SAS book

WayneScott

Could someone suggest a good book about the SAS which gives an objective look at it. Is the tv series Ultimate Force any way realistic?

goldie fish

WayneScott wrote: »

Could someone suggest a good book about the SAS which gives an objective look at it. Is the tv series Ultimate Force any way realistic?

Ultimate force is an excellent documentary about the SAS.
Bravo Two Zero is another excellent, and 100% factual account of life in the SAS.

Horse84

You know that this forum isn't just for people that have vast military knowledge or experience? My own is limited but I'm a history buff and have always had an interest and enjoy reading peoples thoughts and experiences on here, although I don't post here a lot.

That said, the OP just asked for a small bit of advice on where to get some information. Now I'm sure to most of ye his/her query might've sounded silly and that but it doesn't warrant a smart alec response imho. If you've no advice to give then just don't reply.
It's a feature of this forum that I'm kinda beginning to notice the more I read and it's more the tone of the responses from certain posters than the actual content of the response.

Anyway just my thoughts. As to the OP's question I don't have any suggestions except to say Ultimate force, I would imagine, is in no way indicative of life in the SAS.

tac foley

'Bravo Two Zero' has been outed as a frawk by somebody else who really WAS there.

'Ghost Force' by Ken O'Connor, is much better.

tac

iceage

goldie fish wrote: »

Ultimate force is an excellent documentary about the SAS.
Bravo Two Zero is another excellent, and 100% factual account of life in the SAS.

Lets not forget 'The one that got away' as well. It went on to win award after award. It's said that there were many "Them" who wanted to shake Mr Ryan's hand after that one.. or was it neck?

A book called freefall gave an interesting insight to life in the SAS.

WayneScott

Horse84 wrote: »

You know that this forum isn't just for people that have vast military knowledge or experience? My own is limited but I'm a history buff and have always had an interest and enjoy reading peoples thoughts and experiences on here, although I don't post here a lot.

That said, the OP just asked for a small bit of advice on where to get some information. Now I'm sure to most of ye his/her query might've sounded silly and that but it doesn't warrant a smart alec response imho. If you've no advice to give then just don't reply.
It's a feature of this forum that I'm kinda beginning to notice the more I read and it's more the tone of the responses from certain posters than the actual content of the response.

Anyway just my thoughts. As to the OP's question I don't have any suggestions except to say Ultimate force, I would imagine, is in no way indicative of life in the SAS.

Thanks for that but i do not see who was being smart? i s there a post removed?

Bravo Two Zero' has been outed as a frawk by somebody else who really WAS there.

I have seen that allegation about a couple of books, that is partly why i asked

r3nu4l

WayneScott wrote: »

Thanks for that but i do not see who was being smart? i s there a post removed?

I have seen that allegation about a couple of books, that is partly why i asked

The response below is the one that was being 'smart'. In fairness to the goldie fish, s/he may have been just trying to be funny in the hope that you would see through the obvious sarcasm in his post (i.e. calling Ultimate Force a documentary) and realise that he was joking. Either that or he was just been a smartarse

goldie fish wrote: »

Ultimate force is an excellent documentary about the SAS.
Bravo Two Zero is another excellent, and 100% factual account of life in the SAS.

To the question you asked. See this Amazon search, the results of which also include the aforementioned Ghost Force. The first four books listed are probably okay, although I've no actual experience of them.

WayneScott

r3nu4l wrote: »

The response below is the one that was being 'smart'. In fairness to the goldie fish, s/he may have been just trying to be funny in the hope that you would see through the obvious sarcasm in his post (i.e. calling Ultimate Force a documentary) and realise that he was joking. Either that or he was just been a smartarse



To the question you asked. See this Amazon search, the results of which also include the aforementioned Ghost Force. The first four books listed are probably okay, although I've no actual experience of them.

Ok well i thought maybe there was also a documentary called ultimate force i was about to search:P
I will look up the amazon search i probably have but some reviews of some books including McNabb's say they are more or less untrue.I will check out Ghost Force

WayneScott

iceage wrote: »

Lets not forget 'The one that got away' as well. It went on to win award after award. It's said that there were many "Them" who wanted to shake Mr Ryan's hand after that one.. or was it neck?

A book called freefall gave an interesting insight to life in the SAS.

i could not read that book with its writing style

r3nu4l

WayneScott wrote: »

Ok well i thought maybe there was also a documentary called ultimate force i was about to search:P
I will look up the amazon search i probably have but some reviews of some books including McNabb's say they are more or less untrue.I will check out Ghost Force

McNab's book isn't in the first four books on that search (at least, not if you search from the UK, where I am right now). Those first four books are historical texts about the SAS, not some trooper's 'look at me I'm such a big hero' account.

Wicklowrider

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1704548.Who_Dares_Wins

Geraghty served in the Paras and went on to be a respected military affairs journalist. I read this book about 30 years ago. Gives a reasonable and as far as I know authentic history without the "boys own" bits. As well as the units strengths and successes, this book covers its failures and weaknesses.

da_hambo

"Big Boys Rules"
Good book documenting the SAS against the IRA. Extra leave for confirmed kills?? All that kind of stuff.worth a read.

WayneScott

r3nu4l wrote: »

McNab's book isn't in the first four books on that search (at least, not if you search from the UK, where I am right now). Those first four books are historical texts about the SAS, not some trooper's 'look at me I'm such a big hero' account.

I know sorry for confusion. i was just saying McNab is not regarded as very reliable

WayneScott

Wicklowrider wrote: »

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1704548.Who_Dares_Wins

Geraghty served in the Paras and went on to be a respected military affairs journalist. I read this book about 30 years ago. Gives a reasonable and as far as I know authentic history without the "boys own" bits. As well as the units strengths and successes, this book covers its failures and weaknesses.

yes that is what i wanted an objective view

Lemming

r3nu4l wrote: »

McNab's book isn't in the first four books on that search (at least, not if you search from the UK, where I am right now). Those first four books are historical texts about the SAS, not some trooper's 'look at me I'm such a big hero' account.

I seem to recall reading a later book written by McNab that was less "look at me" and a bit more matter of factly about his experiences joining the army, and then the SAS. Can't recall the name of it now for the life of me, nor can I remember much in the way of details - I'm just left with an impression that it was a bit more of an honest look at his experiences before Bravo Two Zero.

Edit: I think it was "Immediate Action".

WayneScott

Lemming wrote: »

I seem to recall reading a later book written by McNab that was less "look at me" and a bit more matter of factly about his experiences joining the army, and then the SAS. Can't recall the name of it now for the life of me, nor can I remember much in the way of details - I'm just left with an impression that it was a bit more of an honest look at his experiences before Bravo Two Zero.

Edit: I think it was "Immediate Action".

Thanks i will have a look.

Balaclava1991

Two of the best books on the SAS are:

The Real Bravo Two Zero by Michael Asher which debunks the Andy McNab mythology and embellishment and finds out the equally heroic but less sensational truth.

Big Boys' Rules: The SAS and the Secret Struggle Against the IRA by Mark Urban describes the brutal un-glamorous reality of low intensity conflict.

Most books on the SAS are ghostwritten rubbish designed to encourage youngsters to join the military.

WayneScott

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Two of the best books on the SAS are:

The Real Bravo Two Zero by Michael Asher which debunks the Andy McNab mythology and embellishment and finds out the equally heroic but less sensational truth.

Big Boys' Rules: The SAS and the Secret Struggle Against the IRA by Mark Urban describes the brutal un-glamorous reality of low intensity conflict.

Most books on the SAS are ghostwritten rubbish designed to encourage youngsters to join the military.

and some knock asher 'he wasn't there' Hard to know who is telling the truth, thanks though

Most books on the SAS are ghostwritten rubbish designed to encourage youngsters to join the military

and parade their 'writers'egos

Balaclava1991

WayneScott wrote: »

and some knock asher 'he wasn't there' Hard to know who is telling the truth, thanks though

and parade their 'writers'egos

There is no way in hell that Andy McNab (Steve Mitchell) and his men armed with just their small arms and the ammo they were carrying could have killed 250+ Iraqis and destroyed several armored vehicles.

The contact scene depicted in the TV movie is actually very close to the account in Mitchell's book with the eight men shooting up the Iraqis deploying from their APCs and trucks and then moving in an destroying the vehicles at close range.

Eight men no matter how highly trained totally exposed to enemy fire from a much larger body of infantrymen with fire support from armored vehicles would not have survived a frontal assault.

They would have needed artillery and air support.

r3nu4l

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Two of the best books on the SAS are:

The Real Bravo Two Zero by Michael Asher which debunks the Andy McNab mythology and embellishment and finds out the equally heroic but less sensational truth.

WayneScott wrote: »

and some knock asher 'he wasn't there' Hard to know who is telling the truth, thanks though

and parade their 'writers'egos

Another problem I have with Asher is that about 25 years ago I read his book 'Shoot to Kill' about his time in 2 Paras, the RUC Special Patrol Group and latterly the 23 SAS (Reserves). It's an excellent book in many respects but as far as I recall there were a couple of incidents mentioned by Asher in the book where the outcome he gives in the book is vastly different to that of recorded fact. It's so long since I read it that I can't recall exactly what they were but even at the time I checked them out and he was wrong.

Another problem with that book is that when he writes about the MRF and the rumour at the time that they were an SAS cover squad, he states categorically that they were absolutely not SAS, just regular squaddies and as if to prove this he claims that the lowly 2 Para batallion carpenter was a member of the MRF. While Asher may have believed the long-denied fact that the MRF were made up of men picked from the SAS, it's also possible that he simply toed the line of the British Government when writing the book.

Either way, his credibility is shot to pieces (allow me the pun ) for me.

Balaclava1991

r3nu4l wrote: »

Another problem I have with Asher is that about 25 years ago I read his book 'Shoot to Kill' about his time in 2 Paras, the RUC Special Patrol Group and latterly the 23 SAS (Reserves). It's an excellent book in many respects but as far as I recall there were a couple of incidents mentioned by Asher in the book where the outcome he gives in the book is vastly different to that of recorded fact. It's so long since I read it that I can't recall exactly what they were but even at the time I checked them out and he was wrong.

Another problem with that book is that when he writes about the MRF and the rumour at the time that they were an SAS cover squad, he states categorically that they were absolutely not SAS, just regular squaddies and as if to prove this he claims that the lowly 2 Para batallion carpenter was a member of the MRF. While Asher may have believed the long-denied fact that the MRF were made up of men picked from the SAS, it's also possible that he simply toed the line of the British Government when writing the book.

Either way, his credibility is shot to pieces (allow me the pun ) for me.

None of this takes away from the ridiculous implausibility of a mere eight man patrol with only small arms and a limited supply of ammo talking on over 250+ Iraqis plus armored vehicles in a fire fight in the middle of the desert with no cover and inflicting mass casualties.

That just does not happen in the real world. In Rambo movies maybe but not in the real world.

Bravo Two Zero is clearly a complete embellishment of what really happened.

The real story is the patrol got dropped off by their chopper, were spotted by locals, decided to strike out for the Syria border and only one got away while the rest were captured, killed or died of exposure.

r3nu4l

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

None of this takes away from the ridiculous implausibility of a mere eight man patrol with only small arms and a limited supply of ammo talking on over 250+ Iraqis plus armored vehicles in a fire fight in the middle of the desert with no cover and inflicting mass casualties.

I never said it did. However, anyone relying on Asher for:
1) objectiveness
2) the whole truth
needs to bear in mind that his previous work leaves something to be desired.

All I said, 'Shoot to Kill' was an otherwise excellent book but the man's account is not without flaws. You can't take away from that either.

EDIT: Also, I do agree that Bravo Two Zero is an excellent war story to read but only if you take it as fiction based on an actual event.

WayneScott

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

None of this takes away from the ridiculous implausibility of a mere eight man patrol with only small arms and a limited supply of ammo talking on over 250+ Iraqis plus armored vehicles in a fire fight in the middle of the desert with no cover and inflicting mass casualties.

That just does not happen in the real world. In Rambo movies maybe but not in the real world.

Bravo Two Zero is clearly a complete embellishment of what really happened.

The real story is the patrol got dropped off by their chopper, were spotted by locals, decided to strike out for the Syria border and only one got away while the rest were captured, killed or died of exposure.

And McNab got a medal didn't he?
I think a lot, if not most, of so called factual books have plenty fictionalised embellishment

Wicklowrider

WayneScott wrote: »

And McNab got a medal didn't he?
I think a lot, if not most, of so called factual books have plenty fictionalised embellishment

I remember a book on the best sellers list back in the '90's that was exposed as having been written by a British Army Motor Mechanic, claiming he was SAS and had killed multiple people south of the border during the '80's. By the time it was exposed as a spoof he had pocketed a fair few bob.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Nemesis-File-Story-Execution/dp/185782167X

Balaclava1991

WayneScott wrote: »

And McNab got a medal didn't he?
I think a lot, if not most, of so called factual books have plenty fictionalised embellishment

Most factual books are NOT fictionalized embellishment. Most historical works have citations and references and footnotes which can be checked out.

WayneScott

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Most factual books are NOT fictionalized embellishment. Most historical works have citations and references and footnotes which can be checked out.

I do NOT mean historical works but "I was there" type accounts which are claimed an non fiction/fact such as this one

discus

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Most factual books are NOT fictionalized embellishment. Most historical works have citations and references and footnotes which can be checked out.

He included the caveat "So called factual books".