Potential Consequences of NSA spying to Ireland / Europe

bd0101

NSA and many other three letter agencies have been using US companies based in Ireland (and Europe), in order to collect data illegally. This discredits Ireland as a democratic, lawful and independent state, and demonstrates a highly degraded (or non-monitored) level of IT Security.

So my question is: Since US is -to a degree- affected by their own actions, how likely is it that Ireland and Europe will also face troubles? (e.g. investors prefering a PRISM-free country or service provider, against a PRISM-owned one).

Khannie

Well, I think US companies offering data services (think Google, Amazon) who are based in Ireland are going to suffer financially. I now just assume that my google docs, emails, amazon AWS servers, etc. are compromised. Sure you'd be mad not to.

I think if you were a big company using google for email, you'd be inclined to bring that back in house. I know some south american countries have voiced their choice to not use US based companies because of the whole PRISM scandal.

That may have knock on effects with regard to job creation here.

On the flip side though, non-US companies being used more frequently may be good news for a tech-centric nation like ours.

Dude111

Im sorry you guys are having your private lives invaded by these clowns......

syklops

bd0101 wrote: »

NSA and many other three letter agencies have been using US companies based in Ireland (and Europe), in order to collect data illegally. This discredits Ireland as a democratic, lawful and independent state, and demonstrates a highly degraded (or non-monitored) level of IT Security.

So my question is: Since US is -to a degree- affected by their own actions, how likely is it that Ireland and Europe will also face troubles? (e.g. investors prefering a PRISM-free country or service provider, against a PRISM-owned one).

What does a PRISM free country look like? If Ireland, an english speaking neutral country on the edge of western europe is no longer attractive due to PRISM, where would be attractive?

And I dont think the PRISM revelations discredit irish democracy. Why would it?

Manach

The issue on how legal the NSA type surveillance is within a European context would need to take into account the various EU directives (of which there are a few) on tech matters such as Data Protection and Privacy. AFAIK there are not secret courts that would allow the tapping of data, but there is usual sufficient wordings on the protection legislation that is enacted to allow escape clauses in the interests of national security.

bd0101

syklops wrote: »

What does a PRISM free country look like? If Ireland, an english speaking neutral country on the edge of western europe is no longer attractive due to PRISM, where would be attractive?

And I dont think the PRISM revelations discredit irish democracy. Why would it?

A PRISM-free country does not engage, assist, or allow snooping of its citizens. Ireland may be neutral, but being a hub for many US-companies and not having a storm over their heads tells something.

Democracy is discredited whenever basic human rights -such as privacy is- are violated.

It does not have to be imprisonment to feel restricted as a personality; when having an all state monitored life can achieve so much more.

bd0101

Manach wrote: »

The issue on how legal the NSA type surveillance is within a European context would need to take into account the various EU directives (of which there are a few) on tech matters such as Data Protection and Privacy. AFAIK there are not secret courts that would allow the tapping of data, but there is usual sufficient wordings on the protection legislation that is enacted to allow escape clauses in the interests of national security.

I could not agree more. We need uomo-centric driven laws, with meaning and clarity. No misinterpretations, No amnesty on US-data gathering!

bd0101

Khannie wrote: »

Well, I think US companies offering data services (think Google, Amazon) who are based in Ireland are going to suffer financially. I now just assume that my google docs, emails, amazon AWS servers, etc. are compromised. Sure you'd be mad not to.

I think if you were a big company using google for email, you'd be inclined to bring that back in house. I know some south american countries have voiced their choice to not use US based companies because of the whole PRISM scandal.

I have personally moved all my data back to a trusted provider, which does not reside to either of the intelligence alliance of five eyes.. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and USA

These five eyes have seen enough, it is time to blindfold them!

bd0101

No matter how many are the eyes that see - Europe (Ireland maybe?) should make a start and *blind* them all!

EU must review and revise the cooperation with US companies, impose stricter privacy requirements, and protect its citizens. If something had been shown from the Snowden case, is that US companies have very strong connections with NSA - involved in electronic espionage by the US services.

This must end - it is on every single persons responsibility to help this stop - why not go with boycott?

bd0101

theguardian.com/technology/2014/apr/29/us-court-microsoft-personal-data-emails-irish-server

Reading this article makes a very good point on this thread .. makes one wonder - would the reverse ever happen? An Irish court order being executed over the US? I seriously doubt. It is time that Europe and Ireland specifically show some "muscle" and protect its citizens! Until then, it is on our hands to .. keep hands off any company that disrespects our right to privacy.

Rucking_Fetard

This is back in Court on the 31st.

I'm actually curious why this is on going at all reading the PDF at the end of that^^^

The senior counsel for the Irish Supreme Court wrote in a recent filing that a US-Ireland "Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty" was the "efficient" avenue (PDF) for the US government to obtain the e-mail held on Microsoft's external servers.

Seems Ireland-US have well established ways (Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty) for just this sort of thing.

As long as Irish Sovereignty or Security is not Prejudiced, then refusal is very uncommon.


Edit: Irish Sovereignty or Security...lol, Shannon Airport.

http://www.shannonwatch.org/page/military-use-shannon-airport
US military use of Shannon puts Ireland ‘at risk’, says TD Clare Daly
Beyond the Law: the US Military at Shannon Airport

KittenSoft T-Roll

hmmm

bd0101 wrote: »

This discredits Ireland as a democratic, lawful and independent state, and demonstrates a highly degraded (or non-monitored) level of IT Security.

That's some stretch. The NSA is by far the most capable and powerful electronic monitoring service in the world, and there isn't a country capable of successfully defeating them, let alone Ireland (even if "we" tried).

This whole PRISM thing is ridiculously overblown. The Russians, Chinese, British, French, Israelis, Germans are all doing the same thing, and they're not about to stop just because Guardian readers have spilled their frapachinos in shock at finding out.

Recondite49

hmmm wrote: »

That's some stretch. The NSA is by far the most capable and powerful electronic monitoring service in the world, and there isn't a country capable of successfully defeating them, let alone Ireland (even if "we" tried).

This whole PRISM thing is ridiculously overblown. The Russians, Chinese, British, French, Israelis, Germans are all doing the same thing, and they're not about to stop just because Guardian readers have spilled their frapachinos in shock at finding out.

Neither do we have to give up and go live in a cave though surely? There are privacy tools which have been available for years which would allow ordinary people to avoid surveillance by programs like PRISM - for instance I have had a healthy exchange of gpg encrypted e-mails with people during that time, haven't lost a wink of sleep over it!

hmmm

Recondite49 wrote: »

There are privacy tools which have been available for years which would allow ordinary people to avoid surveillance by programs like PRISM - for instance I have had a healthy exchange of gpg encrypted e-mails with people during that time, haven't lost a wink of sleep over it!

The NSA aren't interested in "ordinary people", they are interested in gathering the maximum volume of metadata to target their more detailed efforts. The traffic patterns as to who is communicating using strong encryption would immediately draw NSA suspicions, and if they really wanted to intercept your comms there is any number of ways they could.

Not that you'd really have anything to worry about unless you were a direct threat to the US.

I'd be far more worried about the privacy implications of something like government attempts to impose mandatory filtering, or Garda requests for retained Internet or email traffic.

Recondite49

hmmm wrote: »

The NSA aren't interested in "ordinary people", they are interested in gathering the maximum volume of metadata to target their more detailed efforts. The traffic patterns as to who is communicating using strong encryption would immediately draw NSA suspicions, and if they really wanted to intercept your comms there is any number of ways they could.

Not that you'd really have anything to worry about unless you were a direct threat to the US.

I'd be far more worried about the privacy implications of something like government attempts to impose mandatory filtering, or Garda requests for retained Internet or email traffic.

If one thing is certain as revealed by Snowden himself is that encryption does work and it can foil the NSA. He released documents which showed they've been unable to compromise the basic structure of the Tor network, forcing them to try some more unorthodox methods like target people using an outdated version of Firefox, which is easily remedied (personally I use TAILS to access the Tor network but each to their own...).

I am very impatient with this attitude which says that we might as well give up because our data isn't safe, people may not believe 100% security is possible but then neither is it possible to observe everyone at any given time - I use a variation of the tor browser to mask my traffic for instance, so it's very difficult to tell from traffic analysis alone that I'm accessing the network.

In addition the e-mails I send are encrypted so much good may it do them if they decide to start intercepting data packets!

Rucking_Fetard

Microsoft ordered to produce overseas customer email addresses by US judge

They can appeal.

Recondite49

Rucking_Fetard wrote: »

Microsoft ordered to produce overseas customer email addresses by US judge

They can appeal.

Good to hear. Then again you wonder if a truly privacy conscious person would both use Microsoft Windows and provide their real e-mail address!

industrialhorse

Rucking_Fetard wrote: »

Microsoft ordered to produce overseas customer email addresses by US judge

They can appeal.

Yes but Microsoft are dealing with America and don't pay any tax in America so no appeal is going to help win them this case:(

Impetus

Why doesn't the Irish Government help Microsoft and others who want to store customer data in Ireland by passing a law requiring that all requests for traffic data or contents relating to data stored in Ireland must be covered by Irish judicial sign-off? Irrespective of the jurisdiction or domicile of the data centre operating entity.

Microsoft has been spending millions to protect its global business against the Snowden fallout - including this legal case http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/06/10/National-Security/Graphics/SDNY%20MSFT%20Brief.pdf

And they are not alone. Amazon (especially AWS), and probably Google are in the same boat. Every country has a right to pass laws to protect its sovereignty. If three letter agencies can bend the US legal system to rifle through data stored on computers situated in Ireland - it is no different to them launching an all out war against the country.

Losses to US industry are estimated to be between 22 and 180 billion USD over the next three years - ie about 10% of revenues. Ireland has a duty to stand up for companies who make substantial investments in the country.

http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-us-tech-firms-2014-7

Rucking_Fetard

industrialhorse wrote: »

Yes but Microsoft are dealing with America and don't pay any tax in America so no appeal is going to help win them this case:(

Just shy of $30 Billion they save by keeping Money off shore. Good.

Microsoft has revealed that it keeps $92.9billion 'permanently reinvested outside the U.S.' - meaning it has not paid $29.6billion in taxes.


The tech company said in a SEC filing 'As of June 30, 2014, we have not provided deferred U.S. income taxes or foreign withholding taxes on temporary differences of approximately $92.9 billion resulting from earnings for certain non-U.S. subsidiaries which are permanently reinvested outside the U.S.'
Microsoft noted that 'The unrecognized deferred tax liability associated with these temporary differences was approximately $29.6 billion at June 30, 2014.'


'Microsoft reported operating 10 subsidiaries in tax havens in 2007 in 2013, it disclosed only five,' the report said. 'During this same time period, the company increased the amount of money it held offshore from $6.1 billion to $76.4 billion in U.S. taxes. That implies that the company pays a tax rate of just 3 percent to foreign governments on those profits, suggesting that most of the cash is booked to tax havens.'

Wasn't their a big hullabulo about them paying less than 12% here a few years back and it was denied...or something??


Anyway, the Judge has sided with the prosecutors and ordered Microsoft to hand over the Data on the Irish Servers ANNNNNND, they're not giving it, Fair Play Microsoft. Their pushing for their appeal. No sign of Ireland/Europe to grow some nuts yet.:mad:

http://windowsitpro.com/paul-thurrotts-wininfo/microsoft-defies-court-order-will-not-give-emails-us-government

Impetus wrote: »

Why doesn't the Irish Government help Microsoft and others who want to store customer data in Ireland by passing a law requiring that all requests for traffic data or contents relating to data stored in Ireland must be covered by Irish judicial sign-off? Irrespective of the jurisdiction or domicile of the data centre operating entity.

Microsoft has been spending millions to protect its global business against the Snowden fallout - including this legal case http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/06/10/National-Security/Graphics/SDNY%20MSFT%20Brief.pdf

And they are not alone. Amazon (especially AWS), and probably Google are in the same boat. Every country has a right to pass laws to protect its sovereignty. If three letter agencies can bend the US legal system to rifle through data stored on computers situated in Ireland - it is no different to them launching an all out war against the country.

Losses to US industry are estimated to be between 22 and 180 billion USD over the next three years - ie about 10% of revenues. Ireland has a duty to stand up for companies who make substantial investments in the country.

http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-us-tech-firms-2014-7

+1

US is gone mad with Power but are No where to be seen when they're needed.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/21/syria-chemical-attack-assad-report

Recondite49

Impetus wrote: »

Why doesn't the Irish Government help Microsoft and others who want to store customer data in Ireland by passing a law requiring that all requests for traffic data or contents relating to data stored in Ireland must be covered by Irish judicial sign-off? Irrespective of the jurisdiction or domicile of the data centre operating entity.

Microsoft has been spending millions to protect its global business against the Snowden fallout - including this legal case http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/06/10/National-Security/Graphics/SDNY%20MSFT%20Brief.pdf

And they are not alone. Amazon (especially AWS), and probably Google are in the same boat. Every country has a right to pass laws to protect its sovereignty. If three letter agencies can bend the US legal system to rifle through data stored on computers situated in Ireland - it is no different to them launching an all out war against the country.

Losses to US industry are estimated to be between 22 and 180 billion USD over the next three years - ie about 10% of revenues. Ireland has a duty to stand up for companies who make substantial investments in the country.

http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-us-tech-firms-2014-7

Well said Impetus. It's at times like these I wish we had a real life offshore Data Haven in the same way tax havens exist - I imagine you guys have read Cryptonomicon, it can't happen too soon in my view!

Impetus

Recondite49 wrote: »

Well said Impetus. It's at times like these I wish we had a real life offshore Data Haven in the same way tax havens exist - I imagine you guys have read Cryptonomicon, it can't happen too soon in my view!

To some extent I would agree with what you are saying - in terms of concept. However a reasonable level of taxation spent in accordance with the wishes of the population, in an efficient manner is legitimate. Spying electronically on the global population is not legitimate. In my view providing legal safeguards to those who offer secure protected data storage and transaction processing is legitimate - in the same way as the Swiss brought in banking secrecy to aid the Jews who were terrorized and murdered by Hitler & Co.

Electronic eavesdropping on the masses has become the new Hitler era of the 21st century. Up to the late 1980s one had to get a license to own a typewriter in the DDR (East Germany) - which process required the so called "authorities" to finger-print each character on one's new typewriter, and keep a record of the typeface on file - as if every typewriter owner was a criminal. If one typed anything that the powers that be did not like, they could use the "finger print" evidence of the characters on paper to trace it back to you. Abusive tactics like this caused the Berlin Wall to fall in 1989.

If companies like Microsoft, Amazon and Google etc are operating in the interest of their customers, they will locate their cloud facilities in countries that protect privacy of the normal user. This does not mean that a country should refuse to provide traffic data on someone who makes a credible threat to say "blow up the White House" or whatever.

Babies are not born "terrorists". In most cases they become so called terrorists due to the denial of human rights in their neck of the woods, as they perceive it. And privacy of information is a human right, which must be respected. Just as the Red Cross and MSF (Medicine Sans Frontières) operate to care for physically injured people.

Recondite49

Impetus wrote: »

To some extent I would agree with what you are saying - in terms of concept. However a reasonable level of taxation spent in accordance with the wishes of the population, in an efficient manner is legitimate. Spying electronically on the global population is not legitimate. In my view providing legal safeguards to those who offer secure protected data storage and transaction processing is legitimate - in the same way as the Swiss brought in banking secrecy to aid the Jews who were terrorized and murdered by Hitler & Co.

Electronic eavesdropping on the masses has become the new Hitler era of the 21st century. Up to the late 1980s one had to get a license to own a typewriter in the DDR (East Germany) - which process required the so called "authorities" to finger-print each character on one's new typewriter, and keep a record of the typeface on file - as if every typewriter owner was a criminal. If one typed anything that the powers that be did not like, they could use the "finger print" evidence of the characters on paper to trace it back to you. Abusive tactics like this caused the Berlin Wall to fall in 1989.

If companies like Microsoft, Amazon and Google etc are operating in the interest of their customers, they will locate their cloud facilities in countries that protect privacy of the normal user. This does not mean that a country should refuse to provide traffic data on someone who makes a credible threat to say "blow up the White House" or whatever.

Babies are not born "terrorists". In most cases they become so called terrorists due to the denial of human rights in their neck of the woods, as they perceive it. And privacy of information is a human right, which must be respected. Just as the Red Cross and MSF (Medicine Sans Frontières) operate to care for physically injured people.

Impetus, you raise some excellent points ; sadly Godwin's Law has now been invoked! :-D

It seems to me that the only way to be safe would be to give client's control of their own data so that they can request to have it removed at any time. That way if it is subpoenaed, then they can choose to remove it before this happens.

An alternative when it comes to private data would of course be to encrypt it client side. I know SpiderOak and Wuala are two popular services (although we have to take our word for it that the data is indeed irretrievable without the correct password as their software is proprietary.)

As you say though I think it behooves the gods of Google, Amazon etc. to make sure their data is located somewhere which won't comply with US subpoenas, it seems doubtful to me that if the servers were located in Outer Mongolia and being managed by a separate company that the US Marshals would come abseiling in.

Recondite49

...At the risk of veering off topic, I have to say that 41% tax on my share dividends is not so much legitimate as daylight robbery in my view, and don't get me started on the Universal Social Charge. It's for this reason I invest what small savings I have offshore where there is no Capital Gains Tax - this is lawful provided you declare this on your tax return. I know taxes exist to help the poor and needy but I am both!

RainyDay

Recondite49 wrote: »

for this reason I invest what small savings I have offshore where there is no Capital Gains Tax - this is lawful provided

At risk of verring further off topic, but how did you work out that there is no CGT for offshore investments?

From http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cgt/cgt-faqs.html

All forms of property are assets for CGT purposes whether situated in or outside the State.

Recondite49

RainyDay wrote: »

At risk of verring further off topic, but how did you work out that there is no CGT for offshore investments?

From http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cgt/cgt-faqs.html

Mainly because I have an excellent Financial Advisor, I pay no CGT on my investments although when I retire I'll have to pay tax on the interest.

If you want more information please feel free to send me a message, as you said perhaps this isn't the best thread for this.

RainyDay

Recondite49 wrote: »

Mainly because I have an excellent Financial Advisor, I pay no CGT on my investments although when I retire I'll have to pay tax on the interest.

If you want more information please feel free to send me a message, as you said perhaps this isn't the best thread for this.

Just wouldn't want people thinking that overseas investments were exempt from CGT, because they're not - regardless of what tax advisor you have.

Recondite49

RainyDay wrote: »

Just wouldn't want people thinking that overseas investments were exempt from CGT, because they're not - regardless of what tax advisor you have.

As with everything it depends on how you structure it.

It is possible to do it legally.

As I said though I think if you want to discuss this further we should carry on in a separate thread as we've veered off topic.

RainyDay

Recondite49 wrote: »

As with everything it depends on how you structure it.

It is possible to do it legally.

As I said though I think if you want to discuss this further we should carry on in a separate thread as we've veered off topic.

The Revenue rules tell you what is exempt and what is not. Off-shore investments are not exempt.

Recondite49

RainyDay wrote: »

The Revenue rules tell you what is exempt and what is not. Off-shore investments are not exempt.

Yes, I'm very impressed at you repeating what you found on Google, however I have a Chartered Accountant.

Of course no doubt you think you know better, but if so please put it in a private message or another thread. This is quickly turning into a Yes it is / No it isn't discussion and it's not one you're going to win!

RainyDay

Recondite49 wrote: »

however I have a Chartered Accountant.

Ooohooo that's me told then, as everyone knows that Chartered Accountants never a) bend tax rules or b) make mistakes or c) are misunderstood by their clients.

Best of luck with your investments. I look forward to seeing you in the Revenue list (along with your Chartered Accountant) in a few years time.

Recondite49

RainyDay wrote: »

Ooohooo that's me told then, .

Yes, you have been told. If you knew how to do anything but copy and paste from the Revenue website, you'd know that there are plenty of legal tax exemptions under Irish Law.

So why don't you stop trying to measure dicks with me and maybe look into it? You never know you might save yourself some money if you can leave your ego at the door.

Recondite49

I have just texted my Mum's cousin (who also incidentally is my Accountant), he's suggested I bet anyone 1,000 Euro that I'm right and there are perfectly legal ways to avoid Capital Gains Tax on your investments under Irish Law - certainly would be one way to beef up my portfolio!

Any takers? I'd need acceptance of the wager in writing of course.

p.s Because I am a nice person I think it's worth asking anyone considering the wager to look up Small Self Administered Pension schemes... these are exempt from both income tax and Capital Gains Tax, although many people may find that it's more cost effective to stick with their employer's pension scheme.

A few Irish companies which run such schemes can be found here, and here.

RainyDay

Ooh so now we've switched from talking about 'investments' to talking about 'pensions'. That's nice.

Let me go and cut and paste the Revenue rules on pensions for you.

You might like to go back and edit your post about where you say that off-shore investments have no CGT. You know that's wrong, and it's got nothing to do with pensions red herring that you've brought up now.

And give my love to your cousin.

Recondite49

RainyDay wrote: »

Ooh so now we've switched from talking about 'investments' to talking about 'pensions'. That's nice.

Let me go and cut and paste the Revenue rules on pensions for you.

You might like to go back and edit your post about where you say that off-shore investments have no CGT. You know that's wrong, and it's got nothing to do with pensions red herring that you've brought up now.

And give my love to your cousin.

The idea of these schemes which you'd know if you'd taken the time to google them than try to get one over on me is to provide an investment vehicle - you invest money which is in turn paid in to the investments of your choice hence no CGT or income tax.

Enough with the butthurt, please just do your research before your post in future sweetheart.

wandererz

Some years ago I was at a BBQ at a friends home near Limerick.
I got to speaking to his father-in-law who was a retired prison officer.

This was just when Ireland was about to implement it's data gathering laws.
Most people didn't have a clue about it. The others just didn't give a damn.

I tried to explain the dangers of giving up these basic rights to freedom of expression.

The response I got back was "if you've done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear."
Now we see the result.

Hell, why not give it all away and simply become yes-men.

RainyDay

Recondite49 wrote: »

The idea of these schemes which you'd know if you'd taken the time to google them than try to get one over on me is to provide an investment vehicle - you invest money which is in turn paid in to the investments of your choice hence no CGT or income tax.

Thanks for the effort, but really, do you think you're teaching anyone anything new here?

You can wrap up your investment or your spin all you like. The fact remains that putting an investment offshore does not avoid CGT. The Revenue lists of tax defaulters are full of accountants, and folks who were advised by accountants, maybe even some who were advised by Chartered Accountants. If you want tax advice, get a tax advisor. They're called 'Chartered Tax Advisors', not Chartered Accountants.

Recondite49

RainyDay wrote: »

Thanks for the effort, but really, do you think you're teaching anyone anything new here?

You can wrap up your investment or your spin all you like. The fact remains that putting an investment offshore does not avoid CGT. The Revenue lists of tax defaulters are full of accountants, and folks who were advised by accountants, maybe even some who were advised by Chartered Accountants. If you want tax advice, get a tax advisor. They're called 'Chartered Tax Advisors', not Chartered Accountants.

Christ you are a sore loser aren't you?

Let that butthurt flow through you... :-D

Khannie

Lads....this is the biggest load of nonsense I've had to deal with in an age.

RainyDay

Recondite49 wrote: »

Christ you are a sore loser aren't you?

Let that butthurt flow through you... :-D

I got over the winning/losing thing somewhere around 1998. It's really about truth and untruth. You said that offshore investments are not liable for CGT. That is an untruth, plain and simple.

You can keep trolling as long as like (or as long as the mods don't notice), but that won't change the facts.

Khannie

Was that last post not clear enough? DROP THIS IMMEDIATELY.

Khannie

Ah lads. This is absolutely ridiculous. You both had to get the last word in after I'd made it very clear that you were to drop it immediately. Now you've left me with no choice but to give you both a break from the forum. :-/

Impetus

Apple and Cisco file memoranda in support of Microsoft in US court case about Microsoft's liability to US government entities to handover customer data / communications related stuff, held in Ireland.

http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/applebriefinremicrosft.pdf

Verizon says a decision in favour of US gov power to grab data stored in Ireland without going through Irish court system would produce "dramatic conflict with foreign data protection laws."

http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/verizonamicus.pdf

There are zillions of EUR to be made on secure cloud storage, if the Irish government would pass fresh laws to firewall same. If some country wants to discover the contents of some Irish hard drive (or SSD), they should be required to go through the Irish legal system. There could be a very efficient legal process put in place to adjudicate on these matters, and for data to be handed over in the event of a real crime. One might call it preventing "pre-crime"* creep.

*http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181689/

It would also help solidify Ireland's international broadband connectivity by making the place more important on the global map for low latency, high speed connections from all over. Add to that the cost advantages of Ireland's already lowest in OECD international bandwidth prices (that are not carried over to the victim consumer), and the need for almost zero air conditioning in Ireland's cold climate, and it becomes a natural industry to develop. It would create a virtuous circle. Ireland, being a neutral country is an ideal jurisdiction. So long as gov.ie veto's any EU attempts to stifle the country's data security sovereignty.

Rucking_Fetard

Rucking_Fetard wrote: »

Anyway, the Judge has sided with the prosecutors and ordered Microsoft to hand over the Data on the Irish Servers ANNNNNND, they're not giving it, Fair Play Microsoft. Their pushing for their appeal. No sign of Ireland/Europe to grow some nuts yet.:mad:

Annnnnd they are now in Contempt of Court, appeal is still ongoing.

Finally a comment from someone here,

The Government has expressed serious concern about a US court order for Microsoft to hand over emails held on servers in Ireland to US prosecutors, saying it would create significant legal uncertainty about data protection in Europe.

Data Protection Minister Dara Murphy said the Government would be open to a request for the emails under the 2001 Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty, which governs the transfer of information in criminal cases.

But he described as "objectionable" the process being used, whereby a US court was making a direct order about data held in another jurisdiction.
"The possible implications of this ruling are very serious for Ireland and the European Union," Mr Murphy said.


"Compliance with the warrant may result in Microsoft, and any other US companies with operations in the EU which are served with such warrants in the future, being in breach of the Irish Data Protection Acts and the EU Data Protection Directive," he said.


The prospect of emails held in Ireland being handed over has drawn concern from technology companies - fearful of losing revenue from foreign customers worried that US law enforcement might win broad powers to seize their data.

US Gov threatened Yahoo with $250,000 a day fines if they didn't hand over User Info leading up to the setting up of Prism, newly released Docs show.

How do these fines work? What can they do if a Company doesn't pay them? Could Yahoo not bail out to...somewhere...though that has it's own downsides if they could.

Outcome of this is getting bigger...EU will have to jump in now.

Impetus

Rucking_Fetard wrote: »

Annnnnd they are now in Contempt of Court, appeal is still ongoing.

Finally a comment from someone here,

US Gov threatened Yahoo with $250,000 a day fines if they didn't hand over User Info leading up to the setting up of Prism, newly released Docs show.

How do these fines work? What can they do if a Company doesn't pay them? Could Yahoo not bail out to...somewhere...though that has it's own downsides if they could.

Outcome of this is getting bigger...EU will have to jump in now.

Yet another reason for a US corporation to "invert". In this case no take-over is necessary. Just move to a jurisdiction where the "government" does not rely on massive fines, and use the money to pay the cost of delivering worse than useless government.

Baidu (百度), China's largest search engine is incorporated in the Cayman Islands, and its shares are listed on Nasdaq (ticker BIDU). All media companies need to do much more to wake up their user base populations to mass spying, theft of personal information etc. No government has any right to engage in "mind reading". Pre-crime crap, when it is more likely to be a journalist or writer doing research for a story.

And while it shouldn't really matter in a well run democratic jurisdiction if a gov thinks somebody in engaging in "unhealthy research", it becomes a big problem in American type societies where fifty cops, and two army tanks arrive at your front door at 05h00 in the morning just because of some keywords you used in Google etc. Not to mention innocent people dieing.

Rucking_Fetard

industrialhorse wrote: »

Yes but Microsoft are dealing with America and don't pay any tax in America so no appeal is going to help win them this case:(

New Global Plan Would Crack Down On Corporate Tax Avoidance

Reuters reports that plans for a major rewriting of international tax rules have been unveiled by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) that could eliminate structures that have allowed companies like Google and Amazon to shave billions of dollars off their tax bills. For more than 50 years, the OECD's work on international taxation has been focused on ensuring companies are not taxed twice on the same profits (and thereby hampering trade and limit global growth). But companies have been using such treaties to ensure profits are not taxed anywhere. A Reuters investigation last year found that three quarters of the 50 biggest U.S. technology companies channeled revenues from European sales into low tax jurisdictions like Ireland and Switzerland, rather than reporting them nationally.

For example, search giant Google takes advantage of tax treaties to channel more than $8 billion in untaxed profits out of Europe and Asia each year and into a subsidiary that is tax resident in Bermuda, which has no income tax. "We are putting an end to double non-taxation," says OECD head of tax Pascal Saint-Amans.For the recommendations to actually become binding, countries will have to encode them in their domestic laws or amend their bilateral tax treaties. Even if they do pass, these changes are likely 5-10 years away from going into effect.

bd0101

I cannot know how truth that report is, but it is worthy checking out:

www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2014

There are many vendors missing from the chart - I would personally opt for a non-US based provider, with very little visibility - chances are such choices have less attention from both hackers and Government Agencies.