'Embracing minority status ' vrs not becoming part of the gay community.. A MUST SEE

Lou.m

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdm4IRqrzI

I hear all the time that some gay people sometimes feel they don't go to things like pride not because they don't support it. But they do not want it to be the center of their lives they also don't want to put themselves to the side or on the fringe. That they are part of the mainstream culture. And that the gay community can sometimes feel like isolating ones self further.

But I was thinking about this.

I really appreciate those who prefer to simply be a gay in the wider world. It is a very individual choice.

But I was listening to what this girl was saying and I thought it was brilliant. Their is nothing to fear from embracing minority status. We are brought up to be the majority. But the truth is especially as you get older it becomes clear we are not. There is no loss of power in admitting this or embracing it. It does not push us to the side of society at all. Being a minority is not isolating or pushing you aside.


I sometimes hear some gay people say that they have nothing less in common with straight people than they have with gay people and nothing more in common with gay people than straight people. But there is one thing you have in common your sexual orientation. It might not be everything about you but it is a thing about you. And to live a happy full life you need emotional development. You need to use those muscles. Otherwise you delay a lot of emotional development and not just romantically.

I think some people are afraid to get involved in the community because they are afraid to embrace minority status. They see embracing their otherness as a bad thing. Or they even refuse to admit their otherness. But it is there. There is no point in hiding from it. They are afraid they will not 'fit in the gay community' but the truth is whether or not you know it you are still a part of it simply be being gay.

We are brought up to be straight but we are not.


What she said i felt was apt for people in Ireland. Irish people are a homogenous majority not used to finding a minority within itself. We are used to sometimes seeing ourselves as one maybe abroad. But here is a point when gay Irish people go abroad we may find ourselves hanging out in Irish bars ..but also gay bars. We are a part of another community too.

I am not sure but This sounds like the familiar divide between people who take an assimilationist vs a cultural diverse approach to integration, In assimilation as I think of it, sameness is valued and differences are either denied or overcome. Assimilation is considered to be fully achieved when the differences can no longer be seen between the groups. But our difference was not really 'seen' anyway. But it is experienced by us. We are wired differently.

Assimilation would be where they basically reject differences where they leave behind all of their culture in order to become part of wider society. But gay is not a culture. It is orientation.

It would be harder to find people to date if you were not a part of the gay community.

The LGBT community is not all the same and obviously it's members are happy members of other communities too.

Assimilationists say that LGBT communities can exclude straight people without meaning to and that further isolates the LGBT community.

But the truth is 'PRIDE' is for straight people too I feel! It is for people who celebrate who they are and their love and diversity without shame.


Embracing otherness does not mean throwing away your humanity and what you have in common with the majority.

No one has the right to define a gay identity for everyone else of course. But the truth is if you are a shy person. The gay community makes it easier to meet potential mates.

Straight people are not necessarily ever going to be completely comfortable with public affection from gay couples that is on parity with straight couples. I like the "Safe Places" idea. I don't like militancy but I definitely wish I had got in contact with the gay community earlier i think it would have made things easier and made me feel more 'normal' in my normal life strangely.


I remember ages ago I went to the George. I am a femme girl who is either bi or lesbian ( still figuring it out) and the george was full of guys and i got intimidated and ran out Even though they were gay ( or I assumed so) it 'felt' as intimidating as if they were straight. They were all big guys happy laughing friendly and confident. I was little confused tiny straight looking me.


I think sometimes some gay people feel the gay community is intimidating to them because they feel they will not fit in with what their perceptions are of it.

I am choosing to open my heart and my life up though.


I have told my parents that I am attracted to women and unsure of my attraction to men. I have told them it is a possibility I am bi or gay and that it is an impossibility that I am straight. They were AMAZING

My brother also knows.

They have not put pressure on me to put a label on it.

I said to my dad that I worried it would make him think I was not as 'sweet' or as 'goodie two shoes' as before but he said he knows many fine kind gay people and has for years and has a lot of respect for them.

SO THERE 'GAYNESS' MY DAD THINKS YOU ARE A GOOD SORT IN GENERAL!

And he has very high moral standards!

I have always considered myself pretty liberal and appreciative of diversity but not confident enough really. I have acceptance and love for all within LGBT and the wider straight community. I share my humanity in common with them all.

I respect those who see it differently as part of the wider community or 'different like everyone else' etc or feel they might not have anything in common with the LBGT community.

I am going to navigate this journey through the community as just Lou. Cuz I am a lovely person

Ok this post went off on a tangent but there you go. :P

HUGS!

bodice ripper

I didn't watch the video, but you post does kind of read like a fancy way of saying gay people who reject pride and the gay community are suffering from internalised homophobia or are in denial. It would not be the first time I have heard that, and I still disagree. Perhaps we know ourselves and what does and does not speak to our experience.

baby and crumble

bodice ripper wrote: »

I didn't watch the video, but you post does kind of read like a fancy way of saying gay people who reject pride and the gay community are suffering from internalised homophobia or are in denial. It would not be the first time I have heard that, and I still disagree. Perhaps we know ourselves and what does and does not speak to our experience.

I don't know if I agree with that reading of the post. I think it boils down to a desire to be 'in power' or a part of the dominant pack. That's nothing about personality, it's a human/ animal desire for the most part. Nobody really wants to be in a group that is seen as "less than" or has fewer rights.

Thing is that there are lots of minority groups in Ireland, and as someone who is actually a part of quite a few of the 'less obvious' ones (Not Catholic, not a drinker, a butch woman...) it can be tough sometimes. It would be easier to (as some of my friends have) let people assume I know what they're talking about when they talk about Mass and confession and Hail Mary's and what have you. Or tell people there's vodka in my coke. Or dress more to fit in to what people think of as 'woman'.

I don't think this particular debate is about internalised phobias at all. It's just about our human nature to not want to be part of the group that's playing catch up.

bodice ripper

baby and crumble wrote: »

I don't know if I agree with that reading of the post. I think it boils down to a desire to be 'in power' or a part of the dominant pack. That's nothing about personality, it's a human/ animal desire for the most part. Nobody really wants to be in a group that is seen as "less than" or has fewer rights.

Oh yes, I forgot; internalised homophobia, denial, and selling out. Oddly, are things I have seen in response to being bisexual as well. Is it so hard to believe some lgbt people just don't find that "the community" holds anything for them?

In fact, on rereading you whole post, I genuinely find it condescending. I amn't trying to start a fight, but seriously, can't you see it?

Annasopra

bodice ripper wrote: »

Is it so hard to believe some lgbt people just don't find that "the community" holds anything for them?

No not really.

I don't quite understand any of the other points you are making at all. Actually I do understand them just not in the context of the posts you are responding to.

bodice ripper

mango salsa wrote: »

No not really.

I don't quite understand any of the other points you are making at all.

Which is fine. And I won't assume it's because you are taking the easy way out.

Annasopra

bodice ripper wrote: »

Which is fine. And I won't assume it's because you are taking the easy way out.

I'm not taking the easy way out. I just interpreted the other posts very differently to you and don't quite understand how or why interpreted them the way you did.
I'll read back through this tomorrow after I've had some sleep.

poundapunnet

baby and crumble wrote: »

I don't know if I agree with that reading of the post. I think it boils down to a desire to be 'in power' or a part of the dominant pack. That's nothing about personality, it's a human/ animal desire for the most part. Nobody really wants to be in a group that is seen as "less than" or has fewer rights.

Thing is that there are lots of minority groups in Ireland, and as someone who is actually a part of quite a few of the 'less obvious' ones (Not Catholic, not a drinker, a butch woman...) it can be tough sometimes. It would be easier to (as some of my friends have) let people assume I know what they're talking about when they talk about Mass and confession and Hail Mary's and what have you. Or tell people there's vodka in my coke. Or dress more to fit in to what people think of as 'woman'.

I don't think this particular debate is about internalised phobias at all. It's just about our human nature to not want to be part of the group that's playing catch up.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time I have no problem identifying as part of the minority as far as my sexual attractions go, but that's as far as it goes. There are assumptions that people make on you based on that, and the LGBT minority can be as guilty of that as the straight majority. I march in pride because I think it's important and I'm not ashamed of being gay. But a lack of shame doesn't necessarily mean pride. I'm not proud, any more than I'm proud to be Irish, white, a woman, an English speaker, right-handed. It's just a thing, I didn't pick it, I didn't put any effort in, I don't care about it apart from the relatively few aspects of my life it effects.

But in saying that, I'm in a fairly lucky subset of the minority. I have parents who don't care about it (don't come from a Catholic background), I'm young enough and middle-class enough never to have experienced any serious prejudice over my sexuality, and I'm a fairly femme looking girl. I can understand how people not in my situation would be into really identifying with the minority and having fought not to be ashamed want to stand up and count themselves as out and proud. It's just not anything I'm interested in really. More power to people who are.

baby and crumble

bodice ripper wrote: »

Oh yes, I forgot; internalised homophobia, denial, and selling out. Oddly, are things I have seen in response to being bisexual as well. Is it so hard to believe some lgbt people just don't find that "the community" holds anything for them?

In fact, on rereading you whole post, I genuinely find it condescending. I amn't trying to start a fight, but seriously, can't you see it?

Where did I talk about internalised homophobia, denial or selling out in my post? I'm sorry if my comments sound condescending to you, I don't mean them to be. I was just responding to your post.

Lou.m

bodice ripper wrote: »

I didn't watch the video, but you post does kind of read like a fancy way of saying gay people who reject pride and the gay community are suffering from internalised homophobia or are in denial. It would not be the first time I have heard that, and I still disagree. Perhaps we know ourselves and what does and does not speak to our experience.

That was not what I was saying at all. Nor do I believe that at all. I think there is a huge diff between people who do not go to pride or interact with the gay community because it is not for them and people who disapprove of it.

The trouble is that many people who are gay and not apart of the community do so for the wrong reasons sometimes and not the right reasons. Also I don't think I would want to date someone either straight or gay who did not have any gay friends. I often wonder what happens when someone who is not apart of LGBT dates someone who is very much in it.

I think what I was saying is that some people who might like to get to know more gay people do not because of their stance.

I'm not proud, any more than I'm proud to be Irish, white, a woman, an English speaker, right-handed. It's just a thing, I didn't pick it, I didn't put any effort in, I don't care about it apart from the relatively few aspects of my life it effects.

But in saying that, I'm in a fairly lucky subset of the minority. I have parents who don't care about it (don't come from a Catholic background), I'm young enough and middle-class enough never to have experienced any serious prejudice over my sexuality, and I'm a fairly femme looking girl.

I'm young enough and middle-class enough never to have experienced any serious prejudice over my sexuality, and I'm a fairly femme looking girl. I can understand how people not in my situation would be into really identifying with the minority and having fought not to be ashamed want to stand up and count themselves as out and proud. It's just not anything I'm interested in really. More power to people who are.

That does kind of sound elitist and condescending though. I am not saying you are that way or mean to be. But to me you seem to be saying that LGBT is not any of those things. As in it is not for middle class femme white girls. I feel sometimes people do not interact with LGBT because of the preconceptions they have about other people. Some gay people are socially conservative in other ways and that is fine but it sometimes stops them from meeting and socializing particularly in later life. For gay people in their later years after the clubbing age is over it will be harder to meet other gay people without LGBT I think.

I am a middle class femme white girl. The reason I made the post was for saying not that I want minority status but just that interacting with the minority I am a part of would have actually made meeting and dating easier.

I am curious as to how gay people meet other gay people to date without interacting with the community a little?

I have no issue with people not interacting with LGBT for the right reasons, as a personal choice that's fine. I don't think that just because it is not for them personally that they look down on it or outright disapprove.

And everyone tends to find a part of it that fits them anyway I like the sports groups :-)

poundapunnet

Lou.m wrote: »

That does kind of sound elitist and condescending though. I am not saying you are that way or mean to be. But to me you seem to be saying that LGBT is not any of those things. As in it is not for middle class femme white girls.

Yeah I see how it could come across that way, tbh, I'm just saying that LGBT isn't a category I feel like I fit into more than a lot of other categories, and I'm in a good position to be able to say that. Sure I like to post on boards like these, I like hanging out with my lesbian friends, I read sites like autostraddle, it's just not something I think about very much. And that's thanks to things I have no control over, I very rarely have to think about the fact that I'm gay.

I am a middle class femme white girl. The reason I made the post was for saying not that I want minority status but just that interacting with the minority I am a part of would have actually made meeting and dating easier.

I am curious as to how gay people meet other gay people to date without interacting with the community a little?

when I was younger, meeting and dating people would have been a bigger priority, and I interacted with the LGBT community in my city a bit more. But I found that I had no more in common with them than the film-loving community, the weed smoking community, the feminist community, the animal community, the vegetarian community. You have that one thing in common with them and nothing guaranteed beyond that. And the older I get, the less I'm bothered (I'm 24 btw). I've had two girlfriends, several random shags or f-buddies, I met them either through gaydargirls or just by going about my life and taking the risk of getting rejected. It works for me, and that's as far as my authority to comment on the situation extends, like I say, not judging anyone else.

And everyone tends to find a part of it that fits them anyway I like the sports groups :-)

See, I wouldn't get into a "white people film lovers" group, or a "right handed vegetarians" group, just like I wouldn't get into a "LGBT hill-walking" group. If I'm specifically looking for a girlfriend, which I rarely am, I go to online dating sites; and if I'm looking for a hook-up I've been around hippie party scenes for most of my life where you can go somewhere that's not specifically LGBT and get lucky easily.

It's not that I DON'T identify with being LGBT, it's not that I wouldn't tell anyone that I'm gay.

I dunno. Interesting thread anyway, it's made me think about my attitudes.

Aard

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make OP. And can't help but agree with Bodice Ripper, and think that your post is a dolled-up version of "you're either with us or against us". Perhaps I'm wrong.

bodice ripper

Lou-m, I am not trying to start ****, and I think your post is heartfelt and with the best of intentions. Baby and Crumble and Mango Salsa, if you can't see how Baby's post could be found condescending, I really don't think I can make it any clearer. I would even entertain the notion that perhaps you are being deliberately obtuse, or that defensiveness is leading you to take a polarised position without reading.

Ambersky

In relation to the question of what is a community and whether people see themselves as no more part of the LGBT community than any other kind of community they can mention that also seems to have no real relevance or value to them as poundapunnet said

the film-loving community, the weed smoking community, the feminist community, the animal community, the vegetarian community

There are many others who do value community groups and community cultural educational and celebratory events. If you dont like going to such events dont go and if you dont want to celebrate those events or groups dont go.

Ive gone to St Patricks day parades abroad where people celebrated their Irish heritage. Ive been to Caribbean cultural events in Canada. Members of the Irish Asian community organise yearly events in Dublin now. Members of the Irish Traveller community have their own centers and organise events, plays and outreach services. Various religious groups organise their community activities celebrations meetups and events. Local communities have centers and some communities have meetings to see what they can do for members of their community in terms of needs, social activities and a sense of pride in those communities. All kinds of minority groups organise activities and events and it often helps members of those communities build links with one another, have pride in their cultural heritage, it can help individuals understand and fight against any harassment or put downs they experience within the wider community and people sometimes just have fun.

The idea that some people may be reluctant to join in on events organised for members of a minority group which has at times been the subject of public ridicule as well as legal discrimination and even physical violence is hardly a surprise or a particularly revolutionary idea. The idea that some people may not want to associate themselves as belonging to a group which has official minority status is also hardly surprising. Suggesting to anyone who feels that way that maybe they might actually have fun if they go along is hardly an insult. If you yourself have other reasons for not wanting to join in on LGBT events and dont see yourself as part of that community well fine the OP and the video is not saying that not wanting to be seen as part of a minority is the Only Reason people dont see themselves as part of the LGBT community.

I dont see the point those who are suggesting that the OP and the video is displaying an attitude about it. Why not just let the idea be and allow that it might be relavent to some people, maybe not you but some people. Posters have already said they think its fine if others dont want to see themselves as part of a LGBT community but if they are staying away because they dont want to be seen as part of a minority well here is one womans experience of letting that idea go.

bodice ripper

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm not taking the easy way out. I just interpreted the other posts very differently to you and don't quite understand how or why interpreted them the way you did.
I'll read back through this tomorrow after I've had some sleep.

Which was my point. It would be unfair to assume your opinion was based on you "drinking the koolaid", and a desire to belong to a particular group.

But this is what I ( and people who feel like I do...) am being accused of. And it get old. And if I am honest, it is *actually* one of the reasons I do not seek out interaction with lgbt groups more often.

Ambersky

Which was my point. It would be unfair to assume your opinion was based on you "drinking the koolaid", and a desire to belong to a particular group.

But this is what I ( and people who feel like I do...) am being accused of. And it get old. And if I am honest, it is *actually* one of the reasons I do not seek out interaction with lgbt groups more often.

What? I honestly dont understand and how is this thread about you (or people who feel like you do) its not personal. Ive just written quite a lot saying just that

bodice ripper

Ambersky wrote: »

What? I honestly dont understand and how is this thread about you its not personal. Ive just written quite a lot saying just that

That's why I wasn't quoting you in the post.


I didn't say the thread is about me. It's alright for me to say "I disagree" without it turning into "well not everything is about you". This is exactly what I am talking about. For something wonderful and liberating, some people sure are defensive about pride/gay community.

Seriously, I am trying to earnestly discuss a topic because I think discourse is more useful than dismissing out of hand.

Ambersky

bodce ripper said
But this is what I ( and people who feel like I do...) am being accused of

Thats what I mean about its not personal and its not about you or people who feel like you do because you just said in this quote that you are being accused of something.
Im saying I dont hear you being accused of anything or that the OP or video are not allowing for people who dont want to be part of a LGBT community or to attend such events for reasons other than not wanting to be part of a minority group.
Why cant not wanting to be a part of a minority group be some peoples reasons for not wanting to be a part of an LGBT community and why cant people look at that without being told they have an attitude. Sure others have other reasons and thats fine too.

Bodice ripper I dont think you are being dismissed but I think you are the one dismissing by accusing others of having an attitude.
You said in your first post that you had not watched the video but you came right in with the first comment anyway saying

I didn't watch the video, but you post does kind of read like a fancy way of saying gay people who reject pride and the gay community are suffering from internalised homophobia or are in denial. It would not be the first time I have heard that, and I still disagree......

On your objections to being accused of having an attitude you are making accusations of condescension

if you can't see how Baby's post could be found condescending, I really don't think I can make it any clearer

Thats you making an accusation of the attitude of condesension while displaying an attitude that is so fixed you wouldnt even watch the video, cant you see that.
You are entitled to your opinion but why the protest at others reacting to it.

bodice ripper

Ah here, if you cant see it in baby's post, then there is nothing I can say that will be heard.

baby and crumble

bodice ripper wrote: »

Ah here, if you cant see it in baby's post, then there is nothing I can say that will be heard.

Show me it. Quote my post and bold the bits you find condescending. I genuinely want to see it, I can't change my tone if I don't know how.

bodice ripper

baby and crumble wrote: »

I don't know if I agree with that reading of the post. I think it boils down to a desire to be 'in power' or a part of the dominant pack. That's nothing about personality, it's a human/ animal desire for the most part. Nobody really wants to be in a group that is seen as "less than" or has fewer rights.

THIS IS CRAZY CONDESCENDING. you are suggesting that the reason anyone who rejects the community does so from some desire to be associated with those "in power".

Ambersky

The thread is or was suppose to be about minority status being the reason some people dont want to be a part of the gay community.

It was not a thread about the other reasons why some people dont want to be a part of the gay community.

This thread was about

Embracing minority status vrs not becoming part of the gay community

People are entitled to talk about that and analise that and turn it over and think about it and while they are doing so they are not obliged to take their focus off that subject because someone else thinks it is not the reason they dont want to be a part of the gay community even if an individual believes there are others who feel the same.

The idea that some people dont want to be a part of the gay community because they dont want to see themselves as part of a minority group is a valid argument.

bodice ripper

baby and crumble wrote: »

Thing is that there are lots of minority groups in Ireland, and as someone who is actually a part of quite a few of the 'less obvious' ones (Not Catholic, not a drinker, a butch woman...) it can be tough sometimes. It would be easier to (as some of my friends have) let people assume I know what they're talking about when they talk about Mass and confession and Hail Mary's and what have you. Or tell people there's vodka in my coke. Or dress more to fit in to what people think of as 'woman'.

I don't think this particular debate is about internalised phobias at all. It's just about our human nature to not want to be part of the group that's playing catch up.

you then go on to tell us about the struggle to keep it real, followed by reiterating that gay people who who don't "embrace minority status' do so to avoid a loss in social status or power.

Massively condescending, to assume you know peoples' motives, thousands of them, who you have never met.

It would be like if I said militant and/or butch lesbians are engaging in posturing, are insecure about themselves, and have a real problem with men. it would be incredibly arrogant, presumptive and condescending. Maybe they are just behaving in a way that comes natural to them, and I shouldn't project motives on them.

bodice ripper

Ambersky wrote: »

The idea that some people dont want to be a part of the gay community because they dont want to see themselves as part of a minority group is a valid argument.

And as any valid argument, it is open to debate. I think it is patronising as hell, and I am free to say so.


Unless you want to narrow the focus so much as to quiet any dissenting voice, and engage in some hand wringing for the poor gays who sell out for power and status.

Ambersky

bodice ripper, baby and crumble didnt say everyone

bodice ripper
THIS IS CRAZY CONDESCENDING. you are suggesting that the reason anyone who rejects the community does so from some desire to be associated with those "in power".

If you think the idea that some people dont want to be a part of the gay community because of not wanting to be a part of a minority group is open to debate

And as any valid argument, it is open to debate. I think it is patronising as hell, and I am free to say so.

then if your debate is that its not some, and you wont allow for some then your proposal has to be that its none.
That is what is called All or Nothing thinking and thats something that is usually best avoided.
I think thats whats happening here bodice ripper I think you are hearing this argument as being about everyone and that includes you and you are not allowing for the fact that people can discuss reasons for not being part of the LGBT community that arent your reasons.

bodice ripper

Ambersky wrote: »

bodice ripper, baby and crumble didnt say everyone


If you think the idea that some people dont want to be a part of the gay community because of not wanting to be a part of a minority group is open to debate then if its not some, and you wont allow for some then your proposal has to be that its none.
That is what is called All or Nothing thinking and thats something that is usually best avoided. I think thats whats happening here bodice ripper I think you are hearing this as everyone and that includes you and are not allowing for the fact that people can discuss reasons for not being part of the LGBT community that arent your reasons.

Cool, I will start a thread so about man hating lesbians, but stress that only some are man hating, and we are talking about them. I dare say a few lesbians would have some critical input, and rightly so.

So far, nobody else has chimed in from the viewpoint of choosing not to be a part of the gay community (possibly because they have despaired of trying to explain). So if I am out of the conversation, this thread is a hypothetical circle-jerk where the faithful gush about the community, and make assumptions about other people. Great, that accomplishes a lot. It also seems like a pretty good reason to be skeptical about whether the community has any relevance for some of us, you dig? But we aren't talking about that, we are here to talk about the sell outs.

poundapunnet

Ok look I really don't see why this is turning into such a fight.

baby and crumble wrote: »

I don't know if I agree with that reading of the post. I think it boils down to a desire to be 'in power' or a part of the dominant pack. That's nothing about personality, it's a human/ animal desire for the most part. Nobody really wants to be in a group that is seen as "less than" or has fewer rights.

Thing is that there are lots of minority groups in Ireland, and as someone who is actually a part of quite a few of the 'less obvious' ones (Not Catholic, not a drinker, a butch woman...) it can be tough sometimes. It would be easier to (as some of my friends have) let people assume I know what they're talking about when they talk about Mass and confession and Hail Mary's and what have you. Or tell people there's vodka in my coke. Or dress more to fit in to what people think of as 'woman'.

I don't think this particular debate is about internalised phobias at all. It's just about our human nature to not want to be part of the group that's playing catch up.

The bolded parts of the post there, while I'm sure they weren't intended that way, could easily be interpreted as saying "If you don't particularly identify with the LGBT community, it's because you're uncomfortable identifying as part of a minority because you see it as somehow socially inferior".

And that's an attitude you encounter a LOT in real life if you have mostly straight friends or don't get involved with specifically LGBT groups etc and it's not necessarily the case at all. Maybe it is for some people but to be honest I'd say they're not likely to be posting on boards like this anyway.

baby and crumble

Bodice Ripper, I am sorry that you find my posts condescending. I have read them again and again and I can't see how. I never said "everyone" wants to fit in, I said that it might be a thing. I include myself in all of these THEORETICAL discussions.

bodice ripper wrote: »

THIS IS CRAZY CONDESCENDING. you are suggesting that the reason anyone who rejects the community does so from some desire to be associated with those "in power".

I never said anything of the sort.

bodice ripper wrote: »

you then go on to tell us about the struggle to keep it real, followed by reiterating that gay people who who don't "embrace minority status' do so to avoid a loss in social status or power.

No, I said it might be a possible reason. A sensible one, actually. I also never said a damn word about 'keeping it real', wtf?

bodice ripper wrote: »

Massively condescending, to assume you know peoples' motives, thousands of them, who you have never met.

I am coming at this from a psychology/ anthropology viewpoint. I don't know what the multitude of reasons people do or do not join into a group, or claim whatever membership of whatever groups they want. I was just following on from the topic at hand, which is a discussion of whether or not a desire to not be classed as a minority MAY be a POSSIBLE reason for SOME people, in the back of their minds.

bodice ripper wrote: »

It would be like if I said militant and/or butch lesbians are engaging in posturing, are insecure about themselves, and have a real problem with men. it would be incredibly arrogant, presumptive and condescending. Maybe they are just behaving in a way that comes natural to them, and I shouldn't project motives on them.

I don't care what you say about anyone, if you're speaking from experience and in theoretical terms (and therefore not getting personal). You're right, nobody knows why people act the way they do. I never once presumed that I do. I don't even know why I act the way I do most of the time. But from someone who is interested in the motivations of human behaviour, it's interesting to think out loud, which is basically what forums like this are for. Show me where I say unequivocally that anyone who doesn't embrace the LGBT community is doing so for X reason. Please, show it to me in my own words.

bodice ripper wrote: »

So far, nobody else has chimed in from the viewpoint of choosing not to be a part of the gay community (possibly because they have despaired of trying to explain). So if I am out of the conversation, this thread is a hypothetical circle-jerk where the faithful gush about the community, and make assumptions about other people. Great, that accomplishes a lot. It also seems like a pretty good reason to be skeptical about whether the community has any relevance for some of us, you dig? But we aren't talking about that, we are here to talk about the sell outs.

You seem to be assuming that everyone here is against you. I am actually not particularly involved in the LGBT community in Ireland. I've been to Pride twice. In 32 years of life. I've been to a handful of Running Amach events, and that's pretty much it. I used to go out to gay bars when I was single, and occasionally still do. I can freely admit that I don't want to be involved in many aspects just because I'm gay. Some things about the community I actively dislike. It's not some sort of all or nothing like you seem to think. I also have to take issue with your description of the "faithful" as you say. Your disdain drips from the page, and I'd love to know what that's about. I have run out of fingers to count to amount of times you have come into a thread like this and banged on about internalised homophobia when no-one except YOU has ever mentioned it.

Get a grip and grow up.

(And yes, that last bit WAS meant to be condescending).

bodice ripper

baby and crumble wrote: »

Bodice Ripper, I am sorry that you find my posts condescending. I have read them again and again and I can't see how. I never said "everyone" wants to fit in, I said that it might be a thing. I include myself in all of these THEORETICAL discussions.



I never said anything of the sort.



No, I said it might be a possible reason. A sensible one, actually. I also never said a damn word about 'keeping it real', wtf?



I am coming at this from a psychology/ anthropology viewpoint. I don't know what the multitude of reasons people do or do not join into a group, or claim whatever membership of whatever groups they want. I was just following on from the topic at hand, which is a discussion of whether or not a desire to not be classed as a minority MAY be a POSSIBLE reason for SOME people, in the back of their minds.



I don't care what you say about anyone, if you're speaking from experience and in theoretical terms (and therefore not getting personal). You're right, nobody knows why people act the way they do. I never once presumed that I do. I don't even know why I act the way I do most of the time. But from someone who is interested in the motivations of human behaviour, it's interesting to think out loud, which is basically what forums like this are for. Show me where I say unequivocally that anyone who doesn't embrace the LGBT community is doing so for X reason. Please, show it to me in my own words.



You seem to be assuming that everyone here is against you. I am actually not particularly involved in the LGBT community in Ireland. I've been to Pride twice. In 32 years of life. I've been to a handful of Running Amach events, and that's pretty much it. I used to go out to gay bars when I was single, and occasionally still do. I can freely admit that I don't want to be involved in many aspects just because I'm gay. Some things about the community I actively dislike. It's not some sort of all or nothing like you seem to think. I also have to take issue with your description of the "faithful" as you say. Your disdain drips from the page, and I'd love to know what that's about. I have run out of fingers to count to amount of times you have come into a thread like this and banged on about internalised homophobia when no-one except YOU has ever mentioned it.

Get a grip and grow up.

(And yes, that last bit WAS meant to be condescending).

I must have imagined it so. Me and the few others who said or thanked posts. No wonder nobody wants to talk about it.

baby and crumble

bodice ripper wrote: »

I must have imagined it so. Me and the few others who said or thanked posts. No wonder nobody wants to talk about it.

Oh that's right. I forgot that anonymous people thanking a post on an internet site makes you right.

bodice ripper

baby and crumble wrote: »

Oh that's right. I forgot that anonymous people thanking a post on an internet site makes you right.

I said nothing about being right, I am merely noting I was not alone in thinking it was condescending.

Annasopra

Folks

I think the discusion on condescendion is very off topic.

bodice ripper

With respect, I disagree. I believe it is at the heart of the matter. To draw conclusions about the motives of others who you have never even met, nor are involved in the conversation, is condescending.

Annasopra

Ok folks as a mod I am asking people to move on from the issue of condescension. It's not particularly on topic and it seems to be getting heckles up. Also can I ask all contributors to refrain from any further personal attacks

bodice ripper

Well, I have nothing I can contribute. Have fun.

Ambersky

All that being part of a minority group means is that you have a physical, mental, social or maybe even spiritual difference from the majority of people in the area where you live or socialise that is not unique to you and that you share with a minority of other people .

LGBT people are not the only ones who can have some difficulty about belonging to or seeing themselves as part of a minority group, lots of other people struggle with this particularly when their difference is not instantly visible or when a difference is acquired or noticed in the teenage years or even later.
When a difference is immediately visible as is the case with colour, race sometimes, wheelchair use, etc, the person does not have to decide when or when not to declare their difference, the difference from the majority of people is instantly visible and they will sometimes get reactions and assumptions made about them because of it.
When a person’s difference from the majority is not immediately visible as can be the case with religion, sexual orientation, a sight or hearing loss, etc, people can find they have a choice about when, or if, they will declare their difference. Sometimes those decisions can take the form of deciding to actively hide or not hide a difference.

I know people who are blind and who would rather risk their lives crossing a busy city road that has no pedestrian lights without a white cane, than carry a cane and open themselves up to the possibility of other people knowing they are blind and maybe treating them differently.
I know people who have a hearing loss and would rather pretend they can hear conversations, the television, the doorbell, social welfare officers etc. than wear a hearing aid.
I know people who would rather live in a pretend marriage with an opposite sex partner or never have a relationship than let anyone know they are attracted to the same sex.

LGBT people sometimes have little or no experience of being part of a minority group up until they realise that they might be different to the heterosexual majority.
Sometimes the majority of people they know are inclusive of this difference and sometimes they are not, but the individual usually has to take the risk at some point and find out by becoming public about themselves.
Even when the majority are inclusive there can still be advantages to meeting up with others who have a difference similar to yourself or other people who belong to the same minority group as you do.
That’s all the video is about really, is talking about some peoples reluctance to go along to LGBT events because they don’t want to acknowledge that they are part of a minority group and how relaxing about that can mean, again for some people, that they can make some good contacts friends partners they wouldn’t otherwise have met.

Lou.m

poundapunnet wrote: »

Yeah I see how it could come across that way, tbh, I'm just saying that LGBT isn't a category I feel like I fit into more than a lot of other categories, and I'm in a good position to be able to say that. Sure I like to post on boards like these, I like hanging out with my lesbian friends, I read sites like autostraddle, it's just not something I think about very much. And that's thanks to things I have no control over, I very rarely have to think about the fact that I'm gay.



when I was younger, meeting and dating people would have been a bigger priority, and I interacted with the LGBT community in my city a bit more. But I found that I had no more in common with them than the film-loving community, the weed smoking community, the feminist community, the animal community, the vegetarian community. You have that one thing in common with them and nothing guaranteed beyond that. And the older I get, the less I'm bothered (I'm 24 btw). I've had two girlfriends, several random shags or f-buddies, I met them either through gaydargirls or just by going about my life and taking the risk of getting rejected. It works for me, and that's as far as my authority to comment on the situation extends, like I say, not judging anyone else.



See, I wouldn't get into a "white people film lovers" group, or a "right handed vegetarians" group, just like I wouldn't get into a "LGBT hill-walking" group. If I'm specifically looking for a girlfriend, which I rarely am, I go to online dating sites; and if I'm looking for a hook-up I've been around hippie party scenes for most of my life where you can go somewhere that's not specifically LGBT and get lucky easily.

It's not that I DON'T identify with being LGBT, it's not that I wouldn't tell anyone that I'm gay.

I dunno. Interesting thread anyway, it's made me think about my attitudes.

Fair nuff each to their own it is great it made US BOTH THINK
HUGS cuz this thread got a bit shouty and I like to bring the positive stuff so sorry to all in this thread and who read it. If I started **** I am sorry about that.

I just had some thoughts that I felt were interesting :-)

Ambersky

Well speaking for myself the video and the Op were and are very interesting Lou.m .
Positive stuff can come out of differences in opinion, like you say if it makes you think thats a good thing.