mother going into a retirnment home

mnmmurphy1

hi all.my mother is pushing on and one of the options for her is to go into a retirement home.i was discussing this with my friend the other day and he raised some points that i was unaware of.we have a family farm which is in my name.i rent it out. im her son.she still owns and lives in the family home (alone) and 1 field.my friend told me that if she still owns the house and field when she goes into the retirement home that the government would take it off her as payement for the retirement home.can anyone shed some light on this

Rho b

Go to your local Citizens Advice office and talk to them. They are very helpful and will tell you all the options that are available to your mam and family. However they will not advise you on what to do.
There is a section within boards.ie on such matters but I don't know what it is called. Maybe one of the Mods could direct you to it.

mayota

I think you have to sign up to the scheme. Otherwise you just pay the full cost.

Nekarsulm

Yet, she will be accessed as regarding her ability to pay. An auctioneer(friendly) will be required to value her property to satisfy the requirements of State aid.

delaval

Have you discussed this with your mother?

Rho b

delaval wrote: »

Have you discussed this with your mother?

I never even thought of that. I presume he/she has otherwise why would he/she be looking for advise

mnmmurphy1

Rho b wrote: »

Go to your local Citizens Advice office and talk to them. They are very helpful and will tell you all the options that are available to your mam and family. However they will not advise you on what to do.
There is a section within boards.ie on such matters but I don't know what it is called. Maybe one of the Mods could direct you to it.

i am going through that site now and 1 part says that she will be assed on her income and assets for the past 5 years.the other part says for the past 3 years.makes nno sence to me

donegal11

IF she owns it it'll be assessed as means against her and under fair deal take a 7% share each year shes in care and any transfers need to done 5 years before care being required is my understanding. As you rent the farm the whole farm will be assessed as means not just the one field thats not rented

mnmmurphy1

delaval wrote: »

Have you discussed this with your mother?

yea we discussed it alright and she was hinting to transferring the house to my name.to be honest i kind of did not want to talk about it cos it was hard for me to imagine her going into a retirnment home

J.O. Farmer

I think you're late to worry about that if you're planning on putting her in a home anytime soon. I think assets that she has held within the last few years before going into the home are taken into account to prevent people deliberately signing over assets to avoid a nursing home bill.
The nursing home can't sell your mothers home but whoever inherits it will have to pay the bill one way or another even if that means selling.
I recommend you get professional advice on it though.

mnmmurphy1

donegal11 wrote: »

IF she owns it it'll be assessed as means against her and under fair deal take a 7% share each year shes in care and any transfers need to done 5 years before care being required is my understanding

ill copy and paste 2 bits from the same page on the citizens website.see what you think.both giving two different years for assessing assests

---

The period during which the family home is tin to account in the means test is limited to three years.This limit also applies in some cases to farms and businsses

---

You are considered to have transferred assets if, in the
previous five years, you gave away any assets
(including cash assets) or sold any assets for less than
75% of their market value. This does not apply if the
transfer of assets was done as a result of a
maintenance claim by a child or other matrimonial
proceedings.

mnmmurphy1

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I think you're late to worry about that if you're planning on putting her in a home anytime soon. I think assets that she has held within the last few years before going into the home are taken into account to prevent people deliberately signing over assets to avoid a nursing home bill.
The nursing home can't sell your mothers home but whoever inherits it will have to pay the bill one way or another even if that means selling.
I recommend you get professional advice on it though.

thanks.we have no immediate plans to do anything.she in fighting fit yet.still driving away perfectly.we were thinkinh in the future

Mr McBoatface

If it was me and my parent where the the family home was worth less than 225,000 euro we would look at my parents "gifting" the property to me or my brothers without any tax implication - http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/capital_taxes/capital_acquisitions_tax.html

In this case I would assume as the Parents would then have no property it could not be assessed against them.

Get legal advice before going down that road to verify.....

mnmmurphy1

jobyrne30 wrote: »

If it was me and my parent where the the family home was worth less than 225,000 euro we would look at my parents "gifting" the property to me or my brothers without any tax implication - http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/capital_taxes/capital_acquisitions_tax.html

In this case I would assume as the Parents would then have no property it could not be assessed against them.

Get legal advice before going down that road to verify.....

yea i think i will have to contacting a solicitor tomorrow

donegal11

mnmmurphy wrote: »

ill copy and paste 2 bits from the same page on the citizens website.see what you think.both giving two different years for assessing assests

---

The period during which the family home is tin to account in the means test is limited to three years.This limit also applies in some cases to farms and businsses

---

You are considered to have transferred assets if, in the
previous five years, you gave away any assets
(including cash assets) or sold any assets for less than
75% of their market value. This does not apply if the
transfer of assets was done as a result of a
maintenance claim by a child or other matrimonial
proceedings.

3 years means they can only take 22.5% of the house (3 years worth of 7.5%) but in the a fair amount of cases nursing home residence don't make it 3 years.

5 years is the amount of time the assets need to be transferred before they don't count as means(i.e transfer house 2013 goes into care 2020 the house would no longer be classed as means.)

mnmmurphy1

donegal11 wrote: »

3 years means they can only take 22.5% of the house (3 years worth of 7.5%) but in the a fair amount of cases nursing home residence don't make it 3 years.

5 years is the amount of time the assets need to be transferred before they don't count as means(i.e transfer house 2013 goes into care 2020 the house would no longer be classed as means.)

that makes sense. thanks for the help

Kristopherus

OP, all the information you need is fully explained here: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/olderpeople/nhss/

donegal11

Before you transfer you'd need to think about complications like if you transfer the asset to someone who has spouse and they get divorced the house/farm might have to be sold for maintenance etc leaving your mum homeless(of course you could put terms in transfer). Also as your renting the farm your reducing your tax liability by paying rent and more then likely your mum isn't taxable saving money. And finally how would the family feel if some member got the farm while others got nothing(opening a can of worms) ?

longgonesilver

mnmmurphy wrote: »

thanks.we have no immediate plans to do anything.she in fighting fit yet.still driving away perfectly.we were thinkinh in the future

Hi good to see that you are planning ahead. This is your mothers decision it should be discussed while she still is able. If you have siblings they should possibly be involved or kept informed of what is happening so that there is no ill feeling afterwards. It is very hard to see one brother get everything but it is ultimately your mothers decision.

With a little support many older people can continue to live at home. This is supposed to be government policy but supports are being withdrawn rather than improved and vary according to the area you live in. Wearing a personal alarm connected to a call center gives great personal security especially in the event of a fall.

Small changes to the house such as ramps instead of steps to doors and grab rails by toilets and showers can help. Larger changes such as planning a bedroom and bathroom downstairs can also be done in advance.

Your mother as you have described her is possibly not eligible for the Fairdeal scheme. The first criteria is that it is medically necessary for her to live in a nursing home and this has to be certified by a doctor.

There are different types of homes. If your mother is still able to live alone and is driving etc then I am glad to see you calling it a retirement home. Your mother would possibly have to pay for this if she is not sick enough. Some exist, more like the American model where you move into a retirement village and progress through getting more care as you need it, but most homes in Ireland would be classed as nursing homes for more seriously ill patients.

Fairdeal is an excellent scheme, and is a great saving for your mother and yourself. As has been pointed out here if assets are transferred five or more years in advance they are not counted. So with good forward planning Nursing home care can be got for 80% of your mothers income, and the state pays the rest. This is excellent value as most nursing homes charge in excess of 1000 euro per week.

Any money you spend personally on your mothers medical care or adapting the house can be claimed against your income tax.

If your mother is as good as you describe and is willing and her health remains ok she could have many years at home, but keep a good eye on her, make sure she is eating properly and keeps her mind active.
Good luck

gally74

Best to get accessed for the fair deal, then make a decision on the offer they make, you can accept or decline the offer then, speak to someone in the nursing home, most people do go for the deal.

It is hard to work throughout the emotion of this.

Visit the nursing home a few times at different times to make sure your happy with the culture

Markcheese

Is it possible to place the house and field in a family trust ? Basically your mams home as long as she likes ,but doesn't have to be signed over to any individual family member,(hopefully limiting chance for family rows) . Also when your mam does decide to move to assisted accomadtion, if there's a rental possibility on the house that could go towards fair deal...

Bactidiaryl

She can transfer the house now with a lifetime interest and she may be more comfortable with that.

tabby aspreme

You could also look into joint ownership of the house which gives security to both sides, then when one person passes away the remaining person automatically has full ownership of the house .

Up until recently if an elderly person was living alone the HSE would provide a home help to prolong the time a person could live in there own home but there has been a change of policy with the "Fairdeal Scheme" where people are now been forced into nursing homes earlier which facilitates full occupancy of the said nursing homes many of which are owned by people in the medical profession , just one of the benefits of having a Businessman / Doctor as Minister for health.

Nekarsulm

One sure thing, you will have to fight hard to get home help, occupational therapists, any home modifications etc. for your Mother. You will have to fight hard for stuff like crutches or a wheelchair from the HSE. It can be hard to get stuff like sanitary pads, plastic gloves/aprons etc., get to know the dispensing people in your local hospital. (our local scrap yard get occasional truck load of crutches, invalid beds, steel lockers etc., cannot be reused/repaired in case some-one sues) Its a diminishing resource, and those in the system already are favoured. I had a nurse tell me "basically, we have to wait for someone to die, before we can accommodate your Mother" Nice.

donegal11

Markcheese wrote: »

Is it possible to place the house and field in a family trust ? Basically your mams home as long as she likes ,but doesn't have to be signed over to any individual family member,(hopefully limiting chance for family rows) . Also when your mam does decide to move to assisted accomadtion, if there's a rental possibility on the house that could go towards fair deal...

The taxman will want a bit of it then anyway with discretionary trust tax which would make more complicated and expensive then it's worth.