Controls Upgrade & Setup Advice

Mr.Me32

Hi,

I’m looking to get some advice on heating controls upgrades. Looking to take advantage of the SEAI grants also. Is there any restriction on the particular systems which must be used? i.e. do they need to meet particular standards etc. aside from requiring a registered installer?

I’m in a pre-2006 built home and I’m already looking into Attic Insulation as it’s very poor at the minute. To say the insulation was laid is an understatement; it was more thrown up in patches. I’m also looking into draft proofing windows and doors as there are some large gaps in the PVC windows.

The original heating controls were an APT Timer side by side with 3 switches for zones. House has 3 zones, downstairs (living & kitchen), bedrooms (4 across 2 floors) and DHW.

I replaced the APT years ago with a 3 channel Horstmann H37XL which is fine but somewhat limited in that it doesn’t take advantage of a boiler interlock and also it only has 3 times per day which can be programmed. Because of wiring I’ve had to put boiler power on one channel, heating on another and DHW on the last. I could have split the zones and turned on the boiler with a relay but there was a bit of work in it that I never got around to. Stats only activate the zone valves.

Also stats are in a very large hallway and large landing space so are pretty ineffective as these are pretty cold due to drafts and tiny radiator. With full heat for an hour they only reach 15°C roughly.

Boiler is a Warmflow Kabin Pak and at the last service (over 2 years ago) was running at 87% efficiency. Rads are balanced so that those furthest are getting more flow etc.

I’m finding the heating as it is to be very inefficient. Obviously insulation and boiler interlock are issues. Downstairs heating even with balancing are heating within 30 mins to a very high level and hence need to be turned off at the timer. Upstairs needs longer to heat but gets starved due to switching off because of downstairs. Therefore timer is only set to 30 mins for 2 of the 3 slots. DHW is generally switched on for each of these 3 slots partly due to lack of boiler interlock and also usage.

2 bedrooms on first floor are used during the day/evening so switching off that zone entirely is not an option.

So advice I’m looking for is based on the following questions.

1. Should my stats be positioned elsewhere? While I know hallway and landing are recommended I think particularly in my house these locations are a waste of time. Should I continue to ignore the old stats and put in new ones in better locations? Wireless is the preference as I don’t plan to rewire or chase walls.
2. My thoughts are that TRV’s would certainly help. Should I go for something where they could integrate to a broader system such as the Evohome? This looks good but very expensive (over €1,000 with 6 TRV’s). http://evohome.honeywell.com/. Is the Evohome overkill?
3. Would the likes of the Heatmiser neoKit 2 be a better option (certainly cheaper) along with regular TRV’s? http://www.heatmisershop.co.uk/room-thermostats-c1/neo-app-controllable-thermostats-c61/heatmiser-neokit-2-sapphire-black-p140
4. A similar system to the Heatmiser seems to be a new one called Owl Intuition, from what I gather they’re relatively new. Doesn’t look as polished as Heatmiser though. http://theowlireland.com/owl_heating_hot_water_control/3-zone-heating-hot-water
5. I also looked at a Nest alternative called Tado http://www.tado.com/ie/this-is-tado, again looks very polished but only works off one stat replacing an existing one (in my case the ones I think are ineffective) and does not seem to control zones or DHW.
6. Aside from the Evohome TRV’s what models could people recommend? Are TRV’s worthwhile? Do they not measure air temperature at the rad when the far side of the room could be cold if it was a large room?
7. Also, I read online (http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Heating-and-hot-water/Thermostats-and-controls) that the stat on the boiler itself should be set to quite a high setting. Is this true? I have it at mid-range which per the link suggests I’m not getting the most effective use of the boiler.
8. Lastly are radiator reflectors worthwhile at all? Looking at a crowd called Radflek maybe http://www.radflek.com/

I’m leaning towards the Evohome or the Heatmiser. Remote control is something I’m interested in, both because I travel and I can have very random work times so fixed time every day is not always a good thing for me. The Heatmiser and The Owl above both wire into existing stats so if my stat positions should be moved then I’d be looking at a wireless relay option which The Owl does but not sure about Heatmiser.

Does anyone have experience with the systems I’ve mentioned above? I know some if not all are relatively new. Does anyone have suggestions on another approach I should take?

Sorry if the post is long winded; I wanted to give as much background as possible.

Thanks in advance for any advice/suggestions!!

fulhamfan

There is a long blog here on the various options and if you search by Climote when the site is back up and running properly, u will see the options and decisions people have made. For what it's worth, I went for Tado at a one of cost of 299 and had a mate who is a sparks fit although there is a very good video on the tado web site.

I went for it because it's German and it does not rely on me to do much other than leave my GPS and web enabled on my phone. In place six weeks and I'm happy out, I wake to a warm house, it detects when I've left and turns my heat off and when I leave the office in the evening, it checks the traffic to see how long it is going to take me to get home; it then checks the weather and by the time I get home, the house is cosy as anything. When I went away for a week, it turned the heating on each time the temp dropped below 5 degrees so no more worrying about frozen pipes etc. At any time, I can take control by clicking manual in the app or on the website but to date, I have had no need to manually operate at all.

If like me, you want something that works and something that requires you to do nothing, then Tado is your ideal purchase. If you want something additional to a heating control then some of the other options in the page I referenced at the start, may suit you better.

All the best

LMK

My house is configured same as yours - 3 Zones, up to 3 months ago the system was 3 switches wired in series with a APT timer, I updated to a simple wireless system - left the DHW as is still wired via the timer, isolated the rads in the 2 zones from the timer and wired them to a wireless receiver from Danfoss model RX2C that is switched on/off via 2 wireless room thermostats Danfoss TP7000 models - gives 6 time zones per day and 7 day or 5/2 day (toggle switch to select) control I find 5/2 to be best, total cost €260. It's fit and forget once I found best place to put the Thermostats. This is the first winter that the house isn't too hot or cold at various times of the day really pleased with the set-up.

Mr.Me32

Thanks for the responses guys, appreciate the input!!

@fulhamfan I'll try find that Climote blog. Not a fan of Climote but might be good to see what alternatives were suggested.

In terms of the tado, it sounds very positive and sounds very like the Nest if not better. Am I right in assuming though that everything is switched from the one stat and that zones are not controlled separately with tado?


@LMV the Danfoss look interesting. They don't seem to have web/remote control though. Preference would be something with remote control I still won't rule them out though. When you say

It's fit and forget once I found best place to put the Thermostats.

, how did you go about finding the best place, was it more trial and error or did you follow some system?

LMK

If you think about it its really just commonsense with a bit of trial and error as to where to put the Thermostats - midway up a wall, away from drafts and not too close to a radiator. For Zone 1, I selected the Kitchen an inside wall and selected desired temperature for the room so if it means (as it turned it was!) the other rooms are at an acceptable temp then you're sorted. The advantage of being wireless is that if you're first location is poor you can move to a new location easily. Tip I also had 2 other digital thermometers that I used to help out for this but only as a sanity check.
I didn't go for a remote controlled system, its a nice idea but I felt that it might move from a novelty to a chore pretty quickly. I also think that if you insulate the hell out of the house that will save you much more than any state of the art control system especially in a poorly insulated house.

Mr.Me32

@LMK Thanks for the info. Good advice on the stats. I wanted to get away from my hallway for that exact reason, too much draft. Plus putting it in one of the rooms means it can better control the comfort level in that room. As they're not very different in size in each zone then hopefully all rooms in each zone will follow suit. Do you have TRV's in addition to the stats or just regular valves? I understand a stat and TRV in the same space could be conflicting?

I agree with you on the insulation. I plan to do as much as is possible. Although cost is a consideration. I know the attic is in bad need of insulation upgrade and windows and doors need draft proofing so I'll be starting there.

I also agree with you on the remote control, novelty will wear off but to be honest it's more the convenience due to usage and random work times that make it a option worth considering. Tado sounds good for that reason as it seems to be pretty intuitive, downside to Tado that I can make out is it's only one zone.

LMK

I don't have any TVR's.
My heating is set to come on in the evenings if the Temp is <20DegC between 4-30 and 11, for the rest of the 24 hours I set the temp to either 16 17 or 18DegC depending on the Time so once the ambient temp is over this nothing happens with the boiler. The Stat has an up/down button that you can use to manually override the set temp for any instantaneous time period it then reverts back to the programmed temp for next time period.

ted1

Just as a FYI, I got a 10% discount code of Tado earlier today when I sent them a query.

I also have a 15% discount off the neo which I got off heat miser for registering my interest , it expires soon. Let me know if you want it. Although it might still be available on their site.

I've been looking at various options and I think the TADO looks the more interesting, in that it adjusts if you not there and so on.

At the moment I don't even have a thermostat just a dial which lets you select 15min interval. I think I'm going to hold off getting a system and run a pulse timer to record boiler run time on a data logger and then change to a TADO and see what the real difference is.


To the poster above who is even contemplating spending 1000 on 6 TRV. Put away your wallet. TRV will cost about 30 each supplied and fitted. Set them right and then just turn on and off the zones.

With regards having the boiler on max, that's not always the best. My house was built in 84 and the heat just disappears as the insulation is poor. It makes more sense to have it on a low setting for longer.

Mr.Me32

ted1 wrote: »

Just as a FYI, I got a 10% discount code of Tado earlier today when I sent them a query.

I also have a 15% discount off the neo which I got off heat miser for registering my interest , it expires soon. Let me know if you want it. Although it might still be available on their site.

Thanks for the info, I'm still weighing up options right now and may not make a call for a little while as I will be away.

ted1 wrote: »

I've been looking at various options and I think the TADO looks the more interesting, in that it adjusts if you not there and so on.

At the moment I don't even have a thermostat just a dial which lets you select 15min interval. I think I'm going to hold off getting a system and run a pulse timer to record boiler run time on a data logger and then change to a TADO and see what the real difference is.


To the poster above who is even contemplating spending 1000 on 6 TRV. Put away your wallet. TRV will cost about 30 each supplied and fitted. Set them right and then just turn on and off the zones.

I agree with you on the €1,000, it's overkill but was just one option to consider, however this was for the whole system and not just the TRV's. I quite like the Tado but what is putting me off is the fact it cannot do zones. So I'd effectively have to take the zones out of action and run the whole thing as one and DHW separately.

ted1 wrote: »

With regards having the boiler on max, that's not always the best. My house was built in 84 and the heat just disappears as the insulation is poor. It makes more sense to have it on a low setting for longer.

Again, thanks for the info, I think you're right here. I have poor insulation which I will be looking into first so will take a look at the boiler after that if it needs it.

bootser

Hi,just found this thread, was wonderin what if anything you went for as I'm in the market for somthing myself! Was looking at eq3-Max! Trv for 30 ea and lan gateway for 50, inexpensive and decent reviews.

Mr.Me32

Hi Booster, I haven't been on this in a while so apologies for the late reply.

Unfortunately I didn't install anything yet, something else came up so I dropped this down my priority list. I will be following up on it later this year, but if it's of any help I was leaning towards the Heatmiser option.

Did you install the eQ-3 MAX? If so how did you find it?

bootser

new baby so everything on hold recently,just ordered an eq3 room stat and trv head from Conrad. gonna trial on the sitting room and will post how I find it in a couple of months.

Wearb

bootser wrote: »

new baby so everything on hold recently,just ordered an eq3 room stat and trv head from Conrad. gonna trial on the sitting room and will post how I find it in a couple of months.

I was just looking at the €10 prv in the Conrad site. I downloaded the PDF. It says it has two presets and 3 programmable settings. Do you know if this means that the presets cannot be overridden? If that was the case it would make a great product almost useless.