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What is reasonable wear and tear?

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  • 15-01-2014 11:20am
    #1
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Do the prtb have a denfintion of what consituits reasonable wear and tear?

    I have a feeling I maybe in a battle to get my deposit back. The landlord is probably right in relation to a cracked limstome counter and some mould that spread in a spare bedroom. I never used the room other than to dry clothes and never noticed the mould get so bad. Landlord reckons I should have advised him on thr mould so he could have fixed it


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    #2
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,986 ✭✭✭conorhal


    godtabh wrote: »
    Do the prtb have a denfintion of what consituits reasonable wear and tear?

    I have a feeling I maybe in a battle to get my deposit back. The landlord is probably right in relation to a cracked limstome counter and some mould that spread in a spare bedroom. I never used the room other than to dry clothes and never noticed the mould get so bad. Landlord reckons I should have advised him on thr mould so he could have fixed it

    Well a crack in a stone counter can't possibly constitute wear and tear, how did that happen?
    Same for drying clothes indoors with no ventilation. If you have created a mould problem that has gotten out of control and requires repainting the room with anti-fungal paint then it is your responsibility.
    I'd suspect that you might have to kiss your deposit goodbye. Ensure that your landlord provides reciepts for the cost of repairing any damage however.


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    #3
    Eldarion
    Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭Eldarion


    I'd be leaning on the side of the landlord on this one also. Cracked stone counter is def not wear and tear. Letting a mould problem get out of hand I'd put on the tenants doorstep as well, you could argue for it to be the LL's responsibility to fix the problem yes but you didn't even make him aware of it so he could fix it.

    Think this is a fairly clean cut example of why deposits exist in the first place.


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    #4
    Ciaran_B
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭Ciaran_B


    Do you have a clothes drying facility in the property? Drier or washing line?


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    #5
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    Ciaran_B wrote: »
    Do you have a clothes drying facility in the property? Drier or washing line?

    they should do its a legal requirement for a LL to provide one or the other.

    Id have to agree with the LL on this neither of those are reasonable wear and tear.


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    #6
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    I dropped a glass container on the counter.

    I suppose I knew i'd lose some deposit but looks like it will be all off it. I also am.leaving early and lost keys to the flat. Hopefully my deposit cover it but don't think it will


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    #7
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    I had a washier dryer. Wasn't great


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    #8
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    The landlord must provide receipts/invoices to show the breakdown of all deductions. Im guessing the counter will put a serious dent in the deposit, but they must return what they cannot account for.


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    #9
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    djimi wrote: »
    The landlord must provide receipts/invoices to show the breakdown of all deductions. Im guessing the counter will put a serious dent in the deposit, but they must return what they cannot account for.

    This although I agree with Djimi Id imagine the counter wont be cheap to sort out, add in replacing locks if you lost keys (not actually sure if just cutting keys or changing the locks would be reasonable here to the PRTB id say the former though), you leaving early and potential lost rent as a result and fixing the mould.

    I wouldn't be expecting to see much if any deposit back TBH.


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    #10
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    A stone countertop costs about €1300 to get cut and fitted. Repainting a room , locks on top of that will likely mean the deposit is gone and the OP may owe more money. The time to replace the counter may mean vacancy which the tenant is also liable for.

    OP I would expect a bill not a refund of deposit


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    #11
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Crap.

    He is registered with the PRTB so I assume he has to go through them first wiht the bill?


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    #12
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    godtabh wrote: »
    Crap.

    He is registered with the PRTB so I assume he has to go through them first wiht the bill?

    Not necessarily. He produces the necessary paperwork to back up the deductions, and its up to you to either accept it or dispute it. No need for them to take a PRTB case for genuine reductions.


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    #13
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    A stone countertop costs about €1300 to get cut and fitted. Repainting a room , locks on top of that will likely mean the deposit is gone and the OP may owe more money. The time to replace the counter may mean vacancy which the tenant is also liable for.

    OP I would expect a bill not a refund of deposit

    Unfortunately what Ray has just said is accurate.
    We had an incident with a black granite worktop (and a Schwartz herb pot, of all things). Replacement of the black granite came to over 2k. There is a crowd on the quays in Dublin who bring in slabs of granite and cut it to order. We checked around- but very few places were even able to quote.


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    #14
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    godtabh wrote: »
    Crap.

    He is registered with the PRTB so I assume he has to go through them first wiht the bill?

    He only has to go through PRTB if you are not paying for the damage you caused. Why would you do that given you know you are responsible?


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    #15
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    i just thought thats the way it worked


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    #16
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    godtabh wrote: »
    The landlord is probably right in relation to a cracked limstome counter and some mould that spread in a spare bedroom. I never used the room other than to dry clothes and never noticed the mould get so bad. Landlord reckons I should have advised him on thr mould so he could have fixed it

    I'd hit your deposit for cost of making good the cracked counter and the cost of making good the bad mould in room where you dried clothes (I'd only look for 75% of the mold cost if no drier or garden exists). I'd get both done professionally, and send you the receipts with a cheque for the balance.

    So no, I don't believe either of these are wear and tear. If the counter is anything other than wood, it's expensive.

    If you were unpleasant and unreasonable about it (refused to pay, complained, etc) I would pleasantly tell you that I'd give you a reference for your next landlord no problem. And I would do exactly that.


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    #17
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    3DataModem wrote: »
    I'd hit your deposit for cost of making good the cracked counter and the cost of making good the bad mould in room where you dried clothes (I'd only look for 75% of the mold cost if no drier or garden exists). I'd get both done professionally, and send you the receipts with a cheque for the balance.

    So no, I don't believe either of these are wear and tear. If the counter is anything other than wood, it's several hundo to fix.

    If there is no garden and no drier then you can expect 0% of the mould costs. Tenants must be provided with somewhere to dry clothes.


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    #18
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    If there is no garden and no drier then you can expect 0% of the mould costs. Tenants must be provided with somewhere to dry clothes.

    Of course, you are bang on. With no place or method to dry clothes the mold is the LL's problem. If the contract stipulated inspections then the tenant can also claim it was the LL's duty to spot the problem. So 0%, no argument.

    In the OP's case I believe a w/d was provided, so the LL is probably covered to take most if not all.


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    #19
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Two wrongs dont make a right; even if the landlord has not provided a dryer, it doesnt mean that the tenant can damage the place by drying clothes inside and allowing mould to build up from improper ventilation. Drying the clothes in a room that was not ventilated caused the mould issue, and its the tenants responsibility to put that right.

    Do you think that if the heating is broken and the landlord is slow to fix it that it would be okay for the tenant to chop up the furniture and burn it in a barrel in the middle of the living room floo...?!!


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    #20
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    djimi wrote: »
    Two wrongs dont make a right; even if the landlord has not provided a dryer, it doesnt mean that the tenant can damage the place by drying clothes inside and allowing mould to build up from improper ventilation. Drying the clothes in a room that was not ventilated caused the mould issue, and its the tenants responsibility to put that right.

    Do you think that if the heating is broken and the landlord is slow to fix it that it would be okay for the tenant to chop up the furniture and burn it in a barrel in the middle of the living room floo...?!!

    Well, technically the tenant should have notified the LL and if it wasnt fixed worked out an alternative or replacement etc. In reality they are going to dry their clothes inside until this happens - no excuses for doing this longterm though.


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    #21
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Well, technically the tenant should have notified the LL and if it wasnt fixed worked out an alternative or replacement etc. In reality they are going to dry their clothes inside until this happens - no excuses for doing this longterm though.

    I have no problem with them drying their clothes inside. The problem arises from the fact that they damaged the property in doing so. Its perfectly possible to use a clothes horse or whatever and not cause mould issues. The OP however allowed the mould problem to develop through their negligence. It is a problem that was avoidable, hence the reason why they are liable to put it right.


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    #22
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    If there is no garden and no drier then you can expect 0% of the mould costs. Tenants must be provided with somewhere to dry clothes.

    The OP states they had a washer drier- but weren't happy with it- and decided to room dry the clothes in the other room, of their own volition (and this was the only purpose the room was used for- drying clothes.


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    #23
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    The OP states they had a washer drier- but weren't happy with it- and decided to room dry the clothes in the other room, of their own volition (and this was the only purpose the room was used for- drying clothes.

    Yup, i dont disagree that they are liable.


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