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TEEU ballots members (electricians) for national strike

  • 20-01-2014 5:16pm
    #1
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    January 19th, 2014

    The Technical Engineering and Electrical Union is balloting its 6,500 members in the electrical contracting industry for strike action in defence of pay rates, which employers have declared they will reduce on a firm by firm basis. TEEU General Secretary Eamon Devoy has written to the Electrical Contractors Association, the largest employer group, notifying it of the ballot.

    In the letter Mr Devoy says he expects to serve notice of industrial action on all employers once the ballot concludes on February 7th. He added that “strike action may be taken nationally against all employers simultaneously or strategically against individual employers as determined by the Executive Council of the Union.”

    The dispute arises out of a Supreme Court decision last May to strike out all existing Registered Employment Agreements as unconstitutional. These agreements have set pay and conditions for designated sectors such as electrical contracting since 1925 and provided for registration with the Labour Court since 1946. The electrical agreement had been registered with the Labour Court since 1990.

    Under former agreements and Labour Court recommendations TEEU members are entitled to pay rates of €24.78 an hour from April 1st, 2014, but the ECA wants to cut the existing rate of €21.49 by ten per cent down to €19.34. The union had been willing to discuss the ECA proposals, but only in the context of a new Registered Employment Agreement that would protect overall industry standards.

    The union has pointed out that, despite the Supreme Court decision, while the agreement is no longer registered with the Labour Court it remains extant and still constitutes a National Collective Agreement as it was for 65 years before it was registered in 1990.

    “During the last nine years our members have been faced with serious austerity measures including both direct and indirect tax increases, negative equity in their homes and loss of medical insurance as well as a fall in earnings”, Mr Devoy said today. “The TEEU has continually tried to reach agreement with the employers about how to plan a sustainable recoverey strategy for the industry.

    “Unfortunately the employer groups have continued to squabble amongst themselves and it now seems that they intend allowing the law of the jungle to prevail with every company negotiating its own rates of pay directly with employees. Such a development would lead inevitably to a situation where not only employment but consumer and safety standards would plummet.

    “It is in no one’s interest that this should happen except for a few cowboy operators whose only interest is in winning a quick buck and moving on to rip off the next customer.”

    The last time the TEEU undertook industrial action on behalf of members in electrical contracting the construction industry was brought to a standstill, as well as many manufacturing plants. There was an emergency debate in Dail Eireann and the then Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Mary Coughlan, asked the Labour Court to intervene. It found TEEU members were entitled an increase of 4.9 per cent and recommended they be paid but employers failed to impelement it.

    Link:
    http://www.teeu.ie/2014_01_19.asp

    This will be interesting.
    There are a number of large projects kicking off at the moment.
    From what I can gather these projects were priced on the basis of the present rates.
    I think that the clients in these cases (large multi nationals) will insist that the large electrical contractors that they use do not impose the 10% pay cut. However small and medium sized electrical contractors may take different view.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭mcgragger


    2011 wrote: »
    Link:
    http://www.teeu.ie/2014_01_19.asp

    This will be interesting.
    There are a number of large projects kicking off at the moment.
    From what I can gather these projects were priced on the basis of the present rates.
    I think that the clients in these cases (large multi nationals) will insist that the large electrical contractors that they use do not impose the 10% pay cut. However small and medium sized electrical contractors may take different view.

    How many small firms hhave been paying the full rate?
    Not many for the last few years.
    10% is over 4k a year.
    That's a lot to be be taking off someone's wages .
    Strike is right IMO


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    mcgragger wrote: »
    How many small firms hhave been paying the full rate?

    I have no idea.
    What would you think?
    10% is over 4k a year.

    It could be €4k, but that really depends on how many hours are worked in the year.
    Strike is right IMO

    Have you ever been on strike?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭mcgragger


    2011 wrote: »
    I have no idea.
    What would you think?



    It could be €4k, but that really depends on how many hours are worked in the year.



    Have you ever been on strike?

    Basic rate is 21.42. So that x 39 hours x 52 weeks is approx 43k. 10% is about 4.3k of basic pay.

    I know alot of smaller firms are not paying the union rates yet still charging them.
    In some cases the big companies aren't either.

    I started serving my time just just before the strike in the 90s so didn’t know what was going on. Was told to stay at home.

    Company I worked for used to price jobs based on an amount of electricians then flood the place with apprentices. Making a fortune


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    Bloody Private Sector...always threatening strikes if they don't get thier way.

    I'd sack them all and nationalise the industry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭thecribber


    This action by the TEEU will most likely cost many electricians their jobs. The outdated Registered Employment Agreement system keep wages at artificially high levels. The union must accept that the demise of the system will result in non TEEU employments becoming more cost effective. If the union force high wages on ECA member company's which employ their members, these employers will not be able to compete with the many employers who are not dictated to by the TEEU.

    By the way, there is no such thing as a National Collective Agreement for the electrical contracting industry, this term is a figment of Mr Devoys imagination.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭mcgragger


    thecribber wrote: »
    This action by the TEEU will most likely cost many electricians their jobs. The outdated Registered Employment Agreement system keep wages at artificially high levels. The union must accept that the demise of the system will result in non TEEU employments becoming more cost effective. If the union force high wages on ECA member company's which employ their members, these employers will not be able to compete with the many employers who are not dictated to by the TEEU.

    By the way, there is no such thing as a National Collective Agreement for the electrical contracting industry, this term is a figment of Mr Devoys imagination.

    So why do contractors charge electricians out at €35 per hour minimum?

    I am a long time out of the game (on the tools) however as a facilities manager I often employ contractors to work for me. The average charge out rate is €35 per hour and thats cheap. Some companies are more expensive. Am I likely to see a reduction in my costs if the lads on the ground take a 10% hit. Not likely I think.

    Its the usual way that people on the ground doing the back breaking work get the short end of the stick.
    Let me see where the big contractors like mercury/dornans/jones eng etc cut the union rates and pass on savings to me as a customer. Its not going to happen. The union is there to protect workers.

    Approx €42k a year is not an artificially high wage, and its certainly not going to make anyone rich, a man with 2 kids and a mortgage will barely make ends meet on that. Its an average wage for the industry.

    The industry has already cut the **** out of rates without passing on the " savings" to us. This again I know for a fact. I have employed contractors paying lads €17 an hour and charging me full whack.

    look if reducing the rates will create more jobs by creating more work then I am all for it but how is it going to help? The building industry in general is on its arse and cutting electricians wages will not help the industry.All of the big companies are ticking over and some are even mobilising on big projects again.

    Ive seen it from both sides So i say stick firm for your rates lads

    *apologies for typeset, ctrl button is broken(thanks to baby)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭thecribber


    It is my opinion that the quality of many so called electricians is low and most are not worth the universal TEEU rate. As for the charge out rate, lets do the sums.
    TEEU rate €21.47 plus CWPS pension (Still being paid despite not a legal requirement) plus employers PRSI of 10.75% (Tax on employment) plus 9 Bank Holidays plus 21 days holidays (30 days wages to pay with no charge out possible) and don't forget The TEEU €165 travel allowance per week, Oh 5hit, gone over €35 per hour.

    Some Electricians working for the larger firms went on strike to satisfy the ego of the small man Eamonn Devoy and the gum chewing Arthur Hall in 2009 and got nothing. Electrical contracting is one of the few industry's where pay has not decreased since the recession kicked in in 2008. Believe me this action by the TEEU will cost jobs,as will the actions of the Unions in Kerry


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭mcgragger


    Pay has decreased. Union rates haven't. There are alot of companies not paying union rates. Contractors choose to operate and make money on charging out labour. They are not doing it for free.
    You seem to have a dislike for Devoy?
    He is not responsible for the poor quality of some trades men. In fact you can only blame employers for that.
    A proposed strike wont bother me but why is it always the men that do the work losing money?
    Let's see company wide reductions first or some ideas about how to save costs.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,377 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    mcgragger wrote: »
    So why do contractors charge electricians out at €35 per hour minimum?

    ...

    The industry has already cut the **** out of rates without passing on the " savings" to us. This again I know for a fact. I have employed contractors paying lads €17 an hour and charging me full whack.
    Never hire a consultant because you'll die of the heart attack when you get their hourly rate bill vs. what the consultant is paid per hour...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    I'm not an electrician but will fully support them if they strike. Employers in this country are using the economic situation to increase their profits by screwing workers, (eg those that abuse job bridge). I really hope the electrician stand firm against a cut to their take home wage, Like the rest of us they have suffered enough cuts to their available income.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9 Smacanri


    The aim is to have electricians working for minimum wage, and it gets worse, Minister Pat Rabbitte introduced legislation which provides for 3 years imprisonment for a qualified electrician who replaces a RCD or installs a new circuit in their own home.

    On P::12 of Decision Paper on the Scope of Restricted Electrical Works

    “(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €15,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or both.”


    When we look at prison sentences which have been handed down, or not handed down in this state, I can only say Minister Pat Rabbitte must have a deep contempt for electricians.
    It could work out well for rogue employers, maybe now, if someone strikes, they can call the CER and have him locked up for 3 years because he checked a fuse board for his granny a few months ago.
    If I was starting again, I wouldn't get into the trade.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Bloody Private Sector...always threatening strikes if they don't get thier way.

    I'd sack them all and nationalise the industry.

    Plenty of people on the dole that would do that work for half the salary!












    Where have we seen these comments before ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 931 ✭✭✭periodictable


    Bring back Maggie Thatcher and smash the unions!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,412 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    kceire wrote: »
    Plenty of people on the dole that would do that work for half the salary!







    Where have we seen these comments before ?

    Same could be said of your job :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    kceire wrote: »
    Plenty of people on the dole that would do that work for half the salary!

    Electrical work? Yea, brown to live, blue to neutral. Well done, you`re now qualified.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    94% voted for strike action:
    http://www.teeu.ie/news/showtest.asp?id=595


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    A question on this that somebody in the know might be able to explain to me.

    Why are the the TEEU allowed to ballot for a national strike across the whole industry and not just on an employer by employer basis?

    Marks and Spencer staff (for example) went on strike before Christmas. If their union (Mandate) had called out all members across all of the companies where they represent staff, this would be seen as secondary striking, and - as far as I understand it - this wouldn't be legal.

    Why can the TEEU do this - is it because of the REAs are nationally enforced agreements that action against them can also be national i.e. the dispute isn't really with the individual employers but with the state?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Same could be said of your job :D

    Ohh I know that. That's the point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    How much are they paid in the North / UK?

    that seems to be a valid comparison when discussing salaries, rates of pay etc?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Jawgap wrote: »
    How much are they paid in the North / UK?

    that seems to be a valid comparison when discussing salaries, rates of pay etc?

    Ony if its higher in the UK...if its lower, then the comparison is not applicable ;)


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    How much are they paid in the North / UK?

    that seems to be a valid comparison when discussing salaries, rates of pay etc?

    Different market.
    Different tax system.
    Cheaper motors
    cheaper motor tax
    cheaper groceries
    cheaper pennys clothing
    cheaper dunnes stores clothing
    free NHS
    house tax includes rubbish and water

    Not valid to compare irish and uk salaries no matter what sector you work in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    kceire wrote: »
    Different market.
    Different tax system.
    Cheaper motors
    cheaper motor tax
    cheaper groceries
    cheaper pennys clothing
    cheaper dunnes stores clothing
    free NHS
    house tax includes rubbish and water

    Not valid to compare irish and uk salaries no matter what sector you work in.

    I wasn't looking for a justification for the non-application of the pay cut in the context of the cost of living.

    I was simply suggesting that the union could price its members out of the market and make it easier for northern based contractors to get work down here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    The Muppet wrote: »
    Employers in this country are using the economic situation to increase their profits by screwing workers
    Evidence?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I was simply suggesting that the union could price its members out of the market and make it easier for northern based contractors to get work down here.

    I respect your opinion but why should we accomodate workers from out of state, we should be protecting the workers we still have here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9 Smacanri


    Maggie was a great fan of unions in Poland. Be careful what you wish for or you could end up working for minimum wage as well. Tell your boss tomorrow that you'll work for half the salary, you'll save on USC


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    I've no problem with strikes. Let them strike for as long as they like.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    kceire wrote: »
    I respect your opinion but why should we accomodate workers from out of state, we should be protecting the workers we still have here.

    Generally I'd agree but in situations where incomes are tight then you can't blame people for shopping around to get the best deal as in decent workmanship at reasonable cost.........not something you usually get from Irish contractors.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Icepick wrote: »
    Evidence?

    Here
    mcgragger wrote: »
    So why do contractors charge electricians out at €35 per hour minimum?

    I am a long time out of the game (on the tools) however as a facilities manager I often employ contractors to work for me. The average charge out rate is €35 per hour and thats cheap. Some companies are more expensive. Am I likely to see a reduction in my costs if the lads on the ground take a 10% hit. Not likely I think.

    Its the usual way that people on the ground doing the back breaking work get the short end of the stick.
    Let me see where the big contractors like mercury/dornans/jones eng etc cut the union rates and pass on savings to me as a customer. Its not going to happen. The union is there to protect workers.

    Approx €42k a year is not an artificially high wage, and its certainly not going to make anyone rich, a man with 2 kids and a mortgage will barely make ends meet on that. Its an average wage for the industry.

    The industry has already cut the **** out of rates without passing on the " savings" to us. This again I know for a fact. I have employed contractors paying lads €17 an hour and charging me full whack.

    look if reducing the rates will create more jobs by creating more work then I am all for it but how is it going to help? The building industry in general is on its arse and cutting electricians wages will not help the industry.All of the big companies are ticking over and some are even mobilising on big projects again.

    Ive seen it from both sides So i say stick firm for your rates lads

    *apologies for typeset, ctrl button is broken(thanks to baby)

    If you need more read this or google "jobbridge abuse".

    Enjoy.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    In my opinion it simply is not possible to pay a qualified electrician the present TEEU rate €21.49/hr to wire domestic installations (assuming that the installation is to be compliant with the ETCI regulations).

    To pay an electrician that rate costs the electrical contractor about €35 per hour when employers PRSI, pension, travel, meal money and holiday money is factored in. The average home owner simply will not/cannot afford to pay an electrician that much.

    I agree that in some cases (not all) it is possible to pay an "industrial" electrician €21.49 per hour, but it very much depends on the project.

    I my opinion that there should be a different qualification for an industrial electrician (as opposed to a domestic electrician) and possibly different grades of electrician.
    This should correspond with different rates of pay.
    The work carried out by a domestic electricians compared to industrial can be so completely different that they may as well be different trades.

    I have worked on industrial projects that have had budgets of tens of millions of euro and domestic projects that have had a budget of less than one hundread euro.
    Can I reasonably expect to wire house for the same pay? I think not.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    The Muppet wrote: »
    Here



    If you need more read this or google "jobbridge abuse".

    Enjoy.
    I mean real evidence, not some anecdotal post.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Icepick wrote: »
    I mean real evidence, not some anecdotal post.


    Apologies if my standard of evidence did not meet your requirements , but they suffice with mine to be able to stand over what I posted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    2011 wrote: »

    I have worked on industrial projects that have had budgets of tens of millions of euro and domestic projects that have had a budget of less than one hundread euro.
    Can I reasonably expect to wire house for the same pay? I think not.

    A house wiring job with a budget of €100. Interesting.

    The industrial project with tens of millions of a budget might have a million or 2 in losses. The house job might do better.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Bruthal wrote: »
    A house wiring job with a budget of €100. Interesting.

    Yes, there are many small domestic works that can cost as little as €100, such as installing a cooker circuit or a few extra sockets.
    The industrial project with tens of millions of a budget might have a million or 2 in losses.

    True.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,084 ✭✭✭enricoh


    i'm in meath and the lads here cant compete with the nordie contractors pricewise.
    the sparks gotta be on crap money up there, but with the low dole up there means that bosses arent competing with the dole n a nixer or two like they are down here
    i dont think 42k is in an way excessive for a skilled, qualified job by the way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9 Smacanri


    Bruthal,

    You have a point. I think you may be interested in this discussion as well:


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057138820&page=2

    Seosamh


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    The Muppet wrote: »
    Apologies if my standard of evidence did not meet your requirements , but they suffice with mine to be able to stand over what I posted.
    You don't have any as expected then.
    But hey, socialist ranting is enough to get you elected.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Icepick wrote: »
    You don't have any as expected then.
    But hey, socialist ranting is enough to get you elected.

    I posted the reasoning for my post citing examples, if that's not enough for you that's fine by me me, I can live with that.:D


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Smacanri wrote: »
    The aim is to have electricians working for minimum wage


    The rate of pay for an electrician is directly related to the demand for electricians.
    If there is less work around for those that employ electricians REC’s (Registered Electrical Contractors), then there are more electricians out of work and the pay that an electrician can demand reduces accordingly. The usual supply and demand story.

    Obviously if more and more electricians do "nixers" there is less work available for REC's.
    To pay the rate that electricians are demanding as well as all of the other overheads that are incurred in running a business REC's cannot compete on price with those that are doing nixers.
    This is having a massive impact on their business.
    One way of being more competitive is to reduce costs by paying less.
    Another is to pay less for materials, but unfortunately the price of copper has doubled and tripled in the last few years consequently the price of cables have done the same :eek:
    Minister Pat Rabbitte introduced legislation which provides for 3 years imprisonment for a qualified electrician who replaces a RCD or installs a new circuit in their own home.
    On P::12 of Decision Paper on the Scope of Restricted Electrical Works

    “(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €15,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or both.”

    So you want it both ways?
    More pay for electricians and they should be permitted to do all the nixers that they like?

    Or do you want some special dispensation in law so that qualified electricians can do electrical on their own home, their girlfriend's/aunt's/second cousin once removed/parent's home as well?
    Do you not understand that those that are doing nixers are taking away work from those that supply employment for electricians? :confused:
    There is also a loss of tax revenue for the government, which traditionally is something that governments tend to legislate against. Yet this seems to surprise you! :confused:

    I am not surprised that this practice has been made illegal.

    People (some qualified and some not qualified) were carrying out all sorts of electrical work for cash, without insurance, no certification, no test equipment and with no oversight whatsoever.

    I am not for one moment suggesting that all REC's are perfect, (far from it in fact) but at least they are insured, have the required test equipment and we now have the Commission for Energy Regulation (CER) in place. REC's that that ignore the regulations can and will be taken to task if RECI or the ECSSA fail to deal with them in a proper manner.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Icepick wrote: »
    I mean real evidence, not some anecdotal post.

    I wouldn't say it applies to all companies, the company I work for have been quite fair really. When they didn't have money, we got nothing, lost our health insurance subsidy. But when they did, we received pay rises and Xmas bonuses again - hopefully health insurance or pension contributions down the line.

    But I've seen what 'TheMuppet' is referring to first hand with my partner and her company.
    (I don't think I can publicly post their name, but I can pm you the name)

    This is still anecdotal, but might help to provide an outline of what is going on in unskilled industries.
    First, Multiple more expensive long term workers (mostly Irish) were laid off and cheaper workers (Polish) were hired, to do the same job on the same contracts.

    Then, many workers on contracts with paid lunchbreaks were given new contracts with unpaid lunchbreaks and salary reductions and told sign or you're fired.
    I personally rang "NERA" about this, and they confirmed it is illegal, but unless you're going to hire a solicitor, there is nothing you can do about it.

    No talk of union involvement is permitted. Overtime rates were scrapped. Working on bank holidays became mandatory.
    Majortiy of workers are now in PRSI Table A-0 and don't even pay PRSI any more, because their income is so low. Despite this, expensive new machinery was bought for the premises and managers received pay increases.
    Many of the Irish workers just left and went on social welfare.

    For a while I was tending toward a more right wing view and Libertarianism ideals, but what I've seen first hand what that company gave me a reality check and brought me back to centre.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    This is still anecdotal, but might help to provide an outline of what is going on in unskilled industries.

    Your post refers to specifically to "unskilled industries".

    Electricians are far from unskilled, they have completed a 4 year apprenticeship and require a further 5 years to reach "full proficiency".
    The present system has been designed so that it takes 9 years before an electrician can claim the highest hourly rate of pay.


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    The Muppet wrote: »
    I posted the reasoning for my post citing examples, if that's not enough for you that's fine by me me, I can live with that.:D

    You have the entire internet at your disposal.

    If that is the best you can come up with you cannot expect to be very convincing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    2011 wrote: »
    Your post refers to specifically to "unskilled industries".

    Electricians are far from unskilled, they have completed a 4 year apprenticeship and require a further 5 years to reach "full proficiency".
    The present system has been designed so that it takes 9 years before an electrician can claim the highest hourly rate of pay.

    Certainly, you're correct.

    I really don't know haven't the first iota about that industry so I couldn't really debate it specifically, and you made a lot of good points concerning different grades for domestic and industrial etc.

    But I would still agree with TheMuppet's statement that many employers are using the economic climate as an excuse to maximize their profits, in unskilled industries.

    I can't say if it's happening in skilled industries, because I don't know. I suppose it's possible but my experience is that skilled workers have an extra layer of protection which unskilled workers do not, as long as labour supply is low.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    But I would still agree with TheMuppet's statement that many employers are using the economic climate as an excuse to maximize their profits, in unskilled industries.

    I agree that some employers may be using the economic climate as an excuse to maximize their profits, in unskilled industries.
    However in his earlier post The Muppet appears to be referring to electricians:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88703001&postcount=11

    I suppose it's possible but my experience is that skilled workers have an extra layer of protection which unskilled workers do not, as long as labour supply is low.

    Agreed.
    But as you suggest the "supply and demand" issue is key.

    From what I have seen the market is flooded with out of work electricians that have limited experience overall and little or no industrial experience.

    These individuals tend not appeal to employers that have positions to offer on the higher paying projects.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    2011 wrote: »
    However in his earlier post The Muppet appears to be referring to electricians:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88703001&postcount=11

    That's just your imagination, I didn't specify employers in the electrical sector, Had I intended to say that I would have.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    The Muppet wrote: »
    That's just your imagination, I didn't specify employers in the electrical sector, Had I intended to say that I would have.

    Sorry my mistake :rolleyes:

    My "imagination" made me think that you were referring to electricians in post #11 on this thread because you mentioned them twice:
    (Note: I added the bold)
    The Muppet wrote: »
    I'm not an electrician but will fully support them if they strike.

    The Muppet wrote: »
    I really hope the electrician stand firm against a cut to their take home wage,

    :confused::confused:

    Have a look youself:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88703001&postcount=11

    However if your position is that you were not referring to electricians then your point is not relvent to this thread.
    (Note: If you don't understand why there is a clue in the thread title)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    2011 wrote: »
    Sorry my mistake :rolleyes:

    My "imagination" made me think that you were referring to electricians in post #11 on this thread because you mentioned them twice:
    (Note: I added the bold)



    :confused::confused:

    Have a look youself:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88703001&postcount=11

    However if your position is that you were not referring to electricians then your point is not relvent to this thread.
    (Note: If you don't understand why there is a clue in the thread title)

    Stop digging. Of course its relevant "Employers" is quite an easy term to understand, I should not need to explain its relevance to you.

    I'm done with you nit picking nonsense.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    The Muppet wrote: »
    Stop digging. Of course its relevant "Employers" is quite an easy term to understand, I should not need to explain its relevance to you.

    So which is it?
    Are you talking about employers in general or those that employ electricians?

    Post #11 suggests clearly to me that you are referring to those that employ electricians, yet in post #45 you tell me that this is not the case it is just my "imagination"? :confused::confused:

    You can't have it both ways :D:D


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Looks like the strike may have been averted:
    TEEU Press Release

    Major initiative to avert threat of national electricians strike – but threat remains for non-compliant employers.

    February 13th, 2014

    The threat of a national electricians strike has receded significantly following talks between the main employer bodies and Technical Engineering and Electrical Union at the Labour Relations Commission today. The General Secretary of the TEEU, Eamon Devoy, has welcomed the intervention of the LRC and thanked its Director of Conciliation Services, Kevin Foley, for his assistance.

    “Mr Foley identified the need for a new Registered Employment Agreement as the best means of restoring stability in the electrical contracting and the proposals he put forward on the basis that new legislation is pending is acceptable to us if the employer bodies confirm their acceptance of the LRC proposals over the weekend.”

    Under the LRC proposals the employer bodies have agreed to withdraw any claim for a ten per cent pay cut. In return the TEEU has agreed to withdraw its 4.9 per cent pay claim for the moment and pursue it through the proposed new legislation.

    The two employer organisations, the Electrical Contractors Association (ECA) and the Association of Electrical Contractors, Ireland, (AECI) are to recommend the LRC proposals to their members over the weekend. If ECA and AECI members agree to the LRC proposals then the TEEU executive management committee will meet on Monday and agree to withdraw notice of a national strike.

    “However”, Mr Devoy warned, “the decision to undertake strategic strikes will remain in place against employers who remain non-compliant with the national collective agreement for the electrical contracting industry.”

    See TEEU link


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    On one hand we have the TEEU issuing this statement:
    February 17th, 2014
    The National Dispute in the Electrical Contracting Industry has been rescinded. However, Strategic Strikes against Individual Non-compliant Contractors will proceed next week.

    The Executive Council of the TEEU has decided to give notice to individual contractors that from Wednesday, February 26th, strategic disputes will take place at sites where the TEEU has been advised of non-compliance with the National Collective Agreement for the Electrical Contracting Industry, previously registered with the Labour Court.


    .....and on the other hand we have this NECI response:
    WARNING

    There is currently no legally binding agreement in place in the Electrical Contracting Industry. There is also no National Collective Agreement in force. The TEEU have issued letters to the industry warning of Strategic Strike action against employers for non compliance with an agreement which does not exist. Any unlawful strike action by the TEEU against our members will be dealt with through the legal process.

    This could rumble on for a bit yet....

    Links:
    http://www.teeu.ie/2014_strategic_strikes.asp
    http://www.neci.ie/2014/02/teeu-warning/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 TomaszF


    Back in the 90's I returned from abroad I was being offered under the rate.
    I took a job as a night porter in a hotel rather than uncut the rates. Anything under the rate isn't worth it for the responsibility.


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