Stressful situation; to buy or not to buy?

angel eyes 2012

I would appreciate some advice. We went sale agreed on a house in South Dublin in October. The house is relatively small but it is perfect for us and most imporantly it is in a great location and we secured it at a good price. It is in generally excellent condition.

The surveyor's report brought up two major issues:
1. Next Door's eaves & gutter from their extension encroaches slightly on our side of the garden.
2. The attic has been converted which in itself is not a major issue, however to cater for the stairs up to the attic, the small bedroom has been reduced in size and can no longer be classed as a bedroom.
3. In effect the property has been converted into a 2 bedroom dwelling, when it was advertised as a 3 bed. You could fit a single bed in the small bedroom but it wiould be tight.

My solicitor has advised against buying this property as he believes we may have problems selling the property in the future. However, the property is in on a cul-de-sac and similar properties in the area have increased since October. We have been looking at houses for 2 years and we were out bid every time. My heart is broken with the process and I don't want to go through the whole bidding, mortgage process ever again. I am constantly worried about what to do. I understand the risk we are taking on but surely any house in a sought after location would retain value, even if we didn't make a profit. We were burnt by this market so many times, therefore I know that this house will be snapped up by someone else if we withdraw. Everyone thinks my Solicitor & Surveyor are being too pedantic.

Therefore our options are:
1. Withdraw and lose out on our location, which is my main priority. Face the possibility that we may have to go back to the bank for more funds. We are both over 34, I don't know if the bank will give us similar terms again.
2. Revert to the agent and request that the vendor accepts a lower offer to counteract the problems with the property.
3. Proceed as originally agreed and have a proper night's sleep again.

Any advise would be really appreciated or has anyone bought/sold a house with similar issues.
Thanks

Dortilolma

We were in a similar situation when we bought our house. Our solicitor didn't advise us not to buy it but wanted us to be very aware that if it turned out we had to sell it tomorrow we may not get the same price we paid because of these issues (also encroachment from neighbors and technically a 2 not 3 bed house).

In the end it comes down to how much you personally value the property.

Our decision in the end was to buy the house - primarily because we were buying a family home that we planned to be in for 10+ years and would be developing it in ways that would address the issues.

Orlaw3136

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

I would appreciate some advice. We went sale agreed on a house in South Dublin in October. The house is relatively small but it is perfect for us and most imporantly it is in a great location and we secured it at a good price. It is in generally excellent condition.

Thanks

Are you happy to live in a 2 bed house for your forseeable future ? Any circumstances (kids ?) which might impact on your need for space ? I'm assuming this house doesn't offer the potential to extend.

The concerns you outline would worry me in your shoes, if I was hoping to move in the future, unless I was happy that I would be able to do so even if I didn't get back what I paid for this house.

caew

Even though the surveyor has said the third bedroom cannot be classified as a bedroom, it is still the same size as when you viewed the property and you were happy with it then.
I can understand your concern that the house may not be worth as much as a two bed, however, you are paying the price you are happy to pay for it.
Value I would worry about if you are intending to buy for an investment and want to flip the house quickly.
If it ticks the boxes for you, and it sounds like it does, then I wouldn't worry about the 2 bed/3 bed scenario.

I don't know anything about the guttering enroaching on your property however.

Good luck with it.

Santa Cruz

You say that the house is perfect for you, in general excellent condition, great location and a good price. I think pre purchase nerves are hitting in.
If the neighbours gutters are protruding slightly into your air space that is not such a bad thing. As long as the gutters are cleaned regularly and do their job of taking rainwater away to the drains I wouldn't be too concerned about it.
As regards rooms I suppose you should consider whether or not there will be children on the scene and will extra space be needed. If not you have ample room with a guestroom, a small room which could be used for an office and attic conversion.

The market in South Dublin is such that the price can only go one way especially if coming from a competitive price that you are paying

angel eyes 2012

Orlaw3136 wrote: »

Are you happy to live in a 2 bed house for your forseeable future ? Any circumstances (kids ?) which might impact on your need for space ? I'm assuming this house doesn't offer the potential to extend.

The concerns you outline would worry me in your shoes, if I was hoping to move in the future, unless I was happy that I would be able to do so even if I didn't get back what I paid for this house.

Thanks for your response.
The converted attic fits a double bed and is a fine size for a bedroom but again it doesn't fit the criteria to be considered a habitable bedroom. Therefore, there are four rooms that can be used as bedrooms but technically we only have two legitimate bedrooms. There is a possiblity to extend, in fact next door's extension was designed to enable me to extend. We don't have any immediate plans to extend. I don't want a big house as heating a house is important to me. We don't have children yet but have plans to. As I alluded to, the "box" room would be suitable for a child.

Ray Palmer

To not take advice from a solicitor is always a bad idea.

Building standards are going to go up so what isn't a bedroom now certainly won't be a bed room later on and may have other enforcements.

For example you put a child in this room and there is a fire and the child dies you may be charged with neglect. It maybe extreme but this does happen.

Walk away

TOEJOE

Hi
With regard to the attic conversion if it has not met planning regulations (fire, structure etc for a habitable area ie bedroom) it is a storage area .What you could do is remove the attic stairs and you have the bedroom back. You will have to put a door and ladder to the attic perhaps in the small bedroom where the original stairs was this should not be costly. The overhang on neighbour’s extension is another issue, if it prevents you putting an extension onto your house (which I doubt it will do) it is a problem. The legal and survey people have to cover their backs when advising.
Best of luck in your search

The_Conductor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

To not take advice from a solicitor is always a bad idea.

Building standards are going to go up so what isn't a bedroom now certainly won't be a bed room later on and may have other enforcements.

For example you put a child in this room and there is a fire and the child dies you may be charged with neglect. It maybe extreme but this does happen.

Walk away

It may not take an inordinate amount of work to reclassify the attic conversion to building code, as a bedroom (aka the addition of velux windows, fire escape, and other modifications- which admittedly are not cheap- could very easily bring it up to scratch under current regs).

I'd be inclined to go ahead- with my eyes open. The OP is not planning on selling- they are suggesting its to be a family home and they intend to live there long term.

For their own peace of mind- if they got a contractor to view the attic conversion and make proposals as to how to bring it up to reg, it might encourage them to look at the positives, rather than any potential negatives.

There is a bit of work to make this an official 3 bedroom house (with an informal 4th bedroom)- and there is also the future possibility of a further extension.

OP- I'd be inclined to buy- as the 'issues' you've been given, would not normally be considered to be fundamental. I would get an opinion though on bringing the attic conversion up to Reg.

angel eyes 2012

The_Conductor wrote: »

It may not take an inordinate amount of work to reclassify the attic conversion to building code, as a bedroom (aka the addition of velux windows, fire escape, and other modifications- which admittedly are not cheap- could very easily bring it up to scratch under current regs).

I'd be inclined to go ahead- with my eyes open. The OP is not planning on selling- they are suggesting its to be a family home and they intend to live there long term.

For their own peace of mind- if they got a contractor to view the attic conversion and make proposals as to how to bring it up to reg, it might encourage them to look at the positives, rather than any potential negatives.

There is a bit of work to make this an official 3 bedroom house (with an informal 4th bedroom)- and there is also the future possibility of a further extension.

OP- I'd be inclined to buy- as the 'issues' you've been given, would not normally be considered to be fundamental. I would get an opinion though on bringing the attic conversion up to Reg.

Thanks for that Conductor.

The Vendors supplied a Certificate of Compliance from an Architect's firm in November. There is planning permission in place for the conversion. However, the certificate states that the conversion does not comply with fire regulations and should be used for incidential storage and not as a habitable room.

The_Conductor

The fact that the conversion is done, even if its not up to regs, is a plus- what I'd be asking is- what would it take to bring it up to regs- and planning along those lines.

Ok- technically its a 2 bed, with 2 other rooms that cannot be classified as bedrooms- but its an excellent location- you're not planning on selling it, and it ticks all your boxes.

You can procrastinate over the non-compliant conversion- but its not a negative- it simply needs a bit more work.

If I were in your position- I'd take the whole lot under advisement, and proceed, with my eyes open to the facts.

It really sounds like you're getting pre-purchase jitters, more than anything else.

Orlaw3136

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

The house is relatively small but it is perfect for us and most imporantly it is in a great location and we secured it at a good price. It is in generally excellent condition.

On balance and based on your replies, none of this has changed since you viewed the Property and went sale agreed.

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

My solicitor has advised against buying this property as he believes we may have problems selling the property in the future.

All due respect to your solicitor, and they seem to be very conscientious and diligent, but this advice is outside of the rubric of legals. If he/she told you there was a problem with title/planning compliance that would be an issue. However this advice is really of a more general character.

Your solicitor could well be an astute and accurate observer of likely developments in the property market but you are equally as entitled to form your own views in this regard, and moreoever you and your partner are the people who know your needs and intentions as regards selling the property in the future. If that's not part of the plan then you would place much less weight on this issue, if indeed it is an issue.

Philope

If all the other major building regs / issues are in order, and you know you're effectively buying a two bed (and therefore selling a two bed in the future), and the price is right for you, the issues don't seem all that major. Talk to your solictor again to be sure, just in case there is some other suspect issue lurking there, but one your solicitor can't directly accuse the seller / property of, so he's advising you not to buy by citing other grounds ? Maybe that's over thinking the issue, but buy in haste, repent at leisure and all that. Hope it all works out for you either way. If there really are no other issues than what you said, I'd say you'll be all right.

Bepolite

I'm looking around at the moment for a house. I'm fully aware that some rooms might not be 'bedrooms' but frankly that doesn't bother me so long as it's reflected in a slightly lower asking price.

Conversely I've seen properties which are technically 4 bed but one of them is down stairs so I don't count it.

If it's the right price I'd go with it. Especially if you're going to be there for a long time. Options are convert the bedroom back and sell it as a three bed, get the attic up to standard and sell it as three bed or sell it as a two bed and let the property speak for itself when people come to view it.

People focus too much on resale. That'f fine if you're moving in 2 - 5 years time. If you're going to be in there for decades who cares, we'll have seen numerous market cycles by them.

Philope

Bepolite wrote: »

Conversely I've seen properties which are technically 4 bed but one of them is down stairs so I don't count it.

Side point : a potential or actual down stairs bedroom is no bad thing, particularly in the event of a future disability or infirmity occurring.
Long term it's a prudent thing to have.

Bepolite

Philope wrote: »

Side point : a potential or actual down stairs bedroom is no bad thing, particularly in the event of a future disability or infirmity occurring.
Long term it's a prudent thing to have.

It's going to be my man cave! :P

delthedriver

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

I would appreciate some advice. We went sale agreed on a house in South Dublin in October. The house is relatively small but it is perfect for us and most imporantly it is in a great location and we secured it at a good price. It is in generally excellent condition.

The surveyor's report brought up two major issues:
1. Next Door's eaves & gutter from their extension encroaches slightly on our side of the garden.
2. The attic has been converted which in itself is not a major issue, however to cater for the stairs up to the attic, the small bedroom has been reduced in size and can no longer be classed as a bedroom.
3. In effect the property has been converted into a 2 bedroom dwelling, when it was advertised as a 3 bed. You could fit a single bed in the small bedroom but it wiould be tight.

My solicitor has advised against buying this property as he believes we may have problems selling the property in the future. However, the property is in on a cul-de-sac and similar properties in the area have increased since October. We have been looking at houses for 2 years and we were out bid every time. My heart is broken with the process and I don't want to go through the whole bidding, mortgage process ever again. I am constantly worried about what to do. I understand the risk we are taking on but surely any house in a sought after location would retain value, even if we didn't make a profit. We were burnt by this market so many times, therefore I know that this house will be snapped up by someone else if we withdraw. Everyone thinks my Solicitor & Surveyor are being too pedantic.

Therefore our options are:
1. Withdraw and lose out on our location, which is my main priority. Face the possibility that we may have to go back to the bank for more funds. We are both over 34, I don't know if the bank will give us similar terms again.
2. Revert to the agent and request that the vendor accepts a lower offer to counteract the problems with the property.
3. Proceed as originally agreed and have a proper night's sleep again.

Any advise would be really appreciated or has anyone bought/sold a house with similar issues.
Thanks

Location, location, location!

If you have secured a property you like in a good location, well get on with it!

You could look at another 100 properties and still come up with issues on each property.

If you are both happy with the property you have secured, get on with your lives and enjoy your new home.

Best wishes,

When is the house warmer?:)

josip

The attic stairs can nearly always be repositioned if it becomes an obstacle to selling in the future. I've seen very coiled ones above the main stairs and also ones that go up via the hotpress from the landing.
Was a bit short sighted of the original attic converter though not to consider this when doing the conversion.

Mrs OBumble

Philope wrote: »

Side point : a potential or actual down stairs bedroom is no bad thing, particularly in the event of a future disability or infirmity occurring.
Long term it's a prudent thing to have.

Agreed, But it needs to be accompanied by a downstairs bathroom that's large enough to have a wet-area shower.

With the aging population and all, stair-lift makers must see Ireland as a fantastic place

ixus

Walked away from similar recently.

You are over paying for a legally titled two bed house by the sound of if. You are buying the vendors problem.

The solicitor can not legally say that the house is of good title if the contracts specify it as a 3 or 4 bed house as it can not legally be sold as such. By your description anyway. Therefore the bank will not value it as a 3/4 bed and not give you a mortgage for such.

Anyone else here telling you otherwise is talking rubbish.

You have a fourth option in addition to the three you mentioned.

Buy it. Something happens where you need to sell it without having brought it up to proper standards. You can't sell it or have to sell it for a significantly reduced price.

People accepting below standard housing relative to value are contributing to this mania that is going on at the moment. It's shocking really. The mania of the Crowd.

Edit to say: I would go back to Vendor with findings and say the house can't be sold as a three bed with current problems. Request that they retro fit to make it legally compliant or reduce by cost of such and have contracts signed as a two bed.

Philope

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Agreed, But it needs to be accompanied by a downstairs bathroom that's large enough to have a wet-area shower.

Yes that's better in an ideal world, and in recent years building regs require it for new houses, but not every house has that luxury.
Most houses are a compromise in one way or another at the end of the day.

gaius c

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

I would appreciate some advice. We went sale agreed on a house in South Dublin in October. The house is relatively small but it is perfect for us and most imporantly it is in a great location and we secured it at a good price. It is in generally excellent condition.

The surveyor's report brought up two major issues:
1. Next Door's eaves & gutter from their extension encroaches slightly on our side of the garden.
2. The attic has been converted which in itself is not a major issue, however to cater for the stairs up to the attic, the small bedroom has been reduced in size and can no longer be classed as a bedroom.
3. In effect the property has been converted into a 2 bedroom dwelling, when it was advertised as a 3 bed. You could fit a single bed in the small bedroom but it wiould be tight.

My solicitor has advised against buying this property as he believes we may have problems selling the property in the future. However, the property is in on a cul-de-sac and similar properties in the area have increased since October. We have been looking at houses for 2 years and we were out bid every time. My heart is broken with the process and I don't want to go through the whole bidding, mortgage process ever again. I am constantly worried about what to do. I understand the risk we are taking on but surely any house in a sought after location would retain value, even if we didn't make a profit. We were burnt by this market so many times, therefore I know that this house will be snapped up by someone else if we withdraw. Everyone thinks my Solicitor & Surveyor are being too pedantic.

Therefore our options are:
1. Withdraw and lose out on our location, which is my main priority. Face the possibility that we may have to go back to the bank for more funds. We are both over 34, I don't know if the bank will give us similar terms again.
2. Revert to the agent and request that the vendor accepts a lower offer to counteract the problems with the property.
3. Proceed as originally agreed and have a proper night's sleep again.

Any advise would be really appreciated or has anyone bought/sold a house with similar issues.
Thanks

Emotion versus reason.
Which one is governing your wish to buy that house now?

runawaybishop

Both professionals you engaged have advised you to not purchase. That should make you rightly worried. Ask them under what conditions would they recommend you do purchase.

djimi

Id say buy with your eyes open (ie you know the issues that you might face), but only if you are buying it as a two bedroom house and it is priced accordlingly. If it is advertised as a three bedroom house and is being priced accordingly then Id be inclined to walk away; the bottom line is that you are not getting what you paid for.

Philope

gaius c wrote: »

Emotion versus reason.
Which one is governing your wish to buy that house now?

But if they are buying it as a two bed, and know they will be only be able to sell it as a two bed again, and the price is similar to two bed, and it passes the building regs as a two bed, and it passes structural inspection, and they like the house, as it seems to be in the OP, what's the issue ?

I would run this past the Solicitor again, in case he knows of another issue with the house but doesn't want to accuse the seller / property of it, and is just making it about the bedroom.

gaius c

Philope wrote: »

But if they are buying it as a two bed, and know they will be only be able to sell it as a two bed again, and the price is similar to two bed, and it passes the building regs as a two bed, and it passes structural inspection, and they like the house, as it seems to be in the OP, what's the issue ?

I would run this past the Solicitor again, in case he knows of another issue with the house but doesn't want to accuse the seller / property of it, and is just making it about the bedroom.

IF

Philope

gaius c wrote: »

IF

That's right IF, and the OP doesn't say, and it's up to them what price they pay.

handlemaster

The way I look upon it the day you buy is the same as the day you sell. What will your potential buyers be saying. I wounldnt buy but thats just me.

gaius c

Philope wrote: »

That's right IF, and the OP doesn't say, and it's up to them what price they pay.

But that's not the way your posts are worded. It comes across as "ah sure, what harm, go on and buy it anyway".

Philope

gaius c wrote: »

But that's not the way your posts are worded. It comes across as "ah sure, what harm, go on and buy it anyway".

Then you better try reading them again, no where have I said that. On several occasions I told them to get more advice from their solicitor. Their wording suggests their solicitor seems to be worried they are buying a two bed thinking it's a three bed, whereas they themselves seem to know it's a two bed and may be happy enough with that and the price, and only require a two bed. Or there may be another problem we're not being told about here, that's why they should talk to their solicitor again.

angel eyes 2012

Philope wrote: »

Then you better try reading them again, no where have I said that. On several occasions I told them to get more advice from their solicitor. Their wording suggests their solicitor seems to be worried they are buying a two bed thinking it's a three bed, whereas they themselves seem to know it's a two bed and may be happy enough with that and the price, and only require a two bed. Or there may be another problem we're not being told about here, that's why they should talk to their solicitor again.

I think the actual attic conversion is more a cosmetic matter (perhaps I am being naive) but is is a modern house. We could remove the stairs, up to the attic conversion and move the partition wall back to its orginal position, if we intended to sell the house as a three bed. If you read my OP , the other issue is "eaves-gate", as we call it. This we have no control over. From a nuisance or asthetic point of view you wouldn't notice it at all but our Solictor is obsessed with it.

Emotion versus reason? I think its impossible to disregard emotion completely when you are buying your first home. I know I'll be very emotional if I end up being completely priced out of our location and pushed out to areas of less demand. If we have children, the house is less than 10 minutes walk from shops, primary & secondary schools and 25 mins drive to our workplaces.

Thanks for all the input. However, I am getting conflicting advice which is confusing me even more!

Philope

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

I think the actual attic conversion is more a cosmetic matter (perhaps I am being naive) but is is a modern house. We could remove the stairs, up to the attic conversion and move the partition wall back to its orginal position, if we intended to sell the house as a three bed. If you read my OP , the other issue is "eaves-gate", as we call it. This we have no conrol over. From a nuisance or asthetic point of view you wouldn't notice it at all but our Solictor is obsessed with it.

Emotion versus reason? I think its impossible to disregard emotion completely when you are buying your first home. I know I'll be very emotional if I end up being completely priced out of our location and pushed out to areas of less demand. If we have children, the house is less than 10 minutes walk from shops, primary & secondary schools and 25 mins drive to our workplaces.

Thanks for all the input. However, I am getting conflicting advice which is confusing me even more!

I would talk to your surveyor again about the attic conversion issue, he will confirm your thinking on that one, or give you more advice.

As for "eves gate" , your solicitor might, from experience, be able to foresee a likely future problem you can't at the minute. Ask him to explain what could happen. From a practical point of view, if their gutters block and they don't/refuse to clean them, you could have water spilling over and damaging your property/wall and causing endless damp issues, and it would be very hard to stop. Again talk to the surveyor.

Worse than that, perhaps what the solicitor sees is undisputed occupation of the space below the eves, and therefore the neighbours could in theory claim / block that on you at a later date, .e.g it may already be a narrow entrance / path to the back of the house. Again I would talk to you solicitor / surveyor again. The neighbours might be grand now, but remember next door can change hands as well at any time.

Sometimes, as much as you might like it, a house may not be meant for you, and it's just meant to be, that that you don't buy it. Problems are a lot worse when you end up OWNing them.

On the other hand, the seller might be able to sort out / clarify the issues before you buy to your solicitor and surveyor's satisfaction.

But if your solicitor still advises you not to buy . . . walk away. The right house will come along sooner or later.

Good luck whatever happens.

Glenbhoy

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

1. Withdraw and lose out on our location, which is my main priority. Face the possibility that we may have to go back to the bank for more funds. We are both over 34, I don't know if the bank will give us similar terms again.

Your slight increase in age will not make any difference to what the banks will give, they knew you were going to get older when you applied, they may not increase what they're willing to lend, but that won't be the reason.

For what it's worth, personally, I'd walk away, but I'd definitely consider asking the vendor to make the property compliant or reduce the cost by the amount required.

Btw, has the bank property valuation been cariied out and if so, was that sufficient for the bank to authorise drawdown?

angel eyes 2012

Glenbhoy wrote: »

Your slight increase in age will not make any difference to what the banks will give, they knew you were going to get older when you applied, they may not increase what they're willing to lend, but that won't be the reason.

For what it's worth, personally, I'd walk away, but I'd definitely consider asking the vendor to make the property compliant or reduce the cost by the amount required.

Btw, has the bank property valuation been cariied out and if so, was that sufficient for the bank to authorise drawdown?

Thanks for your response. The bank's valuation was indeed carried out. They actually valued the property at €5,000 more than what we paid, although I think this was an oversight on their part. They did not mention the 2 bed/3 bed issue. They excluded the attic conversion completely from their valuation as it is not strictly habitable space. They noted eaves-gate and stated that our Solicitor is to investigate this matter during searches to contract. The cheque is ready for us to drawdown.

runawaybishop

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Thanks for your response. The bank's valuation was indeed carried out. They actually valued the property at €5,000 more than what we paid, although I think this was an oversight on their part. They did not mention the 2 bed/3 bed issue. They excluded the attic conversion completely from their valuation as it is not strictly habitable space. They noted eaves-gate and stated that our Solicitor is to investigate this matter during searches to contract. The cheque is ready for us to drawdown.

The eaves protruding is a big deal really. It means in the future that site will have issues with any sort of extension or rebuild which will affect its sale value - unless its sold to someone who doesn't realise this The issue should be resolved before it becomes your problem.

The_Conductor

So- resolve eavesgate- and off you go.