Why is there no direct service from the Aran Islands to Dublin?

Bobby The Builder

Before anyone mentions supply and demand, I acknowledge that there would be little demand, but the flight from Conemara to each of the Aran Islands is still low demand, but the government subsidizes most of the flights across which is why it is only 20 quid (or thereabouts) for islanders to take the route but extortionate for non-islanders. Surely there would be demand for such a service (such as each of the Aran Islands via Conemara) to the Big Shmoke especially around Christmas and Easter and St. Patrick's Day and In Summer to accommodate the tourists who might like a quick day trip to Conemara and the Aran Islands.

Thoughts ?

urajoke

Bobby The Builder wrote: »

Before anyone mentions supply and demand, I acknowledge that there would be little demand, but the flight from Conemara to each of the Aran Islands is still low demand, but the government subsidizes most of the flights across which is why it is only 20 quid (or thereabouts) for islanders to take the route but extortionate for non-islanders. Surely there would be demand for such a service (such as each of the Aran Islands via Conemara) to the Big Shmoke especially around Christmas and Easter and St. Patrick's Day and In Summer to accommodate the tourists who might like a quick day trip to Conemara and the Aran Islands.

Thoughts ?

Quite possibly would be a demand during the summer but the number of types of aircraft that can fly into the Aran Islands is limited so therefore the cost of the aircraft plus number of seats on the aircraft, the cost per seat could be expensive. Now try selling seats at €200 or whatever to the Aran Islands.

Cessna caravan seats 9 the islander 9. But the caravan is faster. Put the islander into a 20kt+ headwind it's a long flight.

Most potential passengers would be touring around the west so it's a natural trip across in a few minutes. You could use Weston but using Dublin would be a nightmare.

L1011

Demand. There isn't any realistically

When the islands flights flew to Carnmore there may have been some transfers passengers from whoever was operating DUB-GWY at the time, but clearly not enough for a direct.

folbotcar

I doubt if there is the much of a demand from Dublin. More logical services would be from Shannon or Galway airport (which isn't dead and gone yet ). In the past Aer Arann were forced to operate from Shannon for a while and managed to generate some tourist traffic during the season.

But it seems to me that Aer Arann Islands don't exactly market their product with any great enthusiasm. They seem content with the status quo. It wasn't always that way. In the early days they tried various services around Ireland with varying degrees of success. But once the larger Aer Arann was spun off they stuck to the island service and in the end this could be their downfall. In any case the Islanders are noisy, cramped and uncomfortable. Flying from Dublin in one of those is only for hardiest tourist.

It seems to me that properly marketed there is untapped tourist potential out to the Aran Islands from either Shannon or Galway. Maybe someone will do something about that this year........

BeardySi

folbotcar wrote: »

I.... In any case the Islanders are noisy, cramped and uncomfortable. Flying from Dublin in one of those is only for hardiest tourist...

The planes are quite small too....

The_Wanderer

Treadhead wrote: »

The planes are quite small too....

Yes...I did have to do a double read of that post.

folbotcar

You're a bad man. I accidentally upset an islander once, a person not the plane. I really didn't know there were so many bad words in Irish!

As for the aircraft well this is funny if you know the BN2 Islander and even if you don't:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7390/11852621844_99380cc453_o.jpg

A319er

Well briefly Harbour flights intl were to run a float plane Lmk Gwy Ior
But the base in mountshannon is deserted these days and the floatplane is no more, pity

islanderre

The helicopter operator that was at Galway Airport also once upon a time had plans to operate return flights to the Islands but in the end these amounted to nothing....

I really like the Islander Aircraft........ a solid dependable aircraft...... EI-AYN, & EI-BCE has served the islands very well....... they now have a newer one too but have not flown that one yet.

CelticRambler

folbotcar wrote: »

It seems to me that properly marketed there is untapped tourist potential out to the Aran Islands from either Shannon or Galway. Maybe someone will do something about that this year........

Maybe ... but not this year. :rolleyes: There is one operator who agrees with you about untapped potential and is in discussions with a specialist training provider to operate a higher-capacity STOL aircraft to/from the islands but this training is based on existing protocols for altiports which benefit from a steeply sloped runway, not a characteristic of any of the Aran Islands runways! So both pilots and aircraft would be operating at the limit of their certification. Two-three years is more likely (possibly longer by the time commercial and IAA negotiations are added into the mix).

folbotcar

That's interesting, Celtic Rambler. I think one of the features of the Aran Island services is the short turnaround times which is I believe is an issue for turbine engines. At least it was when Aer Arann looked into it. Otherwise we might have seen Twin Otters in use before now.

The question is how do you replace the Islanders? There aren't too many STOL piston twins still being manufactured and I would have thought single engine over water is problematic for the authorities. Although I do think that could be overcome by ensuring the aircraft is never beyond gliding distance of land.

But beyond all that there is room for scenic flying if not to the islands then on the west coast generally. Maybe as an add on for a current operator. I hear someone is seriously looking at this and it's not Harbour Flights!

It seems to me that Aer Arann Islands is too far into it's comfort zone. It's been the only dog in town for a long time now. But times have changed.

L1011

Aurigny are replacing their Trislanders with RUAG do228NG - which are turboprop. They leased one temporarily to evaluate it so they must have found any limitations tolerable.

folbotcar

Yes but aren't they longer sectors? I'm not sure about Aer Arann but don't they hop from island to island picking up passengers before heading back to the mainland?

Even if that issue is sorted there's still the cost of acquiring Dorniers and it's also a step up in terms of maintenance.

L1011

Aurigny have a mix of tiny and longer sectors. Aer Arann do island hop sometimes - I've been on all three islands in one r/t to Inisheer; other times they're all Conemara Regional <-> specific islands.

I would imagine its a case of looking at the former eastern bloc or possibly India as the source of a new small airframe if Twotters/228s aren't suitable - this being something all Islander operators have to consider in the next while. The 228 is mostly built by HAL in India anyway though.

pclancy

Bobby The Builder wrote: »

Before anyone mentions supply and demand, I acknowledge that there would be little demand

I wouldnt have thought there was any other real explanation other then the above, little demand!

Plus, people would expect a decent sized aircraft for a journey of that length, with a toilet and some kind of refreshments probably. 20 minutes on an islander is just about as much as most people would put up with

folbotcar

PcClancy perhaps you've been away from Ireland too long and forgotten just how small it is. Even at 100 kts it's barely an hour's journey. Even the Islander is faster than that at about 140kts? No need for refreshments or a toilet.

But you're right there wouldn't be a demand from Dublin and 20 minutes is quite enough in an Islander. But they're still making them so maybe they're a bit more refined now.

I could easily see a demand created from Galway airport though if it's marketed properly.

CelticRambler

In fact there is more (potential) demand from outside the Galway Bay area because people who've already made it as far as Doolin/Galway/Ros a' Mhíl are typically on longer West-of-Ireland holidays and have made provision for a trip out to Inishmore at least (boat or 'plane). Overseas tourists frequently underestimate how much time they need to visit Ireland. If/when they find themselves in other corners of the country (... OK, Dublin's not in a corner ... ) and behind schedule still with a long list of must-see destinations, they would appreciate the "short-cut" offered by a direct air service. At least that's what the market research says.

MYOP - yes, former Eastern Bloc aircraft (people who know how to make real aeroplanes !)

Aestivalis

folbotcar wrote: »

PcClancy perhaps you've been away from Ireland too long and forgotten just how small it is. Even at 100 kts it's barely an hour's journey. Even the Islander is faster than that at about 140kts? No need for refreshments or a toilet.

To be fair though, if you take into account boarding, climbing out, and getting in the pattern for landing at dub and then until you unload at dub it would be fairly longer than an hour I'd think.

Maybe I'm wrong though.

also, the thread above this about the cork crash reminded me. The aircraft used for the Belfast - Cork route had no crew or toilets and thats a longer journey.

Irish Steve

HAve you ever flown in an Islander on a windy day, which is not uncommon in that part of the world? 140 Kts in to the teeth of a westerly gale is no fun, a long time ago, I did a local flight on one in the UK, and into wind, it was a slow job covering the ground. It's also only a 9 seater., and things that small are not encouraged at DUB these days, the problems it causes with separation and ground occupancy times makes for unhappy users at peak periods, as 29 is no longer available for use, which was the answer for small aircraft in the past. Flight time is going to be around an hour, depending on how far out towards Holyhead they vector it, time on the ground will add considerably to that.

sawdoubters

the service is only set to keep the islands alive

http://www.visitaranislands.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=408

pclancy

I think in reality if this was commercially viable someone, very probably Aer Arann, would already be doing it.

Note the OP is sitebanned so probably isnt reading this unless he's re-regged yet again

folbotcar

So Bobby was naughty then!

To be fair I couldn't see any service being operated from Dublin airport or as a scheduled service. More a tourist operation from Weston if there was a market which they're probably isn't.

Leaving aside the original question any do think there's a gap in the tourist market here in terms of scenic and or charter flying. Living out there in New Zealand. I'm sure you see plenty of operators offering this kind of service?

As for Aer Arann Islands. It seems to me they are in a vulnerable position with this annual renewal of the licence. If some other operator came along who were less dependant on the revenue from the island service. They could be in trouble.

Irish Steve

folbotcar wrote: »

So Bobby was naughty then!

To be fair I couldn't see any service being operated from Dublin airport or as a scheduled service. More a tourist operation from Weston if there was a market which they're probably isn't.

Leaving aside the original question any do think there's a gap in the tourist market here in terms of scenic and or charter flying. Living out there in New Zealand. I'm sure you see plenty of operators offering this kind of service?

As for Aer Arann Islands. It seems to me they are in a vulnerable position with this annual renewal of the licence. If some other operator came along who were less dependant on the revenue from the island service. They could be in trouble.

Tourism.. I'd love to see something like a replica HP42

Article about them
http://www.barthworks.com/aviation/handleypage/handleypage.htm

, or similar, doing low level flights round parts of Mayo and Galway, Clare and Kerry. there is some spectacular scenery to be seen (in the right weather conditions) down to the south west of Westport, and in other places, as long as the aircraft it's being done in can fly low and slow.

Aer Arran Islands is a very niche operation, and it would be hard for another operator to come in on to that service. I think they own the strip that they are based at, so for another operator to come in, they are going to need a base, and establishing another base would not be easy, the airborne time has to be as short as possible to keep the operating costs down.

folbotcar

A HP42. Yes that would be nice for someone like me and you and yes it would bring in the enthusiasts. But it's hard at times to get people into a modern aircraft without the drama of convincing them that the archaic looking vehicle in front of them is perfectly safe.

The islands operation is very niche alright and they obviously have their own base. Which is far enough out of town for it to be a little inconvenient for visitors unlike Galway airport which is the obvious base for our notional new operator.

It isn't so far fetched the someone, perhaps someone with access to an AOC and suitable aircraft could set up a small operation out of Galway airport, advertise it heavily among tourists to the west coast and indeed locals. Offer flights over the Burren, Connemara. The cliffs of Moher, over the islands, Lough Corrib and up towards Mayo, Westport, Clew bay.

I could see something like that taking off quite soon.