Finishing Continental weanling heifers at 12 months

ellewood

Ive said it many times before if all my cows would have bull calves id be happy, the value of heifer calves always brought down the output accross all cows.
I had taught I had seen something in the FJ over the christmas about finishing them at 12 mths giving good results, but just taught in was something I taught up in a drunken haze some night over Christmas in the pub, But yesterday got teagasc leaflet in the door giving the details from one of the better farms

Details are

Aug 13 heifers were 344Kg in mart and were making E732 or E2.12/Kg

Heifers brought home fed 540Kg meal on grass

Heifers killed December 4th and killed out E1149 @266Kg dead

Costs were put in as
E140 for meal and E15 for grass (Im sure there were a lot more costs that this- transport, fees, maybe another dose, value of grass eaten to cattle in spring instead etc)

Giving a margin of E265/head over selling as weanlings.

Any one else doing something like this to increase the value of the weanling heifer?

hugo29

ellewood wrote: »

Ive said it many times before if all my cows would have bull calves id be happy, the value of heifer calves always brought down the output accross all cows.
I had taught I had seen something in the FJ over the christmas about finishing them at 12 mths giving good results, but just taught in was something I taught up in a drunken haze some night over Christmas in the pub, But yesterday got teagasc leaflet in the door giving the details from one of the better farms

Details are

Aug 13 heifers were 344Kg in mart and were making E732 or E2.12/Kg

Heifers brought home fed 540Kg meal on grass

Heifers killed December 4th and killed out E1149 @266Kg dead

Costs were put in as
E140 for meal and E15 for grass (Im sure there were a lot more costs that this- transport, fees, maybe another dose, value of grass eaten to cattle in spring instead etc)

Giving a margin of E265/head over selling as weanlings.

Any one else doing something like this to increase the value of the weanling heifer?

Elle, i would take those costs with a pinch of salt

LivInt20

hugo29 wrote: »

Elle, i would take those costs with a pinch of salt

Why?

hugo29

LivInt20 wrote: »

Why?

cause not all of us could achieve those results, you have to factor in facilities and land type before you throw achievable figures out there

also i would would question the only costs between Aug and December being Meal and Grass

ellewood

hugo29 wrote: »

Elle, i would take those costs with a pinch of salt

Id agree 100%

But at over E400 in difference between Aug and Dec there still has to be a few pound in it.

hugo29

ellewood wrote: »

Id agree 100%

But at over E400 in difference between Aug and Dec there still has to be a few pound in it.

there probably is but is it worth the extra work, would having a bunch of heifers on the farm not create difficulties in itself, unless you had an outfarm which could carry them for a few months

LivInt20

Hugo29 Your quote was i would take those costs with a pinch of salt

The article simply quoted costs that this farmer incurred, not what is or is not achievable.

Maybe suggest what other costs you think might be involved before writing off the entire article.

Feed is always going to be the biggest cost. They even put in €15 for grass.

What else?

A dose maybe, €5 per head.

Anything else? This still leaves a margin over the August price that he did not take of €260 per animal.

LivInt20

ellewood wrote: »

Id agree 100%

But at over E400 in difference between Aug and Dec there still has to be a few pound in it.

Farmers must consider is there any profit in selling weanling heifers at €732.

Most suckler farmers agree the cost of keeping a suckler cow is €700-800, especially Autumn calving and in the west of Ireland.

Selling these heifers at this price means the farmer is only breaking even on these cows for the year.

What are the merits in doing as in the article or keeping over the winter and finishing off grass the following summer at 20 months of age.

Surely these heifers could be got into €1300 next July or August.

onyerbikepat

LivInt20 wrote: »

What else?

A dose maybe, €5 per head.

Are you serious? :eek:
Vet, mortality, machinery, buildings, water charges, electricity, car, diesel etc etc etc.

hugo29

LivInt20 wrote: »

Hugo29 Your quote was i would take those costs with a pinch of salt

The article simply quoted costs that this farmer incurred, not what is or is not achievable.

Maybe suggest what other costs you think might be involved before writing off the entire article.

Feed is always going to be the biggest cost. They even put in €15 for grass.

What else?

A dose maybe, €5 per head.

Anything else? This still leaves a margin over the August price that he did not take of €260 per animal.

living20, i wrote off the article because i dont think they have included all the costs, there was a cost with transport back from mart, cost with transport to factory and factory costs, i wonder were the animals still in test in december, there would have been a dose, that is costs already omitted from the article

good luck to that man if he got the quoted figures

ellewood

LivInt20 wrote: »

Farmers must consider is there any profit in selling weanling heifers at €732.

Most suckler farmers agree the cost of keeping a suckler cow is €700-800, especially Autumn calving and in the west of Ireland.

Selling these heifers at this price means the farmer is only breaking even on these cows for the year.

What are the merits in doing as in the article or keeping over the winter and finishing off grass the following summer at 20 months of age.

Surely these heifers could be got into €1300 next July or August.

That's exactly why i asked in the first place
Is there other costs or extra problems ie. as Hugo said keeping a group of heifers separate for an extra few months

Or has he lost out by killing them so young? and not grazed them second summer
Would he still have the same margin after grazing them with the extra housing costs, winter feed and labour?

The biggest advantage, if it works, is that there's no need for extra housing heifers are killed off grass and meal in Dec before entering costs start to add up

ellewood

He is using the exact same amount of assets to generate income

hugo29

ellewood wrote: »

That's exactly why i asked in the first place
Is there other costs or extra problems ie. as Hugo said keeping a group of heifers separate for an extra few months

Or has he lost out by killing them so young? and not grazed them second summer
Would he still have the same margin after grazing them with the extra housing costs, winter feed and labour?

The biggest advantage, if it works, is that there's no need for extra housing heifers are killed off grass and meal in Dec before entering costs start to add up

true but could you rely on being able to keep stock out until mid december every year

LivInt20

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Are you serious? :eek:
Vet, mortality, machinery, buildings, water charges, electricity, car, diesel etc etc etc.

Vet
Unlikely for own bred heifers for an extra few months, August to December.

Mortality

As above, unlikely.

All other costs you mention are fixed costs and not related to the cost of keeping the animal. i.e. Your buildings, machinery, electricity costs are still there whether or not you have any animals.

We are talking about the Margin for keeping the animal from August to December.

LivInt20

hugo29 wrote: »

living20, i wrote off the article because i dont think they have included all the costs, there was a cost with transport back from mart, cost with transport to factory and factory costs, i wonder were the animals still in test in december, there would have been a dose, that is costs already omitted from the article

good luck to that man if he got the quoted figures

Again you can work out these costs yourself. Take 20-€30 per head for transport from mart and to the factory.

Testing doesn't matter as the animals were slaughtered.

LivInt20

ellewood wrote: »

That's exactly why i asked in the first place
Is there other costs or extra problems ie. as Hugo said keeping a group of heifers separate for an extra few months

Or has he lost out by killing them so young? and not grazed them second summer
Would he still have the same margin after grazing them with the extra housing costs, winter feed and labour?

The biggest advantage, if it works, is that there's no need for extra housing heifers are killed off grass and meal in Dec before entering costs start to add up

Winter feed costs would have to be worked out if keeping for the winter.

Biggest advantage to killing in December is not taking up housing space.

If you could keep out until mid December and put to grass in early February this maybe an option.

hugo29

LivInt20 wrote: »

Again you can work out these costs yourself. Take 20-€30 per head for transport from mart and to the factory.

Testing doesn't matter as the animals were slaughtered.

yes of course one can, but in order for the article to be accurate these costs should have been listed, they are not so what else has been omitted that was my gripe,
the system is fine and if the system works then fair play,

re the test, yes but if ur herd test fell between august and december then those animals would have to have been included

bob charles

LivInt20 wrote: »

Vet
Unlikely for own bred heifers for an extra few months, August to December.

Mortality

As above, unlikely.

All other costs you mention are fixed costs and not related to the cost of keeping the animal. i.e. Your buildings, machinery, electricity costs are still there whether or not you have any animals.

We are talking about the Margin for keeping the animal from August to December.

Ah come on, we would all be making a fortune if that was the case.

Mortality you say is unlikely, its much more likely if you are keeping animals an extra 120 days. I used always loose a couple of home bred animals in the backend of the year put it down at at least €10 - €15 a head. A grazing cost of €15 , they must have only being looking out the gate at it.

LivInt20

bob charles wrote: »

Ah come on, we would all be making a fortune if that was the case.

Mortality you say is unlikely, its much more likely if you are keeping animals an extra 120 days. I used always loose a couple of home bred animals in the backend of the year put it down at at least €10 - €15 a head. A grazing cost of €15 , they must have only being looking out the gate at it.

The farmer in this article brought 5 home.

If he looses a couple of these he's as well to give up farming.

What was the reason for your couple of loses a year. Did you get the problem sorted out?

onyerbikepat

Lads you have to bring your fixed costs into it. How can you look at say 50 heifers in a field and say I have fixed costs for them because I keep them for 12 months. The 20 heifers in the other field, I only keep for a few months so there are no fixed costs for them. One for the accountants, I suppose.

bob charles

LivInt20 wrote: »

The farmer in this article brought 5 home.

If he looses a couple of these he's as well to give up farming.

What was the reason for your couple of loses a year. Did you get the problem sorted out?

From the last year in proper suckling I remember one calf died of a twisted gut, a weanling broke out and drowned, and I found one dead. animals find new ways of dying everyday

LivInt20

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Lads you have to bring your fixed costs into it. How can you look at say 50 heifers in a field and say I have fixed costs for them because I keep them for 12 months. The 20 heifers in the other field, I only keep for a few months so there are no fixed costs for them. One for the accountants, I suppose.

Talking about this article only and working out a margin for keeping the heifers or selling as weanlings. Your fixed costs stay the same whether you sell at mart as weanlings or bring home and finish.

The fixed costs only come in to play when calculating overall farm net profit/loss. Net profit would also include SPS and other supports received.

ellewood

LivInt20 wrote: »

Talking about this article only and working out a margin for keeping the heifers or selling as weanlings. Your fixed costs stay the same whether you sell at mart as weanlings or bring home and finish.

The fixed costs only come in to play when calculating overall farm net profit/loss. Net profit would also include SPS and other supports received.

Exactly between Aug and Dec you get the extra output less you're variable costs ie. feed etc, but without any extra fixed costs over and above what you'd have if sold in Aug.
Or maybe im missing something!

bbam

LivInt20 wrote: »

Talking about this article only and working out a margin for keeping the heifers or selling as weanlings. Your fixed costs stay the same whether you sell at mart as weanlings or bring home and finish.

The fixed costs only come in to play when calculating overall farm net profit/loss. Net profit would also include SPS and other supports received.

But how do you know the margin if you havent included all costs?
Gross margin maybe? but its net that we live off.

Most of us have fixed costs that don't change too much annually, so at the least you could atribute an approxamation based on last years figure. this is a cost to be added to every unit sale to ensure each carries their burden of the fixed costs..

But, there are all too many lads who think that their profit is the sale price less the purchase price and feeding cost.

I was astounded to talk to what I thought was a progressive farmer recently about carrying empty cows over the winter..

"but they cost nothing to keep as I didn't buy them and I was feeding the others anyway"

grassroot1

They were autumn born heifers of course, how would spring born heifers fair out? Only four or five in the trial I think but no harm in knowing what you could get them into for reference I suppose.

moy83

Would the grass from sept to dec be good enough for finishing cattle on ?
We had a good back end this year , everything was mild and dry but usually where I am the cattle would be well indoors by the end of november .
Even three months later without trying to finish them he should have made a better price in the mart if they were heavier

Muckit

Not talking about this post specifically, but l personally cannot understand all this baloney about early 'finishing'. To me an animal is 'finished' when it has finished growing, ie has reached its mature adult weight and has the correct fat cover.

The 'quick turnover'associated with early 'finishing' incurs additional costs per kg of beef produced. But you never hear anything about this. Mart fees, haulage, knackery and vet fees and factory deductions are all PER HEAD. But you get paid PER KG. The more animals put through a system, the more overheads. Also increased health incidences. Not to mention unproductive time spent outside the farm gate, ie marts and factories, what price do you put on this?

The experts will argue that younger stock has a higher rate of feed coversion efficiency, but this benefit is eroded by the additional costs the early finishing system incurs

LivInt20

bbam wrote: »

But how do you know the margin if you havent included all costs?
Gross margin maybe? but its net that we live off.

Most of us have fixed costs that don't change too much annually, so at the least you could atribute an approxamation based on last years figure. this is a cost to be added to every unit sale to ensure each carries their burden of the fixed costs..

But, there are all too many lads who think that their profit is the sale price less the purchase price and feeding cost.

I was astounded to talk to what I thought was a progressive farmer recently about carrying empty cows over the winter..

"but they cost nothing to keep as I didn't buy them and I was feeding the others anyway"

You include all costs associated directly with the cattle. These are the variable costs. This will give you the Gross Margin.

This figure can be compared against other farmers or production systems to see how you are doing in terms of profit or loss.

Take fixed costs away from this figure and add on SPS and other headage to give net profit, which is what you have to live off.

Alot of farmers are making a very small gross margin, however do not realise this as SPS plus other schemes hide this to show a net profit.

You cannot compare two farms net profit as there are numerous differences such as whether land, machinery etc is owned or rented.

Miname

I think it was a great article . Plenty of lads round here at it. I've 15 in a bunch I,ll be finishing at 16 months this year. I'm trying a constant lower quantity of meal and back out to grass at the end of February. If nothing it's an article that points out there are options out there.

Hershall

If teagasc said it then it must be true just like the fresian bulls!!!!!!

ellewood

Miname wrote: »

I think it was a great article . Plenty of lads round here at it. I've 15 in a bunch I,ll be finishing at 16 months this year. I'm trying a constant lower quantity of meal and back out to grass at the end of February. If nothing it's an article that points out there are options out there.

Yea I think it was a good article as well, anything that gives ya different ideas for different outlets for cattle which increase output and profit has to be looked at. I dont see any point in keeping an animal for twice as long if you get the same margin at the end of it - now maybe the margin from killing the same heifer at 24 months is twice that at 12-13 months after all fixed and variable costs are deducted.
The big plus for me is that you dont need a new shiny shed costing thousands in repayments each year to make it work as there gone before the winter

Maybe even if enough lads killed enough of heifers at 12 months there would be room for over 400kg dead bulls as the factories wouldnt have the numbers they have now:D:D

bob charles

I wonder how much the exceptional backend of the year distorted the figures for these heifers. I wouldnt like to be facing into having heifers ready for slaugther in the month of December without have housing for them

hugo29

bob charles wrote: »

I wonder how much the exceptional backend of the year distorted the figures for these heifers. I wouldnt like to be facing into having heifers ready for slaugther in the month of December without have housing for them

Or having them out last year (2012)

ellewood

bob charles wrote: »

I wonder how much the exceptional backend of the year distorted the figures for these heifers. I wouldnt like to be facing into having heifers ready for slaugther in the month of December without have housing for them

Would they be a penalty on price if they didnt kill a certin weight?

Say ya had a bad year and had to off load them earlier

They killed 266kg dead, so, say they were back 10% at 240 dead in November?

Is there a minimum dead weight for factories before they cut the price back - saying fat score and grade were ok?

Is there a cut off point in weight where the factory wont take them?

bob charles

ellewood wrote: »

Would they be a penalty on price if they didnt kill a certin weight?

Say ya had a bad year and had to off load them earlier

They killed 266kg dead, so, say they were back 10% at 240 dead in November?

Is there a minimum dead weight for factories before they cut the price back - saying fat score and grade were ok?

Is there a cut off point in weight where the factory wont take them?

well if they had enough of a fat score you will get them killed. Under 220kilos and your in butcher territory and then they mightnt want contentional.

The other point to remember is that the day the guy in the article took the cattle to the mart might have been a complete off day and if it was a normal day they *may* have made a hundred more which would have left little for finishing then. Cattle finisher wouldn't leave cattle in the mart after them if they could see a margin of over €80 a head for finishing

ellewood

bob charles wrote: »

well if they had enough of a fat score you will get them killed. Under 220kilos and your in butcher territory and then they mightnt want contentional.

The other point to remember is that the day the guy in the article took the cattle to the mart might have been a complete off day and if it was a normal day they *may* have made a hundred more which would have left little for finishing then. Cattle finisher would leave cattle in the mart after them if they could see a margin of over €80 a head for finishing

Would or wouldnt??:D

bob charles

ellewood wrote: »

Would or wouldnt??:D

corrected, and considering they would be more efficient that the weaning producer at finishing something doesnt add up to me

onyerbikepat

bob charles wrote: »

I wonder how much the exceptional backend of the year distorted the figures for these heifers. I wouldnt like to be facing into having heifers ready for slaugther in the month of December without have housing for them

I was out driving in the car today and the same taught passed my mind. There was no sudden charge to the factory last year, with sudden bad weather and all that. You have to consider all systems averaged over a number of years to get a clearer picture.