
If the van will not start, have you checked battery under bonnet etc?

vinniem

Thanks Malta, but no battery's under bonnet in my Transit. Two batts under driver seat 80Ahr each and a 100Ahr leisure battery under passangers seat.

moodrater

If the batteries have been flat fior a few months they are likely scrap, disconnect them and give them a full charge for a couple of days, then check with a multimeter for a parasitic drain when putting them back in. Most likey you've left the fridge on or something.

Aidan_M_M

Generally on a modern Tranny , one of the batteries is for the leisure , one for the engine . Sounds like a dead one!

Smells like dead battery season is upon us!

moodrater

moodrater wrote: »

check with a multimeter for a parasitic drain

Sorry in advance for being a pedant here Moodrater :rolleyes: .
A parasitic drain is an active load that is unknown or impossible to switch off, or an elective permanent load eg. carbon monoxide alarm.
Self-discharge is when there's so many impurities in the battery electrolyte and hard sulphates fallen to the bottom of the cells that the battery develops soft-shorts and self-discharges at an accelerated rate.

I know these manifest as the same thing but they are different things with different solutions.

moodrater

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Sorry in advance for being a pedant here Moodrater :rolleyes: .
A parasitic drain is an active load that is unknown or impossible to switch off, or an elective permanent load eg. carbon monoxide alarm.
Self-discharge is when there's so many impurities in the battery electrolyte and hard sulphates fallen to the bottom of the cells that the battery develops soft-shorts and self-discharges at an accelerated rate.

I know these manifest as the same thing but they are different things with different solutions.

Heh, I know that he needs to check the current with everything 'off', with the freshly charged batteries installed could be parasitic drain of cheap chinese alarm, dodgy headunit, corroded fusebox etc. etc. or if your lucky as in the case of a bmw I saw last week - the previous owner left his bluetooth obd dongle plugged in the obd port No point in putting in a new battery if its going to go the same way bacause theres a drain you don't know about.

Ah I misread, sorry I thought you suggested checking for self-discharge before putting them back in. Might be a good idea too btw.

vinniem

Lads thanks for all ye're help, but after changing leisure batt as was completely dead and one of the batteries under drivers seat the problem still persists. But sometimes will start then engine cuts out after a few mins and doors unlock!! I'm suspecting an issue with the charging cct as two batts under drivers seat, one to start engine and others for electronics ecu etc. Any ideas chaps?

Any fault lights in the dash? Have you a scan tool? Two auto-batteries? Strange...
I'd be thinking fuel pump except it doesn't explain the doors unlocking.
All fuses good?

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Any fault lights in the dash? Have you a scan tool? Two auto-batteries? Strange...
I'd be thinking fuel pump except it doesn't explain the doors unlocking.
All fuses good?

Ah yeah sometimes lights come on sumtimes not, and sometimes flicker erratically. All batts above 12 v..but thinking batt for electronics drops off as not getting a charge...but cant be sure of cause

Failing split charge relay perhaps? Seems these are known to give bother. Have you a wiring diagram or factory service manual?

None of my theories are going to offer any hypothesis on the door locks but here goes.
Is the remaining unchanged battery known to be good? Is this the starter or electronics one? Is it a "sealed" battery? If yes do you fancy breaking in there and testing it with a hydrometer?

Split charge relay test:

• Run engine if you can and listen/feel it clicks when it ought.
• Check for bulging/meltage over-temp while operating, if you can open it have a look and see if it's free to move, no cracked insulation, moisture, burnt smell, dirt, corrosion etc.
• Need more data on this one I'd rather not guess. To bench test it you'd need to energise the coil and see if the internal switch throws as it should. Might require voltage sensing to operate. Any documentation on this?
• Possibly safe enough bypass it (link the battery positives....I'm not suggesting you do though without at least ringing a dealership, professional or in-the-know-type to make sure) and test by elimination. Are both batteries similar voltage, capacity and chemistry?

If it is the split charge relay and you feel it necessary to have one I can probably recommend a better one that's not OEM.

Battery testing: (after full mains charge on a trusty charger + 24hour float+ 24hour rest)

• Hydrometer reading, fast, accurate, requires opening the battery cells, safety wear.
• Discharge testing takes 10 + 24hours; 10 hour discharge with fixed load (to 50% DOD), 24 hours rest to recuperate then voltage test. If anticipated results are low then may require baby-sitting to prevent over-discharge.
• Self-discharge testing; disconnect, allow rest for a week in 10°C - 20°C then voltage/discharge/hydrometer/all of the above test to see how much capacity you've lost.
• Swap remaining questionable battery out for known good battery and see if symptoms mitigate.

Charging system test (with running engine),

• Stick a voltmeter on a battery/set of terminals/outlet with engine running, voltage test. Anything above 13v ( >14v expected) indicates a working alternator.
• Alternator load testing: turn on all the lights, blower, what-have-yous, voltage test. Anything above 13v (>13.4v expected) alternator is good. (don't do this for too long at idle your alternator may get hot and grumpy).
• Eyeball the serpentine belt and ensure it's spinning as fast as the alternator pulley (not slipping/correct tension) and verify with alternator loaded and/or bleeding the power steering (lock to lock).

Charging system (bench test).

• Remove alternator brushes check they are longer than 5mm (if they're removable)
• Eyeball slip rings for heavy wear, pitting, eccentricity.
• Check alternator pulley has no unnecessary play.
• Look at alternator terminals and wire connectors for heavy corrosion, clean where necessary.
• Diode/resistance test between alternator +ive and -ive (casing) to check bridge rectifier (diode pack): should be min resistance from -ive to +ive and max from +ive to -ive on resistance test. Equal values = dead diode. or continuity one way and open circuit the other on diode test.
• Check slip rings for continuity, they should have (open coil test), and slip ring to casing (short circuit test) should be none.
• Check slip rings for continuity to alternator +ives (not entirely sure about this, probably should have).
• Disconnect batteries (mulit-meter protection...don't send 12v down the continuity meter circuit, it'll damage a cheapy. PS...radio code...), check alternator connector +ives to +ive battery clamp have continuity probably requires a meter probe extending wire.
• Check all fuses for continuity.
  
  

Simple fuel pump test:

• Open fuel cap and stick an ear to the funnel while a friend turns to pre-crank ignition see if you can hear it prime, sometimes sticking a prybar directly to the fuel tank to a pressed ear-lobe works better. Try a few times turning key off ->pre-ignition.

After that I'd go for a scan tool or an auto-sparky (probably scan tool first )

Whadya reckon folks did I miss/oops any?

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Failing split charge relay perhaps? Seems these are known to give bother. Have you a wiring diagram or factory service manual?

None of my theories are going to offer any hypothesis on the door locks but here goes.
Is the remaining unchanged battery known to be good? Is this the starter or electronics one? Is it a "sealed" battery? If yes do you fancy breaking in there and testing it with a hydrometer?

Split charge relay test:

• Run engine if you can and listen/feel it clicks when it ought.
• Check for bulging/meltage over-temp while operating, if you can open it have a look and see if it's free to move, no cracked insulation, moisture, burnt smell, dirt, corrosion etc.
• Need more data on this one I'd rather not guess. To bench test it you'd need to energise the coil and see if the internal switch throws as it should. Might require voltage sensing to operate. Any documentation on this?
• Possibly safe enough bypass it (link the battery positives....I'm not suggesting you do though without at least ringing a dealership, professional or in-the-know-type to make sure) and test by elimination. Are both batteries similar voltage, capacity and chemistry?

If it is the split charge relay and you feel it necessary to have one I can probably recommend a better one that's not OEM.

Battery testing: (after full mains charge on a trusty charger + 24hour float+ 24hour rest)

• Hydrometer reading, fast, accurate, requires opening the battery cells, safety wear.
• Discharge testing takes 10 + 24hours; 10 hour discharge with fixed load (to 50% DOD), 24 hours rest to recuperate then voltage test. If anticipated results are low then may require baby-sitting to prevent over-discharge.
• Self-discharge testing; disconnect, allow rest for a week in 10°C - 20°C then voltage/discharge/hydrometer/all of the above test to see how much capacity you've lost.
• Swap remaining questionable battery out for known good battery and see if symptoms mitigate.

Charging system test (with running engine),

• Stick a voltmeter on a battery/set of terminals/outlet with engine running, voltage test. Anything above 13v ( >14v expected) indicates a working alternator.
• Alternator load testing: turn on all the lights, blower, what-have-yous, voltage test. Anything above 13v (>13.4v expected) alternator is good. (don't do this for too long at idle your alternator may get hot and grumpy).
• Eyeball the serpentine belt and ensure it's spinning as fast as the alternator pulley (not slipping/correct tension) and verify with alternator loaded and/or bleeding the power steering (lock to lock).

Charging system (bench test).

• Remove alternator brushes check they are longer than 5mm (if they're removable)
• Eyeball slip rings for heavy wear, pitting, eccentricity.
• Check alternator pulley has no unnecessary play.
• Look at alternator terminals and wire connectors for heavy corrosion, clean where necessary.
• Diode/resistance test between alternator +ive and -ive (casing) to check bridge rectifier (diode pack): should be min resistance from -ive to +ive and max from +ive to -ive on resistance test. Equal values = dead diode. or continuity one way and open circuit the other on diode test.
• Check slip rings for continuity, they should have (open coil test), and slip ring to casing (short circuit test) should be none.
• Check slip rings for continuity to alternator +ives (not entirely sure about this, probably should have).
• Disconnect batteries (mulit-meter protection...don't send 12v down the continuity meter circuit, it'll damage a cheapy. PS...radio code...), check alternator connector +ives to +ive battery clamp have continuity probably requires a meter probe extending wire.
• Check all fuses for continuity.
  
  

Simple fuel pump test:

• Open fuel cap and stick an ear to the funnel while a friend turns to pre-crank ignition see if you can hear it prime, sometimes sticking a prybar directly to the fuel tank to a pressed ear-lobe works better. Try a few times turning key off ->pre-ignition.

After that I'd go for a scan tool or an auto-sparky (probably scan tool first )

Whadya reckon folks did I miss/oops any?

Wow thanks for that sirliamalot, must have a go at that, you mentioned before about all fuses being good.. Which fuses? Would assume if a fuse gone id see other issues? But please advise. Btw checked batts with engine running and getting > 14vdc. Thanks again

vinniem

Also btw can anyone recommend a good auto/ electric mechanic in Clonmel -Waterford-kilkenny area? Baring main dealers :-)

Every blade fuse in the vehicle. You could have 3+ fuse compartments.
Immobiliser?
Key Fob, Key Fob battery?...try with spare key maybe.

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Every blade fuse in the vehicle. You could have 3+ fuse compartments.
Immobiliser?
Key Fob, Key Fob battery?...try with spare key maybe.

Thanks, yeah tried both keys with same outcome. Will check all fuses later tonight, hopefully something simple like that :-)

Clean (shiney), tight battery clamps (shouldn't turn on battery posts). Same for connections to battery clamps and starter solenoid.

Aidan_M_M

Any competent mechanic should be able to sort it, I have no specified auto electrician training yet fix all sorts of wiring issues! Lol

vinniem

Hi All, thanks for all the help. Turned out to be a ground on one of my batteries, although everything looked fine clean and tight...was not good enough. Cleaned more and tightened problem solved. I know some cars/vans can act funny with dodgy grounds, ECU's dont like it ;-0
I now have another problem with lighting tho, all my high and low marker lights not working, also back light RHS and front bulb RHS. Could this be down again to a bad/rusted earth connection at one of the bulbs? Had washed camper on Saturday gone...Thanks

Kudos. Fell afoul of a similar issue myself recently and of course it was the last thing I checked, but not in the obvious way, it was the last thing it could have been circuitwise re-crimped all the connections, opened up the relay and tried modifying it with diode supression....plenty other antics too.

Bad grounding on a bulb somethings manifests as adjacent lights coming on together as the path to ground is easier through another filament. That's why you occasionally see brake lights dimly flashing with indicators.

Clean 'em all, do no harm it's one thing off the list, chasing electrical problems is systematic, you have to try/test everything starting with the most likely. DC only uses conductor surface area, if it's covered in gunk then it doesn't conduct. In any case if it looks like it needs doing no point in waiting for it to fail before you get to it.

Safe to assume all your fuses are good?
If a bulb fails a continuity test it's a broken filament, replace bulb.
If the bulb socket isn't giving you 12v with the lights on it's a fault upstream. If it is but it looks crusty it's likely entropic impedance (corrosion) either on the holder or bulb or both, maybe just enough to fool a meter but not a bulb (higher current load).

Markers like parking lights in the headlamps or a strip along the side of the vehicle? Check wiring diagram; they could be in a funny place, like instrumentation cluster lighting. How many bulbs are out?

vinniem

vinniem wrote: »

Turned out to be a ground on one of my batteries, although everything looked fine clean and tight...was not good enough. Cleaned more and tightened problem solved.

Sometimes this is the sort of behaviour from a broken wire, fiddling with it remedies it temporarily as a loose connection is made. If it goes again likely a wiggle in that vicinity with some electrical items on will oust the culprit. Had a loose connection in a socket once, drove me cracked because every time I tested it with the meter it read ok because of the pressure I was applying with the meter probe.

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Sometimes this is the sort of behaviour from a broken wire, fiddling with it remedies it temporarily as a loose connection is made. If it goes again likely a wiggle in that vicinity with some electrical items on will oust the culprit. Had a loose connection in a socket once, drove me cracked because every time I tested it with the meter it read ok because of the pressure I was applying with the meter probe.

Thanks..thats great advice will start looking this evening. Wife had said othernight as i was parking up and she outside that the low lighters orange fellas were flickering flashing. You asked how many bulbs...well think six low line ones, two high ones. Then rear right red light, right door back of indicator yellow marker and front headlight small bulb so I make it 11 bulbs not illuminating :-(

11! :eek:
Set a few mouse traps!

Markers are line faults so. If cleaning doesn't work I'll think of something else later .