Are we capable of self government at all given....

bgrove

Given the continuous stream of revelations,

Jonny Blaze

Capable yes..

Competent?

....

Not so much!

Phill Ewinn

Are you saying we shpuld do away with government ala Belgium did for a couple of years?
Yes. That would be nice!

Are we capable of using our votes collectively in a responsible manner?
No.

Stavros Murphy

€720,000. Mother of God wept. Given from charitable funds. "Won't happen again" they say. Ah Grand so, all is forgiven. Fcuk off.

Wacker The Attacker

no. we need to get daddy slapped

hmmm

It seems to me that no-one in government or at senior levels in the public services (or state owned companies) give a damn about spending taxpayers money. People work hard for their money, and our income taxes are huge, and the money is either wasted or lavished on (all levels of) employees salaries.

One little snippet from yesterday was the bonuses for Irish Water staff. They would be "based on Bord Gais" and would average 7,000 euros an employee. 7,000 euros. For doing your job. And clearly, this is regarded as normal in Bord Gais.

Is there anyone who will stand up for taxpayers and cry halt to this madness?

bgrove

aristotleirish wrote: »

no we are not and as far as i can see it goes back further then just a few "revelations" ever since the occupation by the British and indeed the founding of the state we have lacked a national strength. we accepted the partitioning of the north we were too sceard to get involved in ww2 we accepted the deference to the church to the point where they wee getting away with horrible misdeed. we accept and show corrupt politicians. i think that a countries soul can be be so damaged that we end up becoming apologists for corruption. the amount of horrors that were commited here by the British and we blandly accept the containing occupation of our island until the irish as a people grow up this corruption is going to continue. the whole thing is linked where a deferance and fear to the strongest in society continues. it is going to continue as long as people allow it to continue.

I was indeed thinking as far back as the dev nest feathering, I think we as a collective are disillusioned and seed few if any directions we can turn.

tayto lover

There was always a Golden Circle and it's getting more expensive to keep.

bgrove

Ironic....I'm as interested as the next man in feathering my nest maybe even at the expense of others, is it ingrained in us. But taking a huge cheque from collected monies.

bgrove

I. Don't know if any saw the Oliver stone documentary on Hugo Chavez etc. We need strength of leadership similar. Not an advocate of socialism/unions but there was something very admirable in what direction s American countries we aiming towards.

Irish Steve

I am going to put it more strongly.

Some of the issue preventing this country from properly governing itself is the legacy of the stranglehold that was held for years over the social life and educational structure of the country by the Catholic Church, with the concept of attend confessional, and everything will be grand, it's all dealt with, and shure, go and do your best.

What is unfortunately needed is a fundamental purge of many of the state and semi state institutions to get rid of the people at the top who see their position as (bluntly) their God Given right, because of the manner in which they were educated, and have progressed through their organisations over the years they have been there.

So far, no one has been truly accountable for their mistakes, or even for their misguided mis direction. Their gold plated pensions, and slush funds, and bonuses and all the other things that are so offensive to the hard working people that pay for these things are secure and safe and "legally protected". Would they be protected if we brought about a revolution that would do away with the republic, and bring in a new constitution and a new republic?

The people at CRC seem to have the view that the money they control is "their" money, so they see nothing wrong with using it to feather their own nests in order to continue to provide the "leadership" that they see as so essential to the success of "their" cause. In a nutshell, way too many people have lost track and vision of any form of morality that should be at the core of organisations such as the CRC.

It's wider. There are politicians in this country who have been found guilty of serious corruption, or other financial impropriety, but they are still allowed to retain their obscene pensions that only they get before retiring age, and still stand for public office, and they are still getting enough votes to keep their positions. Why is that, why do ordinary people believe that corrupt politicians should be allowed to continue to serve in the political arena? Is it maybe because those same people have a grudging respect for people that stick 2 fingers up to the system, on the basis that if they did it, so can the small man, and the politicians can't say much because they have been tarred with the same brush.

When CJH was first exposed, Joe Duffy on Gay Bryne's morning show did some interviews around Ballymun, and the consensus opinion was " he was a cute Hoor for getting away with it for as long as he did". Years later, the legal system was "persuaded" to drop court appearances because of "prostate cancer". Hmmmm, sorry, but that was a cop out to avoid the embarrassment of what would have had to come out in the courts, and to have allowed that way to avoid due process was an insult to every other man who has had to deal with the implications and effects of prostate cancer, and I do know what I am talking about.

There are plenty of others that have become notorious for their financial dealings, and the situation can perhaps be summed up very easily.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Too many people in this country have been put in the position where they have had absolute power over the organisation, or department for which they have had responsibility, and without a clear moral compass, they have done things that are now being exposed to public gaze.

Some of that loss of moral compass can absolutely and totally be laid at the door of the Catholic Church. The many and widespread issues that have been exposed in recent years, in terms of child sex abuse, institutional paedophilia, the manner in which reports of these issues were suppressed by the higher echelons of the organisation, the abuse that took place in places like the Magdalene Laundries, the abuse that took place in some of the schools, where brutal beatings were common place, all of these damning events at the core of the organisation that provided the moral compass for the country have served to destroy the inner values that were the strength of many. It's hardly surprising that there are very few people now entering holy orders, and increasing numbers who no longer slavishly attend mass in the way they used to.

Nothing has replaced those core values. The Politicians are only too happy to hide behind phrases like "contractual commitments" and many other such platitudes, the real situation is that they do not have the courage to behead the monster, and deal with the Golden Circle, because they are afraid of what the long term consequences of their doing so would be.

What none of them seem to recognise is that if they were to actually become more outspoken, and active in really dealing with the issues that are the elephant in the room, the rest of the country would be far more supportive of that action than the present situation where all too often, the people are left watching leaders that have promised much, but then fail to deliver, through fear.

Yes, I'm not impressed with what I see, a few very powerful people inside and outside of government have managed to almost destroy the spirit and soul of the country, and they have destroyed the hopes and dreams of at least 2 generations of people, maybe more, and done huge and lasting damage to the economy of this country.

Maybe it would have been better if the IMF, and European Central Bank, and the rest of the troika had been forced to come in and take over, perhaps they would not have had the hangups about dealing with the issues that our so called leaders have proved themselves to be splneless in dealing with.

Then again, it could still happen, there are so many things that have to go "right" for Ireland to recover from the present position, and there are no guarantees that many of those things are going to go right, if they don't, the troika WILL be back. Perhaps because they have no emotional baggage or false attachments to the past, they will be able to deal with the underlying issues that could damn Ireland for years to come.

And in passing, the present trade unions, and their leadership are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Some of the SIPTU bank accounts are only the thin edge of the wedge.

kneemos

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Are you saying we shpuld do away with government ala Belgium did for a couple of years?
Yes. That would be nice!

Are we capable of using our votes collectively in a responsible manner?
No.

Who do you suggest we vote for?

My name is URL

kneemos wrote: »

Who do you suggest we vote for?

It's not all just about the voting. The way political parties operate here is half the problem. The cronyism and the number of sleveens that are attracted to and given homes-for-life in those parties is FUBAR.

You wouldn't see such barefaced examples of it all in the UK without people being disgraced, kicked-out or even locked up.

jank

People (rightly) complain about this sort of behaviour but then when asked about their own entitlements and their rights to free money from the state many who are complaining now would be delighted to have increases in OAP's, free GP care for the under 5's no matter what your income, child allowance for all (no means testing), generous social welfare payments, Rent allowance payments for single mothers living with their partners (who will either be claiming or working), top ups for Social welfare for Christmas or the holy communion, PS workers and their increments and many many allowances, OAP's and their 'free' travel, Union members who care more about themsleves rather than the gerneral public...etc...

The issue is with us, the Irish people. Joe Duffy types will be going mad at these revelations yet in the same breath will bemoan the fact that their own bundle of free money they get from the state now is less than what it was a few years ago. They are really angry that this dude got more free money than himself/herself and will complain accordingly aka begrudge. We are not a serious people so things like this are bound to happen. The higher up the chain up power you go, the bigger the pay offs.

In other words these revelations are just peek into the microcosms of larger Irish society and it unhealthy relationship with the state that breeds a narcissistic and ugly sense of entitlement.

bgrove

Kneenos....there seems to be no one to turnto/vote for. Not just Uk, but to me it looks as if most other first world countries have a better political system. In that the electorate feel they can believe in them somewhat. Love him or hate him, I think CJH was the last leader who had real leadership qualities. I think down the line history might be kinder to him. I'm referring to the arms trial where he was actually willing to send troops/arms to Derry. We all know about he's other issues but this one act is very admirable to me. I think about him as a hugely conflicted character. Apparently he had no fear of maggie either( capital M left out purposely). I really think Ireland's relationship with England needs to be cultivated further, to me they seem to be putting in a lot of effort. I am WELL aware of what went on in the past and it should never be forgotten, but we do need them. This whole Europe thing is barely hanging on and we need to choose sides maybe. They also need us so I feel a symbiotic relationship could develop. They have no fear of the troika. Ends just feels like the kid in the classroom running around trying to avoid trouble be know towing down to all. I want a fearless f####r who I believe acts with Ireland's best interests at heart. They don't have to be well spoken or from a political dynasty. I wanted one of them to shout a few expletives and threaten that fella from the crc yesterday, M ary Lou got close but the shinners scare me regarding what would happen if they got in, kiss goodbye symbiotic relationship with the Brits. Well put Irish Steve.

renegademaster

hmmm wrote: »

It seems to me that no-one in government or at senior levels in the public services (or state owned companies) give a damn about spending taxpayers money. People work hard for their money, and our income taxes are huge, and the money is either wasted or lavished on (all levels of) employees salaries.

One little snippet from yesterday was the bonuses for Irish Water staff. They would be "based on Bord Gais" and would average 7,000 euros an employee. 7,000 euros. For doing your job. And clearly, this is regarded as normal in Bord Gais.

Is there anyone who will stand up for taxpayers and cry halt to this madness?

people need to wake up to the fact that until the elite see ordinary people have truly had enough it will continue forever. This idea that superman will come along is not the kind of message you want to be sending to the top. Get up and help yourself and those around you by speaking about it, maybe attend a protest and hopefully the majority will stop making excuses next time and surprise everyone by attending in huge numbers. God knows there are lots of us waiting for years for some simple solidarity!!

KyussBishop

We don't really self govern as much as we think, we pick from a limited selection of parties, where the dominant ones are all made up of pretty much the same class of corrupt politicians - there's only the illusion of choice.

We don't have real appreciable control over the running of our country, as things are - the 'elite' do, and often they don't even bother to have a pretence of this not being the case (as can be seen in any of the recent corruption scandals) - we won't be able to achieve control, unless people can bother their arse protesting and participating in creating/promoting protest movements, and new credible political parties (not the few fringe/loonbin parties that seem to crop up every now and then).

We are not all 'collectively' to blame for this, because it is a small elite who have disproportionate power (both publicly and privately), that are largely getting away with this - and the public are largely distracted/fooled away from the actions necessary, for doing something about this (like what I mention above), and are told to look to themselves, and fight among each other.

The elite is small though, they are a minority, and if you scare the living shít out of them with the right kinds of political action, and make them fear that they'll lose everything, and end up in prison - if you do that, you'll see positive change pretty fast.
People in power are supposed to fear the public, as that's part of what keeps them in check.


The public fall for the divisionary tactcs the elite use too - it's how those who have power, hold onto it. Everyone who encourages pitting one part of society against the other in a black/white (deliberately divisive) manner, instead of pitting society against the elite (those who wield the power and engage in the corruption - and yes, this is deliberately black/white/divisive - it should be; corrupt power deserves to be targeted) - those people (consciously or not) help to distract attention from the elite, and to protect them by dissipating the publics energy into other less important issues.

Usually they end up doing this, by lapping up one narrative or another, that the 'elite' (particularly those of them controlling media) pushes, to encourage people into holding beliefs/views, that pit society against itself.