Pay for new entrants

ccazza

I have only just sat down and looked properly at the pay of new entrants - post 2011 and post Feb 2012. I just looked at the very top of the scale for comparison purposes and gave people an honours PGDE and honours degree. Presently when teachers hit the top of the scale at point 25 they are paid €65,513, this is without any post of responsibility included which most people have presently when they are at the top of the scale. A person post 2011 would be on €61052 at the top of the scale a drop of €4461 and a person post Feb 2012 would be on €59940 a drop of €5573. This is also with the increased chance that they will no longer be posts of responsibility for the majority of a persons teaching career which also has implications for some of the newer teachers as their pension will be based on career average rather than the last 3 years of teaching. It is incredible that our unions have sat back and let this happen. I know they did get some gains as part of Haddington road but the previous salary scale was crazy, post 2012 entrants would have been €12,090 less than current teachers at the top on that salary scale. Our union really has allowed new entrants to be walked over and doesn't seem to be doing much to highlight their cause.

2011abc

Youre REALLY gonna hit the roof when you see what theyve let happen to sick leave entitlements so ...Anyway Im out -Not a cent more of my pay will fund that shambles in Fishamble St...In other news we're being made fools of by Irish Water , CRC , etc etc etc ...We've allowed ourselves be walked over for 800 years + . I'll be at meeting about starting a new union next Saturday in Gresham , will you?

drvantramp

...gave people an honours PGDE and honours degree.

These have also been taken away.

No one shouted stop and that is why practically no one will remain in a union that fails to treat their own members equally and repeatedly fails to protect them.

seavill

There are no posts of responsibility for people that started teaching long before 2012. Don't be fooled there.

Ive been teaching 7 years and havn't a hope of every having a post so that one reaches a lot more people that just recent graduates.

rainbowtrout

ccazza wrote: »

I have only just sat down and looked properly at the pay of new entrants - post 2011 and post Feb 2012. I just looked at the very top of the scale for comparison purposes and gave people an honours PGDE and honours degree. Presently when teachers hit the top of the scale at point 25 they are paid €65,513, this is without any post of responsibility included which most people have presently when they are at the top of the scale. A person post 2011 would be on €61052 at the top of the scale a drop of €4461 and a person post Feb 2012 would be on €59940 a drop of €5573. This is also with the increased chance that they will no longer be posts of responsibility for the majority of a persons teaching career which also has implications for some of the newer teachers as their pension will be based on career average rather than the last 3 years of teaching. It is incredible that our unions have sat back and let this happen. I know they did get some gains as part of Haddington road but the previous salary scale was crazy, post 2012 entrants would have been €12,090 less than current teachers at the top on that salary scale. Our union really has allowed new entrants to be walked over and doesn't seem to be doing much to highlight their cause.

And therein lies one of the biggest problems in teaching. So many teachers who will not read the documentation made available to them on Croke Park/Haddington Road/budget cuts and then do not vote on them because they don't know what they are about or vote on them not really knowing what they are voting for or pass no heed on pay cuts in the budget.

I don't really mean this to be a personal attack on you ccazza but you have posted before that you are the school steward in your school? How can you have not known the above? The cuts were brought in a few years ago.

Unions may not have fought hard enough when they were at the table, but plenty of teachers did not come out and vote either when they were balloted

ccazza

I am school steward in our school. We have a staff who mostly voted "No" to the recent Haddington road agreements. We do try to stay informed. I have to say I have been aware of the cuts to new entrants but never realised the extent to which they have been affected mostly maybe due to the fact we have had no new staff in our school over the last few years. That doesn't excuse me in any way but I am only school steward this year since September so I suppose I now feel it is my duty to look at this type of thing and raise the issue even more so at union meetings. However I feel the real problem is with the majority of pre 2011 teachers who are just happy that their wage hasn't been affected in this appalling way. I actually don't feel it very fair that you did personally attack me rainbow trout as you know nothing about me or how hard I work in our school to get the message out about how teachers are being affected by all these changes.

rainbowtrout

ccazza wrote: »

I am school steward in our school. We have a staff who voted "No" to the recent Haddington road agreements though we were also one of the schools who got a letter saying one of our staff would be made redundant rather than redeployed if we didn't accept the agreement. This letter was sent by our beloved union on figures they received from the dept of education which were based on the previous school years numbers. We are in fact in quota and not at risk. I have to say I have been aware of the cuts to new entrants but never realised the extent to which they have been affected mostly maybe due to the fact we have had no new staff in our school over the last few years. That doesn't excuse me in any way but I am only school steward this year since September so I suppose I now feel it is my duty to look at this type of thing and raise the issue even more so at union meetings. However I feel the real problem is with the majority of pre 2011 teachers who are just happy that their wage hasn't been affected in this appalling way. I actually don't feel it very fair that you did personally attack me rainbow trout as you know nothing about me or how hard I work in our school to get the message out about how teachers are being affected by all these changes.

I know that I know nothing about your situation but you said yourself that you now feel it's your duty to know this stuff because you are school steward. I'm presuming that you are a pre 2011 teacher yourself.

Not having new staff is a bit of a cop out. I'm pre 2011, we have new staff but I don't ask them about their wages. I can and did however go onto the TUI/ASTI website and in 3 seconds see the difference in the pay scales which were imposed 3 years ago. Did any of the teachers in your staffroom care that other teachers in the profession took the cut 3 years ago because it didn't affect any of them, and are they only taking an interest now in HRA because it now affects them?

The point I'm trying to make is what were you thinking pre 2011 when these paycuts came in - 'sure the paycut doesn't affect anyone in our school, it can't be that bad' because that's what it sounds like to be honest, and it's no reflection on how hard you work or your work as a steward now.

We have been vilified in the media over the last few years it's pretty hard not to know the basic details of the cuts in teaching without living under a rock, didn't anyone in your staffroom pick up that '10% paycut' or 'loss of qualifications allowances to new entrants' adds up to a fairly hefty chunk of money and join the dots at some point and think 'this is not fair'???

In terms of it not being personal, I believe your post is indicative of many teachers and schools around the country, not just you and yours. Boards in my opinion is not indicative of teachers as a whole as people come on here outside of school hours to discuss what is going on in teaching and that's not the majority of teachers.

seavill

ccazza wrote: »

I am school steward in our school. We have a staff who voted "No" to the recent Haddington road agreements though we were also one of the schools who got a letter saying one of our staff would be made redundant rather than redeployed if we didn't accept the agreement. This letter was sent by our beloved union on figures they received from the dept of education which were based on the previous school years numbers. We are in fact in quota and not at risk. I have to say I have been aware of the cuts to new entrants but never realised the extent to which they have been affected mostly maybe due to the fact we have had no new staff in our school over the last few years. That doesn't excuse me in any way but I am only school steward this year since September so I suppose I now feel it is my duty to look at this type of thing and raise the issue even more so at union meetings. However I feel the real problem is with the majority of pre 2011 teachers who are just happy that their wage hasn't been affected in this appalling way. I actually don't feel it very fair that you did personally attack me rainbow trout as you know nothing about me or how hard I work in our school to get the message out about how teachers are being affected by all these changes.

Are you kidding me? What a disrespectful sweeping statement. Some of us pre 2011 are well aware of the cuts other people have suffered including the ones we have suffered oursleves. I am not a school steward to be honest I am barely still in the union but I am well aware of everything that has happened to me and my older and younger colleagues regardless of when they started

ccazza

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And therein lies one of the biggest problems in teaching. So many teachers who will not read the documentation made available to them on Croke Park/Haddington Road/budget cuts and then do not vote on them because they don't know what they are about or vote on them not really knowing what they are voting for or pass no heed on pay cuts in the budget.

However you implied I had not read Haddington road/Croke Park etc when infact the opposite is the truth. I have read every bit of the agreement which affects teachers. I have also informed staff of the relevant parts so our staff were well informed and were able to reach their own informed decision on how to vote in the ballot. I admit I was on maternity leave when the other pay cuts happened and was probably living in my own happy bubble at the time but at least I am now trying to update myself with the situation and will be questioning all of this at out local union meeting. I really find the tone of your writing quite insulting and feel it is unwarranted.

ccazza

seavill wrote: »

Are you kidding me? What a disrespectful sweeping statement. Some of us pre 2011 are well aware of the cuts other people have suffered including the ones we have suffered oursleves. I am not a school steward to be honest I am barely still in the union but I am well aware of everything that has happened to me and my older and younger colleagues regardless of when they started

I did say the majority and will stand over this statement.

seavill

And what way can you back up that statement? Again a massivly sweeping generalisation you are making there. Maybe you and your colleagues in your school, and I will quote you, are/were living in "your own happy little bubble" for the last number of years and didn't give a toss about others because it didn't effect you but I can safely say in the last 7 years I have worked in 5 schools and in every one of those 5 schools "the majority" of those teachers were very interested and concerned for me and other young teachers. I always felt protected within those schools from any management pressue as I always felt I had the backup of my colleagues whether they be pre/post 2012/2011 or 30 years in the job.

You can stand over whatever you want but it is still a disgraceful sweeping generalistaion that needs to be qualified by adding in the words "in my school" because it certainly isn't the experience I have had of the "majority of pre 2011" teachers and without any facts to back it up I feel you are totally out of line saying it

rainbowtrout

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And therein lies one of the biggest problems in teaching. So many teachers who will not read the documentation made available to them on Croke Park/Haddington Road/budget cuts and then do not vote on them because they don't know what they are about or vote on them not really knowing what they are voting for or pass no heed on pay cuts in the budget.

ccazza wrote: »

However you applied I had not read Haddington road/Croke Park etc when infact the opposite is the truth. I have read every bit of the agreement which affects teachers. I have also informed staff of the relevant parts so our staff were well informed and were able to reach their own informed decision on how to vote in the ballot. I admit I was on maternity leave when the other pay cuts happened and was probably living in my own happy bubble at the time but at least I am now trying to update myself with the situation and will be questioning all of this at out local union meeting. I really find the tone of your writing quite insulting and feel it is unwarranted.

No I said what I highlighted above. As I said, it was not about you personally, but your OP is indicative of what is going on in a lot of staff rooms. Or rather not going on.

It needed to be questioned 3 years ago. I'm not being insulting, just calling it like it is.

For the record there are plenty of people who did not vote in my staff room and weren't clear what HRA was about even after the ballot was counted. I'm sure there are older teachers in my staff room who are unaware of how much the pay cut has cost teachers. I have done my stint as union rep, but people still come and ask me questions about contracts, CIDs, CP, HRA because they know I keep myself informed.

ccazza

seavill wrote: »

And what way can you back up that statement? Again a massivly sweeping generalisation you are making there. Maybe you and your colleagues in your school, and I will quote you, are/were living in "your own happy little bubble" for the last number of years and didn't give a toss about others because it didn't effect you but I can safely say in the last 7 years I have worked in 5 schools and in every one of those 5 schools "the majority" of those teachers were very interested and concerned for me and other young teachers. I always felt protected within those schools from any management pressue as I always felt I had the backup of my colleagues whether they be pre/post 2012/2011 or 30 years in the job.

You can stand over whatever you want but it is still a disgraceful sweeping generalistaion that needs to be qualified by adding in the words "in my school" because it certainly isn't the experience I have had of the "majority of pre 2011" teachers and without any facts to back it up I feel you are totally out of line saying it

I actually can't say the word my school in it as I would say its not true for my school either. Staff there are very concerned about the treatment of new entrants. I suppose what I'm really basing my statement on is the fact that the unions let it happen and while people did give out nothing much has been done about it. I'd say if you came to our school you'd feel exactly the same as you said you felt in the last 5 schools you were in -supported but I think at this stage we need more than that -we need a union truly fighting to get the pay of all teachers to be back on the pre 2011 salary scale, back on the one scale where everyone is paid the same for the work they are doing. My "bubble" was to do with my new baby not to do with the situation of new entrants.

ccazza

rainbowtrout wrote: »

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And therein lies one of the biggest problems in teaching. So many teachers who will not read the documentation made available to them on Croke Park/Haddington Road/budget cuts and then do not vote on them because they don't know what they are about or vote on them not really knowing what they are voting for or pass no heed on pay cuts in the budget.


No I said what I highlighted above. As I said, it was not about you personally, but your OP is indicative of what is going on in a lot of staff rooms. Or rather not going on.

It needed to be questioned 3 years ago. I'm not being insulting, just calling it like it is.

For the record there are plenty of people who did not vote in my staff room and weren't clear what HRA was about even after the ballot was counted. I'm sure there are older teachers in my staff room who are unaware of how much the pay cut has cost teachers. I have done my stint as union rep, but people still come and ask me questions about contracts, CIDs, CP, HRA because they know I keep myself informed.

You are right -it did need to be questioned 3 years ago but it does still need to be questioned now. I know we are fighting for the same cause at this stage, it's to try and get a union who will also fight for these new entrants and not with token gestures either.

seavill

ccazza wrote: »

I actually can't say the word my school in it as I would say its not true for my school either. Staff there are very concerned about the treatment of new entrants. I suppose what I'm really basing my statement on is the fact that the unions let it happen and while people did give out nothing much has been done about it. I'd say if you came to our school you'd feel exactly the same as you said you felt in the last 5 schools you were in -supported but I think at this stage we need more than that -we need a union truly fighting to get the pay of all teachers to be back on the pre 2011 salary scale, back on the one scale where everyone is paid the same for the work they are doing. My "bubble" was to do with my new baby not to do with the situation of new entrants.

I know the bubble was about your child I was just using your phrase.

So you say in you are not talking about the teachers in your school when you say the majority don't care and you agree that in the 5 schools I mention its the same yet you still "stand over" your statement that "the majority" don't care. Sense in that statement?

What the unions have done to teachers is different to what teachers have done to teachers. Again when you were away in your bubble you may have missed that teachers REJECTED agreements over and over and over yet were still made vote again until the correct answer was achieved. These results were "negotiated" by our union top brass for us.

I think you need to be careful in who you are blaming for all of this. Pitting one lot of teachers off against the other is a dangerous game to play.

ccazza

I'm not trying to pit teachers against each other. I suppose I'm trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense- 3 different pay scales being paid within the same profession for doing the same job. I am well aware we have been asked to vote again and again until we voted the way the government wanted us to vote. I was at a meeting where Pat King basically told us we mad to have rejected Haddington road, what made us different from any other union who had accepted it. I know it is the leadership in the union who are truly at fault here and they really need to do something to try to get 1 scale for all back.

solerina

ccazza wrote: »

I'm not trying to pit teachers against each other. I suppose I'm trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense- 3 different pay scales being paid within the same profession for doing the same job. I am well aware we have been asked to vote again and again until we voted the way the government wanted us to vote. I was at a meeting where Pat King basically told us we mad to have rejected Haddington road, what made us different from any other union who had accepted it. I know it is the leadership in the union who are truly at fault here and they really need to do something to try to get 1 scale for all back.

Unfortunately this is the case and I for one cant see it changing any time soon, I am well pre 2011 and so not affected however like the other people who replied I was well aware that this happened and everything else that has happened over the past few years to attempt to destroy teaching as a profession...frankly I agree with the others, how did you only discover this now (baby not really an excuse in my opinion).

Peter Flynt

ccazza wrote: »

I know they did get some gains as part of Haddington road but

There were no gains in Haddington Road. None whatsoever.

It was all give on our part and all take on the part of the DES.

shenanagans

I have a feeling that new entrants will get their own back in years to come. The post 2011 group are the minority now but that will change in years to come. Teachers voted will little or no concern for new entrants.

rainbowtrout

shenanagans wrote: »

I have a feeling that new entrants will get their own back in years to come. The post 2011 group are the minority now but that will change in years to come. Teachers voted will little or no concern for new entrants.

I don't mean to be negative but how? All the new entrants are on far less pay and crap hours.

shenanagans

future votes in years to come I suppose.

evolving_doors

shenanagans wrote: »

I have a feeling that new entrants will get their own back in years to come.The post 2011 group are the minority now but that will change in years to come. Teachers voted will little or no concern for new entrants.

Hmmmmm..I'm not too sure about this...maybe in relative terms the new entrants (say the 2010-2013 cohort) might be the largest cohort of new entrants in yonks. If you consider the mass exodus of retirements, and the practice of splitting a permanent post into 2 or 3 'jobs' then it might be hard to discern.

How do you mean getting their own back exactly?

solerina

In think its wrong to think in terms of 'getting their own back' that is to imply that the teachers ahead of them maybe in CID/Perm positions let them down...
Which actually isn't the case, many of my group of teachers were alarmed about the changes to new entrants pay but I for one wasn't aware of any method to stop this happening...the unions should have stuck up for new entrants not individual teachers.

shenanagans

The unions didn't stick up for new entrants, just look at the cuts to starting pay. In fairness new entrants are at the bottom of the pay scale so they are the most vulnerable in my opinion.

seavill

shenanagans wrote: »

The unions didn't stick up for new entrants, just look at the cuts to starting pay. In fairness new entrants are at the bottom of the pay scale so they are the most vulnerable in my opinion.

And how are these teacehrs going to "get their own back"?

drvantramp

seavill wrote: »

And how are these teacehrs going to "get their own back"?

Don't be surprised if you see small retirement dinners and v small presents!

seavill

drvantramp wrote: »

Don't be surprised if you see small retirement dinners and v small presents!

Not being disrecptectful here but what difference in the world is that going to make to the teaching profession and the union issue? Absolutely none.

Firstly with large retirement lump sums a small donation from colleagues is unnecessary and makes little difference, it is just a gesture. Small retirement dinners is a silly argument to make. So in 40 years time no post 2011 teachers I work with will come to my retirement dinner because other teachers (Not me) may have voted for something in 2010 or 2011 or 2012. People don't attend dinners becuase of the way someone voted 40 years ago

drvantramp

seavill wrote: »

Not being disrecptectful here but what difference in the world is that going to make to the teaching profession and the union issue? Absolutely none.

Firstly with large retirement lump sums a small donation from colleagues is unnecessary and makes little difference, it is just a gesture. Small retirement dinners is a silly argument to make. So in 40 years time no post 2011 teachers I work with will come to my retirement dinner because other teachers (Not me) may have voted for something in 2010 or 2011 or 2012. People don't attend dinners becuase of the way someone voted 40 years ago

1. I didn't suggest it would make any difference!
2. Someone asked about people getting their own back - you are correct - they can't .

I'm not talking about 40 years but now. I'm merely suggesting some people who didn't seem to give a rats arse about others pay may be surprised when others don't care about them leaving, that is all.

I have already asked the union about this issue, they have washed their hands. No one cares. They have now created an apartheid system.

The Asti as we know it is dead.



"Not being disrespectful "but then you call a comment silly.....

rainbowtrout

drvantramp wrote: »

1. I didn't suggest it would make any difference!
2. Someone asked about people getting their own back - you are correct - they can't .

I'm not talking about 40 years but now. I'm merely suggesting some people who didn't seem to give a rats arse about others pay may be surprised when others don't care about them leaving, that is all.

I have already asked the union about this issue, they have washed their hands. No one cares. They have now created an apartheid system.

The Asti as we know it is dead.



"Not being disrespectful "but then you call a comment silly.....

But a comment like that is silly. No one decides whether or not to go to a retirement or contribute to a retirement gift based on how a ballot went or what the unions did or didn't do.

drvantramp

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But a comment like that is silly. No one decides whether or not to go to a retirement or contribute to a retirement gift based on how a ballot went or what the unions did or didn't do.

Times have changed - they just might from now on seeing as people are paid v differently. Silly comment if you wish.

Peter Flynt

Why would anyone enter the profession on this new appalling pay scale?

evolving_doors

drvantramp wrote: »

Times have changed - they just might from now on seeing as people are paid v differently. Silly comment if you wish.

Jeez that's real sweet... You wouldn't go to a colleagues retirement function because of how they might have voted a few decades ago!
Before I would have thought that recent retirees were creaming it. The more I look around the more I see retirees using that hard earned pension to keep their kids from going under financially. Also a good few didn't qualify for the full whack for various reasons. A lesson in life.... you might think that others have it nice but after scratching the surface they might be struggling and keeping others ticking over at the same time. The grass is always greaner over the fence but you don't improve your own lawn by digging up theirs.

rainbowtrout

drvantramp wrote: »

Times have changed - they just might from now on seeing as people are paid v differently. Silly comment if you wish.

Attendance/non attendance at a retirement is not going to change a post 2011 teacher's working conditions and how teachers relate to each other in staff room on a day to day basis.

drvantramp

ok for absolute clarity -
(again) I never said or implied that any of this would change any teachers conditions.

I mentioned the present and not decades later.

I did not say this behaviour was to be condoned or otherwise, I simply suggested it was a possibility as we are in a new phase.

This may be silly in your opinion (moderation?!) but at least READ the comment properly.

No one I noticed picked up on the ASTI doing sfa about this which was raised earlier and I also addressed.


Finally, this is a discussion forum, is it not?

seavill

drvantramp wrote: »

ok for absolute clarity -
(again) I never said or implied that any of this would change any teachers conditions.

I mentioned the present and not decades later.

I did not say this behaviour was to be condoned or otherwise, I simply suggested it was a possibility as we are in a new phase.

This may be silly in your opinion (moderation?!) but at least READ the comment properly.

No one I noticed picked up on the ASTI doing sfa about this which was raised earlier and I also addressed.


Finally, this is a discussion forum, is it not?

What's the comment about moderation?

Yes it is a discussion forum. I offered my opinion on your comment and people have been discussing it since. I don't get what you are saying.

Someone passed a comment about people getting their own back. I asked waft that meant. We were discussing the issue

Miss Lockhart

seavill wrote: »

And how are these teacehrs going to "get their own back"?

In the future, when they outnumber those on the earlier payscale, I wouldn't be surprised if they vote to accept agreements that bring older members' pay in line with theirs, or vote to to accept agreements bringing older members' pensions in line with their career-average pensions. Or have no interest in implementing industrial action if such changes were forced through.

rainbowtrout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

In the future, when they outnumber those on the earlier payscale, I wouldn't be surprised if they vote to accept agreements that bring older members' pay in line with theirs, or vote to to accept agreements bringing older members' pensions in line with their career-average pensions. Or have no interest in implementing industrial action if such changes were forced through.

I don't think it's as easy to make changes to existing pensions, only changes to pensions being offered to new entrants. Those that exist within the system will get their pensions based on final salary and those entering the system from now on will have the career average defined pension.

Miss Lockhart

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't think it's as easy to make changes to existing pensions, only changes to pensions being offered to new entrants. Those that exist within the system will get their pensions based on final salary and those entering the system from now on will have the career average defined pension.

It's not easy but I wouldn't rule out what may become easier down the line. Only a year ago people were insisting they could only change our pay, not our terms and conditions, unilaterally. Then FEMPI happened. Who knows what may be to come.

gaeilgebeo

Mod Warning

Please refrain from commenting on moderation on-thread.

Use the report/PM function as necessary.

Geologyrocks

It's actually very possible that pensions could change for people on the older pension scheme. This happened in the UK 2 years ago. Any teacher under the age of 50 on a certain date was changed from 'half final pay pension' to career average. It's perfectly legal to do so but obliviously would be very unpopular.