Phased leaving cert

Kinsailor

Family member wants to take Irish LC in 2015 ( jus finishing Ty ) and then do all subjects for points in 2016. DoE is saying I can't be done as all courses are to be taken over 2 years and Ty doesn't count as an academic year. Have heard however that private grind/special schools are doing this for multiple subjects. Is the DoE feedback correct and if so are there alternative approaches that are being followed by the private schools. Objective of proposal by student is to focus on subjects aligned with 3rd lvl course for max CAO points in 2016.
Thoughts? Thank you

spurious

The DES/SEC are correct. I wouldn't take what goes on in grinds businesses to be any sort of indicator of good educational practice.

DublinArnie

spurious wrote: »

The DES/SEC are correct. I wouldn't take what goes on in grinds businesses to be any sort of indicator of good educational practice.

Just curious, if private grind schools are teaching LC material at TY, that means they get an advantage when it comes to the LC exam as they had an extra year to learn the material. I know this is probably unlikely, but the students who go to these private schools will then have a better chance to get their chosen courses, and courses are limited, not everyone can take em, so that means someone who worked hard for two years gets their place taken by someone who studied at a private grinds school?

I'm not familiar with how the CAO system works so I might be wrong.

oncex

DublinArnie wrote: »

Just curious, if private grind schools are teaching LC material at TY, that means they get an advantage when it comes to the LC exam as they had an extra year to learn the material. I know this is probably unlikely, but the students who go to these private schools will then have a better chance to get their chosen courses, and courses are limited, not everyone can take em, so that means someone who worked hard for two years gets their place taken by someone who studied at a private grinds school?

I'm not familiar with how the CAO system works so I might be wrong.

Well if someone is paying 6000 for a school then of course they will have an advantage as the teachers objective is to get the highest grades as possible. If the grades weren't as good as they are, people wouldn't attend. Although this may be true for public schools, there isn't as much pressure to do well.

I have heard of people sitting ordinary english irish and french at the end of 5th year to meet the requirements, then in 6th year they do the option subjects. I don't see how they get away with it?

DublinArnie

oncex wrote: »

Well if someone is paying 6000 for a school then of course they will have an advantage as the teachers objective is to get the highest grades as possible. If the grades weren't as good as they are, people wouldn't attend. Although this may be true for public schools, there isn't as much pressure to do well.

I have heard of people sitting ordinary english irish and french at the end of 5th year to meet the requirements, then in 6th year they do the option subjects. I don't see how they get away with it?

So basically the rich people can get the best education? If you have the money, and a decent motivated student, you can do very well. I think that's flawed, but it's realistic and it's how the education system works.

Although I might be wrong, I go to a public school and teachers are very decent and good. Just annoys me, if you have the money, just fork it out and the SEC will not do anything.

Let all the people with the money take medicine courses etc and what not...:mad:

oncex

DublinArnie wrote: »

So basically the rich people can get the best education? If you have the money, and a decent motivated student, you can do very well. I think that's flawed, but it's realistic and it's how the education system works.

Although I might be wrong, I go to a public school and teachers are very decent and good. Just annoys me, if you have the money, just fork it out and the SEC will not do anything.

Let all the people with the money take medicine courses etc and what not...:mad:

Well I'm not sure would i be so radical on that notion, like if you want the points, you'll work for them no matter where you go to school, but the extra pressure probably does work in the end. Especially when the teachers jobs are on the line if the students don't get the results.

jwcurtin

DublinArnie wrote: »

Just curious, if private grind schools are teaching LC material at TY, that means they get an advantage when it comes to the LC exam as they had an extra year to learn the material. I know this is probably unlikely, but the students who go to these private schools will then have a better chance to get their chosen courses, and courses are limited, not everyone can take em, so that means someone who worked hard for two years gets their place taken by someone who studied at a private grinds school?

I'm not familiar with how the CAO system works so I might be wrong.

We were told in TY were we only able to cover up to 10% of any given course in TY. VEC School in Galway.

thelad95

In theory I'd imagine it's possible there is a number of factors to be considered however.

Courses are designed to be covered over two years. Just because grind schools do a lot of courses in one year doesn't mean its a craze in every school across the country.

Also, I stand to be corrected on this by any mods but you might have to pay a repeat fee if you do this. I am repeating this year and my exam fees are around €301 compared to around 120 for everyone else.

randylonghorn

DublinArnie wrote: »

Just curious, if private grind schools are teaching LC material at TY ...

I've never heard of a grind school offering TY, but I'm open to correction ... ?

Mr Pseudonym

Regarding the OP's question, if the practice exists, it is in no way widespread. I'd be very interested to know if it is achievable. I imagine, though, it won't be. Thelad95 makes a good point when he says, if it were achievable, one would effectively be repeating the LC and would, therefore, have to pay an increased rate.

The DoE regulations are very vague regarding Transition Year. On the one hand, they state clearly that TY, "should NOT be seen as an opportunity for spending three years rather than two studying Leaving Certificate material", while, on the other, permit, for instance, the teaching of a prescribed English LC text so long as it's done in a way "significantly different from the way in which it would have been treated in the two years to Leaving Certificate." There is an awful lot of ambiguity there that would allow schools to teach a significant amount of LC material at TY, IMO. However, in my experience, private schools do not.

randylonghorn wrote: »

I've never heard of a grind school offering TY, but I'm open to correction ... ?

The Institute of Education has a TY programme, but it is designed to cater for those who are unable to combine schooling with another activity, e.g. athletes.

Mr Pseudonym

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

The Institute of Education has a TY programme, but it is designed to cater for those who are unable to combine schooling with another activity, e.g. athletes.

This discussion caused me to go on to the Institute's website to answer a separate question. I chanced across the below:

Complete Leaving Certificate ‘Requirements Subjects’ in 5th Year

Subjects such as Irish, Maths and one foreign language are ‘Requirement Subjects’ for entry into most Irish 3rd level colleges. If a student starts a requirement subject in 4th Year, they may wish to consider sitting the Leaving Certificate exam in it at the end of their 5th year, as they will have completed 2 years of a senior cycle at this point.

Key Benefits - 4th Year | Institute of Education


The Institute offers a Transition Year alternative which they call "4th Year". From the perspective of DoE, those on it are senior-cycle students, and will therefore be eligible to sit the LC following another year of study. The Institute's "4th Year" is effectively a conventional fifth year, and, for the majority of students, would be unappealing. This doesn't help the OP, but it shows a way it's possible.

Kinsailor

Thank you Dublin Arnie : personally i dont care what people want to do with their money or where threy want to go (its a free world) BUT the DES should not allow a system whereby someone in one institution can apply under different rules to others in the state system. If the latter is the case we have a real example of discrimination

Kinsailor

Thank you Mr Pseudonym : Your research has illustrated the point nicely and confirmed what I thought was the case : although as pointed out by Thelad95 it would involve essentially doing a repeat LC and paying a higher fee , in the end the extra fee is modest if you can ease the exam load in the second exam period thereby and achieve the points necessary for the high demand courses .

It raises the next question that maybe somebody can comment on : Would a student doing a Senior Cycle 4th year in a grind school (as described above) be registered differently with DES vs a student doing a regular 4th Year TY program and can you be registered for the Snr Cycle 4th yr in selected subjects only ? ... Or are they essentially telling the DES that they are doing 5th year twice? ....

The option described on the Institiute's website is not generally available in other schools (and the DES says it cant be done) : If it is available and the DES are ignoring it, that is something which I feel is discriminatory

randylonghorn

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

The Institute of Education has a TY programme, but it is designed to cater for those who are unable to combine schooling with another activity, e.g. athletes.

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

The Institute offers a Transition Year alternative which they call "4th Year". From the perspective of DoE, those on it are senior-cycle students, and will therefore be eligible to sit the LC following another year of study. The Institute's "4th Year" is effectively a conventional fifth year, and, for the majority of students, would be unappealing. This doesn't help the OP, but it shows a way it's possible.

So really, it's not so much TY, as the first year of a 3-year LC offering. So in fact, those who choose to do say Irish at the end of fifth year (i.e. after 2 years) would have satisfied the 2 year course requirement as far as the DES is concerned.

Couldn't see it appealing to most students (or their parents, given the level of fees they charge!) but as you pointed out above, in special cases such as those following rigorous athletic training programmes which would make conventional schooling difficult, there might be advantages.

Interesting. Thank you for taking the time to look it up and posting back.

Kinsailor wrote: »

BUT the DES should not allow a system whereby someone in one institution can apply under different rules to others in the state system. If the latter is the case we have a real example of discrimination

Kinsailor wrote: »

The option described on the Institiute's website is not generally available in other schools (and the DES says it cant be done) : If it is available and the DES are ignoring it, that is something which I feel is discriminatory

But as I pointed out above, they're essentially (as the IoE offer it) opting for a 3 year LC programme, so completing say Irish at the end of 2 years would in fact satisfy the requirements.

It is of course discriminatory in another sense, as all such grind schools are ... it is only available to those who can afford huge fees each year. But that is a separate and a broader argument.