New PGDE

whiteandlight

We've a lot of discussion about S&S/HR ongoing. It might be interesting to get the qualified teachers opinions as well as the students on the lengthening of the HDIP rather than restricting it to the PGDE q&a thread.

Note: this is just about the course change, please use the sticky as always for advice/questions about the course

One positive I personally think is the extra hours in the classroom. I know it is unpaid but there were quite a few people on my course who didn't have time to find their feet in the whirlwind of the dip year.


The major negative it looks to me is the cost for two years. If the intensity is as high as the HDIP was there is very little time for part time work particularly now that you have to be qualified to sub. I would imagine that cost will be a big barrier to incoming students.

Alqua

Musicmental85 wrote: »

The major negative it looks to me is the cost for two years. If the intensity is as high as the HDIP was there is very little time for part time work particularly now that you have to be qualified to sub. I would imagine that cost will be a big barrier to incoming students.

I heard talk recently of provisionally registering with the TC while doing the dip - wonder is that possible? It was a dip student I heard it from. Maybe it would still leave them outside the payroll though..

evolving_doors

Aye the whole teacher training lark needs to be tidied up, possibly there will be a fall off in applications to the 2 yr. Pgde so the loss in fees to the universities will be balanced out by the two year increase (I'm so happy for them:rolleyes:).
Looks like the BEd courses are the only game in town if you want to be a teacher. 5 or 6 years versus 4 years!!!

whiteandlight

Alqua wrote: »

I heard talk recently of provisionally registering with the TC while doing the dip - wonder is that possible? It was a dip student I heard it from. Maybe it would still leave them outside the payroll though..

I know you could but I'm not sure if its allowed anymore. Must do some research. I got very little substitution during my dip but I survived-just about! Its expensive!

tomissex

Musicmental85 wrote: »

The major negative it looks to me is the cost for two years. If the intensity is as high as the HDIP was there is very little time for part time work particularly now that you have to be qualified to sub. I would imagine that cost will be a big barrier to incoming students.

This. But also the content of the modules. Did my dip last year and I discussed it with other dips at the time. Some of our modules got extremely repetitive and I just wonder how the information will be stretched. Will there be extra modules and if there are will there then be more essays? More exams?

Alqua

The same dips had it from their lecturer that the workload would be something like 1.5 what it is now, with some sort of dissertation. It will probably differ between colleges?

whiteandlight

tomissex wrote: »

This. But also the content of the modules. Did my dip last year and I discussed it with other dips at the time. Some of our modules got extremely repetitive and I just wonder how the information will be stretched. Will there be extra modules and if there are will there then be more essays? More exams?

I'd love to have seen some more practical modules. Things like writing up a subject department folder, running an extracurricular activity etc

ytareh

Yet another shameless attempt by government to massage unemployment figures by removing a years worth of teaching graduates from the live register -they probably would have gone to England anyway ... .With of course the added crassness of putting teaching out of the reach of those who would normally have qualified for a 'grant' .Two year post grad course is considered a 'masters' which must be self funded .Not to mention the elephant in the room that the HDipEd was more than long enough at one year .In fact 'in my day ' -mid 90s- the course has a decided air of being a 'doss course' (Philosophy of Education lectures where 160 people were left wondering 'what the heck have I just listened to for the last 50 minutes?!' ???)apart of course from the farcical element of staying up till midnight the night before teaching sessions writing "Date , Subject, Objectives ......" ad nauseum until a two inch thick file of 'class plans' was produced.
Then came the realisation 4 or 5 days into ones first 'real' ,more than four hours a week , teaching post that the whole thing was unsustainable .

airneal

Well I heard from the horses mouth (ask no questions), that the applications to do the Dip through PAC this year is extremely low!! The guy said that anyone considering applying should apply, as more than likely they will get offered a place on the course. It cost me about 10K (which is really good) to do this course this year, I see that NUIG has the fees static at 6325 for each year, so anyone wanting to do the course, it will cost at least 20K to do from next year on. That's crazy money, for just a part-time profession anymore, really.

phish

Armelodie wrote: »

Aye the whole teacher training lark needs to be tidied up, possibly there will be a fall off in applications to the 2 yr. Pgde so the loss in fees to the universities will be balanced out by the two year increase (I'm so happy for them:rolleyes:).
Looks like the BEd courses are the only game in town if you want to be a teacher. 5 or 6 years versus 4 years!!!

B.Ed courses are going to have to add on a year as well. Currently in the middle of mine and we were told by a lecturer that they were in the process of figuring out how to add on another year to do more education modules or else they will lose the graduates in the future won't be qualified to teach.

whiteandlight

airneal wrote: »

Well I heard from the horses mouth (ask no questions), that the applications to do the Dip through PAC this year is extremely low!! The guy said that anyone considering applying should apply, as more than likely they will get offered a place on the course. It cost me about 10K (which is really good) to do this course this year, I see that NUIG has the fees static at 6325 for each year, so anyone wanting to do the course, it will cost at least 20K to do from next year on. That's crazy money, for just a part-time profession anymore, really.

How do you get from 6325 to 20k?? Oh hang on that's not just the course fee?

So we're looking at lower qualified graduates being accepted? God I hope they know the job situation. Anyone with a low degree is going to find it very hard to get a job

Peter Flynt

airneal wrote: »

Well I heard from the horses mouth (ask no questions), that the applications to do the Dip through PAC this year is extremely low!! The guy said that anyone considering applying should apply, as more than likely they will get offered a place on the course. It cost me about 10K (which is really good) to do this course this year, I see that NUIG has the fees static at 6325 for each year, so anyone wanting to do the course, it will cost at least 20K to do from next year on. That's crazy money, for just a part-time profession anymore, really.

For a job that offers:

- Virtually No Chance of Full Time Employment unless you're well connected.

- A fulltime starting salary of 30K with no payments for allowances.

- An expectation of having to work many hours for free doing extra curricular activity.

- A demand from the DES to cover 43 hours (pro-rata) of S&S for free.

- Reaching a salary of just over 50K. . . After 25 years service.

- Virtually no chance for promotion.

- An extra unpaid 4 weeks [Croke PArk & Haddington Road]

- Guaranteed debt starting into your "profession" with a demand from the Teaching Council of 90 euro and 65 euro per year thereafter just to stay on a list.

Seriously . . . A job in McDonalds would look more attractive.

evolving_doors

Ah joe joe, three months holidays joe, milking it dem teachers.

On a more serious note though..despite the uk problems they do have a really good mentoring system which is better than ten years of theory.

airneal

Musicmental85 wrote: »

How do you get from 6325 to 20k?? Oh hang on that's not just the course fee?

So we're looking at lower qualified graduates being accepted? God I hope they know the job situation. Anyone with a low degree is going to find it very hard to get a job

That's 2 years fees and me commuting from home. Unreal money to be spending on a course. :rolleyes:

Mardy Bum

Musicmental85 wrote: »

So we're looking at lower qualified graduates being accepted? God I hope they know the job situation. Anyone with a low degree is going to find it very hard to get a job

Yes this is the big issue now. Colleges are going to accept whomever they can which will inevitably drop the standard of the course as time goes on.

sitstill

Why anyone would want to spend two years doing a course and spending over €10,000 in the process to qualify them for what has become a badly paid, seasonal, part-time job is beyond me.

Peter Flynt

sitstill wrote: »

Why anyone would want to spend two years doing a course and spending over €10,000 in the process to qualify them for what has become a badly paid, seasonal, part-time job in beyond me.

. . . only they won't be considered qualified by the Teaching Council until they've done 300 or so hours of teaching post graduation and attended 10 evening talks coordinated by the same money grabbing QUANGO.

I believe if this is not done then the course has to be done again.

Inspector Coptoor

Go to the UK, qualify in one year, work there for 1 year, then come home.

Simples

Peter Flynt

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Go to the UK, qualify in one year, work there for 1 year, then come home.

Simples

Seems that it's coming to that.

Not only do qualified teachers have to emigrate but now, it seems, those looking to do teacher training as well.

Miss Lockhart

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Go to the UK, qualify in one year, work there for 1 year, then come home.

Simples

Is it though? UK qualifications won't fulfil the new ECTS requirements - shortfalls will still have to be addressed. It's hard to know whether this would work out as easier.

Inspector Coptoor

It'd be simpler in that you would pay less fees for a one year course, you could then do your probation year over there and earn a decent graduate wage & then come back home with a years more experience than any 2 year course candidate and then you could complete the History & Structure of Irish Ed exam to make up any shortfall

Miss Lockhart

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

It'd be simpler in that you would pay less fees for a one year course, you could then do your probation year over there and earn a decent graduate wage & then come back home with a years more experience than any 2 year course candidate and then you could complete the History & Structure of Irish Ed exam to make up any shortfall

But with UK courses now having only half the required credits I think there will be a lot more to be made up than just the History exam. The TC have a note pn the website warning those starting courses from this year. They don't fully explain the procedures for how such courses will be recognised if lacking credits though.

Peter Flynt

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

But with UK courses now having only half the required credits I think there will be a lot more to be made up than just the History exam. The TC have a note pn the website warning those starting courses from this year. They don't fully explain the procedures for how such courses will be recognised if lacking credits though.

Can the Teaching Council refuse to recognise the teaching qualifications gained in another EU state?

Inspector Coptoor

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

But with UK courses now having only half the required credits I think there will be a lot more to be made up than just the History exam. The TC have a note pn the website warning those starting courses from this year. They don't fully explain the procedures for how such courses will be recognised if lacking credits though.

Fair enough.
They're putting checks & balances in place to prevent this kind of mass exodus then.

Putting huge hurdles in place for an ever more difficult & for ever reducing remuneration

Miss Lockhart

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Fair enough.
They're putting checks & balances in place to prevent this kind of mass exodus then.

Putting huge hurdles in place for an ever more difficult & for ever reducing remuneration

I don't really agree with the increased duration in teaching qualifications here, but to be fair, these requirements to make up any shortfalls when qualified abroad have always been there. It isn't anything new so I don't think it's fair to say it is an attempt to prevent mass exodus. It's just that the shortfalls have never been so significant before.

derb12

It seems to me that the government want to be able to claim that all Irish Teachers have masters qualifications thereby making us as good as the Finnish.
What they miss is that the Finnish teachers have masters qualifications in their subject areas .... while our smart government have just removed the incentive for Irish teachers to get a masters in their subject area.
I did my Dip 10 years ago. The only stress involved was getting to/from school and college and the slightly nerve-wracking experience of supervisors coming into the class. The course itself was ridiculously light on core material. As another poster said, there was tonnes of repetition, overlap between topics and a crazy variability in the quality of the subject instruction. By March/April, the whole thing had run out of steam. I cannot imagine how on earth they could stretch it to 2 years.

Miss Lockhart

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Can the Teaching Council refuse to recognise the teaching qualifications gained in another EU state?

They can require any shortfalls to be addressed. For example those qualifying in the UK up to now have had to sit the History and Structure of Irish Education exam and primary teachers had to sit an Irish exam. The shortfalls are more significant now though.

Peter Flynt

derb12 wrote: »

It seems to me that the government want to be able to claim that all Irish Teachers have masters qualifications thereby making us as good as the Finnish.
What they miss is that the Finnish teachers have masters qualifications in their subject areas .... while our smart government have just removed the incentive for Irish teachers to get a masters in their subject area.
I did my Dip 10 years ago. The only stress involved was getting to/from school and college and the slightly nerve-wracking experience of supervisors coming into the class. The course itself was ridiculously light on core material. As another poster said, there was tonnes of repetition, overlap between topics and a crazy variability in the quality of the subject instruction. By March/April, the whole thing had run out of steam. I cannot imagine how on earth they could stretch it to 2 years.

There is no inspection system in Finland. Teachers teach no more than three hours a day with an in built system of 2 hours per week CPD. Most classes contain two or more teachers "team-teaching" to cater for the varying needs of the students.

Seems to me that they want to copy aspects of the Finnish system which suits them.

We copy the Brits more than we copy Finland

Peter Flynt

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

They can require any shortfalls to be addressed. For example those qualifying in the UK up to now have had to sit the History and Structure of Irish Education exam and primary teachers had to sit an Irish exam. The shortfalls are more significant now though.

A QUANGO setting up various hoops for qualified candidates from other EU countries seems legally suspect to me.

Pwpane

derb12 wrote: »

It seems to me that the government want to be able to claim that all Irish Teachers have masters qualifications thereby making us as good as the Finnish.
What they miss is that the Finnish teachers have masters qualifications in their subject areas .... while our smart government have just removed the incentive for Irish teachers to get a masters in their subject area.
I did my Dip 10 years ago. The only stress involved was getting to/from school and college and the slightly nerve-wracking experience of supervisors coming into the class. The course itself was ridiculously light on core material. As another poster said, there was tonnes of repetition, overlap between topics and a crazy variability in the quality of the subject instruction. By March/April, the whole thing had run out of steam. I cannot imagine how on earth they could stretch it to 2 years.

Several years ago, an education lecturer suggested to me that when the teaching council was up and running, that obtaining a masters in your own subject area within 5 years of starting teaching would become necessary to retain registration and that after that, continuous CPD at your own expense would become compulsory also to retain registration.

That would be an incentive.

whiteandlight

I can't see the masters requirement coming in unless its funded. No way can teachers afford it, particularly new teachers who go through two years of a DIP.

I'm pretty sure its fairly standard to have professional bodies assess qualifications worldwide not just in teaching. Doesn't it happen for medical fields as well?

evolving_doors

Pwpane wrote: »

Several years ago, an education lecturer suggested to me that when the teaching council was up and running, that obtaining a masters in your own subject area within 5 years of starting teaching would become necessary to retain registration and that after that, continuous CPD at your own expense would become compulsory also to retain registration.

That would be an incentive.

Only problem is now though you have a good deal of teachers on part time/substitution hours even 5 years from graduation. Not too easy to fund a part time masters in those cases. Hell, even these days a one income/mortgaged family with full time hours teacher would find it a stretch to pay 10k for a part time masters.
The €500 yearly allowance and tax relief wasn't all that great either..just meant you'd break even after about 15years!!!

I reckon to hell with the Pgde as I learned more critical thinking and research skills from my masters...couple that with some decent mentoring program and life would be so much easier.

2011abc

Pwpane wrote: »

Several years ago, an education lecturer suggested to me that when the teaching council was up and running, that obtaining a masters in your own subject area within 5 years of starting teaching would become necessary to retain registration and that after that, continuous CPD at your own expense would become compulsory also to retain registration.

That would be an incentive.

Sweet Jeez they actually want us all working every waking hour and dropping dead before retirement !Its getting to stage classroom teacher is expected to work harder than principal !!!!Pay for our own compulsory Masters ?!

whiteandlight

2011abc wrote: »

Sweet Jeez they actually want us all working every waking hour and dropping dead before retirement !Its getting to stage classroom teacher is expected to work harder than principal !!!!Pay for our own compulsory Masters ?!

Its just speculation. I can't see it happening when the PGDE is already being upgraded to practically an MA already

queensinead

Is the PDGE now two years in all colleges?

How much roughly does it cost overall?

Inspector Coptoor

queensinead wrote: »

Is the PDGE now two years in all colleges?

How much roughly does it cost overall?

2 years

€10,000

1 year probation afterwards involving 300 hours minimum teaching & a load of Teaching Council NQT evenings

queensinead

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

2 years

€10,000

1 year probation afterwards involving 300 hours minimum teaching & a load of Teaching Council NQT evenings

Thank You