Who to believe?

Deliverance XXV

Hi all,

Just wondering which road I should go down. The car is a 2003 TDCI Ford Mondeo with a fresh NCT and service recently (Oil + all filters). Selling the car at the moment so this has placed a bit of a damper on everything.

Last week, I had issues every morning starting the car. I would try 4-5 times and eventually it would start. However, last Saturday it would not start with trying over six times until the battery got low. I jumped the car and it still would not start, so I rang breakdown assistance with my insurance company.

He came out, loaded the battery with booster packs, twiddled the key a few times to heat the glow plugs (I only waited for the lights to go out then tried but he did it a few times) and it started first time. He said it was more than likely the heater plugs needed replacing and as they were under the manifold, it would need a garage to replace them.

So, that evening I dropped it into a garage. Rang this morning for an update and the guy mentioned that he didn't replace heater plugs as it may be the injectors as he thinks they are losing pressure overnight. He is going to mention it to a Ford garage (as he will be there today) to get their opinion.

My question, in your experience is it likely to be injectors or heater plugs?

Thanks in advance.

Bigus

Cold weather = heater plugs! cheap to try aswell! , new battery might get you over the hump too, can sometimes be the cheapest fix.
The fact that the break down man heated them a few times sorta proves glow plugs.

wexie

Deliverance XXV wrote: »

So, that evening I dropped it into a garage. Rang this morning for an update and the guy mentioned that he didn't replace heater plugs as it may be the injectors as he thinks they are losing pressure overnight. He is going to mention it to a Ford garage (as he will be there today) to get their opinion.

My question, in your experience is it likely to be injectors or heater plugs?

Given the weather I'd be inclined to go with glowplugs as well. If nothing else glowplugs are cheap, injectors are not.

(What did he mean with injectors are loosing pressure overnight? That doesnt make much sense)

Deliverance XXV

wexie wrote: »

(What did he mean with injectors are loosing pressure overnight? That doesnt make much sense)

Beats me - I understand the very basics of motoring but in terms of the inner workings of the engine I have no idea.

Deliverance XXV

Bigus wrote: »

new battery might get you over the hump too, can sometimes be the cheapest fix.

I should point out that the battery is a year old.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Definitely the plugs

wexie

Deliverance XXV wrote: »

Beats me - I understand the very basics of motoring but in terms of the inner workings of the engine I have no idea.

I'm no expert myself but it was always my understanding that injectors certainly don't stay pressurized overnight, I thought they loose pressure when the engine shuts down and the fuel pumps stop.

Then again I maybe wrong. Either way, servicing or replacing 4 injectors is likely to cost upwards of a grand, I'd go with the glow plugs first. Or, if this is a new thing you could always try some injector cleaner (as well as the glow plugs)

MidlandsM

Bigus wrote: »

The fact that the break down man heated them a few times sorta proves glow plugs.

ehhh, no, the only real way is to plug the car into the diagnostics, and see what faults are logged and exist.

A set of glow plugs will be of no use if pressure is low to the fuel rail for example.

Op, does your garage have proper diagnostics?

Deliverance XXV

MidlandsM wrote: »

Op, does your garage have proper diagnostics

To be honest I don't know but it is unlikely as it is your average country town mechanic with a small business (recommended by family in moment of hurry... Never trust family recommendations, I know).

I guess I will know more later. I understand there will be an overlap in opinions from mechanics dependent on experience, qualifications, specialist areas, etc., but I would not have expected a difference from glow plugs to injectors.

What gets me is that the car was running perfectly after breakdown assistance. That being said, I suppose an injector could be going but would it be that obvious from the mechanic looking, or would replacement injectors even fix the original issue?

MidlandsM

the issue will be logged in the ecu trouble codes, and any other speculation is useless. Diagnostics need to be plugged in. Otherwise you could start throwing money are issues that don't exist on someones hunch.

wexie

Deliverance XXV wrote: »

What gets me is that the car was running perfectly after breakdown assistance. That being said, I suppose an injector could be going but would it be that obvious from the mechanic looking, or would replacement injectors even fix the original issue?

You could do a little test yourself tomorrow morning when the car is nice and cold, do like the break down mechanic did and 'prime' the plugs a few times and see how she starts?

EDIT : with regards to diagnostics, they're probably not as expensive as you think and would be well worthwhile investing in for any mechanic, even cheap ones could be used to read error codes.

dieselbug

Rang this morning for an update and the guy mentioned that he didn't replace heater plugs as it may be the injectors as he thinks they are losing pressure overnight. He is going to mention it to a Ford garage (as he will be there today) to get their opinion.

Sounds like your mechanic might be out of his depth.

On common rail systems the pressure in the system is released when the engine is stopped.

Weak, leaking injectors can cause slow starting as the system will struggle to build pressure. Cranking speed is also critical, so good battery and starter.

But a correctly working glow plug system would be one of the first things to eliminate.

Deliverance XXV

Just an update;

The garage rang early yesterday morning recommending it to go to another larger garage to investigate the injectors. I asked him did he look at changing the glowplugs and he said no. He charged me very little for looking at and holding the car. My gf picked the car up yesterday at around 4 which started after booster was applied to the battery.

I tested it again last night around nine and it started on the first go by heating the glow plugs four times before trying.

Went to try it again this morning and now it won't start with the same action, but you can tell by the engine's chuggs it is close. No-one is around to help jump the car so I decided not to try anymore in case I waste the battery.

Any thoughts?

dantastic

I don't think it's the glow plugs. It's not cold enough that you should have to heat the plugs at all.
Injectors. maybe... I wouldn't start there considering what you have said so far.

Diesel cars are super sensitive to cranking speed. The fact that the car starts when you give it a boost would suggest that the engine isn't swinging fast enough.

You might have a newish battery but what is the CCA of the battery and compare that to manufacturer recommended CCA. The manufacturers tend to set their recommendations a bit low as well so if 450CCA is recommended you should probably have at least 500.

Crucially make sure you are looking at the CCA value and not the MCA value. If a battery manufacturer is just listing the MCA value walk away!

MidlandsM

You have to laugh sometimes at these threads here on Boards. Earlier in this thread you have posters all pure sure it was nothing else but the heater plugs....all experts.........but its not the heater plugs.

This can need to be plugged into proper diagnostics......only then will the real issue be pin pointed.

Deliverance XXV

Just an update on this:

Brought it to a Ford garage (very little open on a Saturday where I am) and asked them to check the diagnostics. They checked them and said that it could be injectors or fuel pump and could send it for injectors diagnostics. I agreed and it came back that all four would need replacing or reconditioning. I chose reconditioning as the car doesn't really have that much value. Cost me €900 for reconditioning and all diagnostics.

Got the car home and the next day I brought it for a drive. The coil light came on several times, and while it was cleared after an engine restart, the last time the light flashed on the way home I couldn't get to a safe place to restart and the car cut out after about a minute or so with the coil light flashing. The coil light seemed to come on after I hit a certain high rev as it didn't come back when I kept speed at ~70Km/h and the car at < 2500Revs.

Rang the garage and dropped it into them. Again, they read the diagnostics and this time they say that they would need to do the fuel pump and something else (related to fuel pump) for €1400. I obviously said no, and would they give me a trade-in price. Fun times.