Business owner stealing tips

oldguysrip

My daughter works part time in a bar restaurant as she is in college. She has long felt that the tips for functions were low but never pursued it. She met a friend of a friend who had a christmas party at the bar who inquired if she received the tip for the service. He told her that when he paid he left €100 tip for her and her colleague by name and told the owner to make sure they got it - which she didn't.

Today she asked the owner did they leave a tip - he denied it. A couple of hours later she asked again and again he denied it she told him she new about it and asked if there were any other tips left. He then offered her €20. she told him to shove it and keep the job.

My view is that she should pursue a claim for constructive dismissal with the employment rights commissioner.

Any views on tackling this would be welcome.
Thanks

Stheno

I don't actually think there are any legalities about how tips are to be handled by employers/employees apart from employees who receive tips being required to declare them on their tax return tbh

Michael D Not Higgins

Many places have a policy of pooling tips so they can be divided evenly amongst staff ( allowing chefs and other back of the house staff to be tipped too). I know when my sister was waitressing, she got to keep cash tips on her table but the card tips were pooled.

Is this what might have happened?

oldguysrip

No in this case the client said to the manager, here is €100 give that to XXX and xxxx, now make sure they get it. There is no such policy on tips there, if they are given to a staff member and they keep them individually. That manager has not been passing tips to staff but pocketing them. It says it all that he initially denied that a tip was given when approached.

Amazingfun

Oh what a cheap creep.

You need to follow up on this I'd say. Is there any way the tipper would be willing to pay the owner a visit, with your daughter present, and 'request' he give her the tip she deserves?

Also, the rest of the staff ought to be informed and make sure word gets around.

Mrs OBumble

Note that the OP says it's the owner, not just a manager who has not been passing on tips.

If you want to consider constructive dismissal, then you need to get proper legal advice.

That said, my instinct is that it's not a CD situation - the owner has not done anything which made your daughter feel that she had no choice but to resign. (Assuming that she is being paid at least minimum wage.)

Also, E100 sounds like an enormous tip - it would be more than the night's pay for some staff. Is your daughter really sure that the customer wasn't just big-mouthing? (There's a big thread on tips in here somewhere, and expereinced hospitality staff have pointed out the difference between what punters say they will/did do, and what the actually do.)

Very few places would be willing to see a tip like that go to just the named front-of-house staff, with no thanks to the back-of-house people who played an equal part in making the event successful.

oldguysrip

In this case the client is a straight up person telling the truth, the owner denied getting the tip initially. Nobody else received the tip. The owners wife who works there aggressively F&*%$d my daughter out of it when she confronted the owner.

Amazingfun

oldguysrip wrote: »

In this case the client is a straight up person telling the truth, the owner denied getting the tip initially. Nobody else received the tip. The owners wife who works there aggressively F&*%$d my daughter out of it when she confronted the owner.

Well I think it's shocking behavior on behalf of this owner, and her tip ought to belong to her, the person it was given to, and not anyone else.
People give the tip they want to give, I waitressed for years and often got large tips, the amount is no one else's business.

I would have no problem confronting him about it, and even better if the tipper is willing to come along and demand he hand it over.

Michael D Not Higgins

Amazingfun wrote: »

People give the tip they want to give, I waitressed for years and often got large tips, the amount is no one else's business.

Except the Revenue Commissioners.

Amazingfun

Ya got that right

But what I mean is : other employees.
Unless it was stated and understood that tips were to be shared (a terrible policy if you ask me), then that tip is her own.

Michael D Not Higgins

Amazingfun wrote: »

Ya got that right

But what I mean is : other employees.
Unless it was stated and understood that tips were to be shared (a terrible policy if you ask me), then that tip is her own.

Why is it a terrible policy? Surely the chef has a part to play in the customer's enjoyment.

If the customer was so adamant to give only her a tip he should have put it in her hand. I know you wouldn't expect the manager to do what he did but lesson learned.

Henry94

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Why is it a terrible policy? Surely the chef has a part to play in the customer's enjoyment.

Chefs are paid a lot more than waiters. Tip pooling defeats the purpose of tips which is to make sure the waiting staff look after the customers. Yes some staff can get lucky and have a great tipper but these things even out over time. I never tip on a card. I doubt the staff ever see it.

Michael D Not Higgins

Henry94 wrote: »

Chefs are paid a lot more than waiters. Tip pooling defeats the purpose of tips which is to make sure the waiting staff look after the customers. Yes some staff can get lucky and have a great tipper but these things even out over time. I never tip on a card. I doubt the staff ever see it.

And what about the general dogsbody in the kitchen on minimum wage?

Anyway the waiting staff should be looking after their customers regardless of tips but that's another topic. I tip for service, food, atmosphere, etc. so why shouldn't the chef get a cut (you could even weight it so the wait staff get more)?

seamus

Legally, if I give John €100 and ask him to pass that onto Jack, John does not have any right to keep that €100 or any part of it.

Failure to turn that cash over to Jack, is theft. If you want to go down that avenue, you make a report to the Gardai.

Outside of that, tips are messy and in a bit of a legal limbo, since they're basically cash gifts.

I wonder if it's even legal for a business to insist that staff may not receive tips or that all tips must be pooled. Tips left on the table are subject to whatever the restaurant's policy is on tips, but if a customer gives a tip directly to the server, does the business have any legal right to demand the server split that tip? The money is the property of the server.

Mrs OBumble

seamus wrote: »

I wonder if it's even legal for a business to insist that staff may not receive tips or that all tips must be pooled. Tips left on the table are subject to whatever the restaurant's policy is on tips, but if a customer gives a tip directly to the server, does the business have any legal right to demand the server split that tip? The money is the property of the server.

I'm no lawyer (which is kinda handy 'cos we cannot give legal advice here).

But it seems to me that anything which is given to me in the course of my employment is not my personal property. Rather it's my employer's property, and I am required to deal with it according to my employer's polciy. (And I know people who've been disciplined for acceptiing and not declaring a bottle of orange juice when the policy said not more than a glass.)

Now if someone wants to stop me in the street, in non work time, and give me a gift - well, that's mine. (Subject to Revenue rules of course).

Michael D Not Higgins

I'm not advocating this as legal advice
http://www.justanswer.com/ireland-law/4f9nf-law-regarding-tips-gratuities-paid-waiters.html
I would question the manager's policy on tips.

seamus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But it seems to me that anything which is given to me in the course of my employment is not my personal property. Rather it's my employer's property, and I am required to deal with it according to my employer's polciy. (And I know people who've been disciplined for acceptiing and not declaring a bottle of orange juice when the policy said not more than a glass.)

I wonder if there's any case law on this. It seems a tad iffy considering that if someone gives a gift personally to me, it's mine, and my employer shouldn't be able to lay claim to it just because I happened to be working at the time. Though given the normality of tips, perhaps this has been tested in court.

Employers of course can insist that anything received from a customer or supplier is declared and can even insist that gifts beyond a certain threshold are refused/returned. In fact, in some industries there's are legal requirements to declare or refuse gifts beyond a certain threshold. But I don't know if the employer can claim it as company property.

Tigger

I tip about 15% for good service and I fold it up and hand it to my waiting person because I have heard this crap goes on. Pooled tips and such are not what I'm contributing to .

Mrs OBumble

I very rarely tip in Ireland, because here the he minimum wage in Ireland is high enough to live on. I do tip in countries where it's not.

Lux23

Is the manager the owner or just an employee? If it's the latter I would report him to the owners as in the hospitality sector, staff like that are very bad for business. If it's the former, then I guess all you can do is tell people what a poor employer he is.

The_Captain

seamus wrote: »

Legally, if I give John €100 and ask him to pass that onto Jack, John does not have any right to keep that €100 or any part of it.

Failure to turn that cash over to Jack, is theft. If you want to go down that avenue, you make a report to the Gardai.

Outside of that, tips are messy and in a bit of a legal limbo, since they're basically cash gifts.

I wonder if it's even legal for a business to insist that staff may not receive tips or that all tips must be pooled. Tips left on the table are subject to whatever the restaurant's policy is on tips, but if a customer gives a tip directly to the server, does the business have any legal right to demand the server split that tip? The money is the property of the server.

Legally, if you give John €100 and ask him to pass that onto Jack, you just gave John €100. That's why contracts exist.