Donegal CC failure

Cookie_Monster

Surprised there is no thread on this already given it's such a rare occurance...

A very damning occurrence for local democracy surely, that really outlines the pointlessness of excessive bureaucracy at a local level - by not reaching agreement they have effective been replaced by a non democratic body anyway to get the job done.

So all of the elected representatives for the county have effectively been made redundant by their inability to agree on the budget, with it being handed over to the DoE to sort out the mess unless agreement is made immediately.

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/council-could-be-run-by-department-of-environment-as-politicians-defaulted-on-legal-budget-duty-29898742.html

A COUNTY council could be run by the Department of the Environment from next week after politicians protesting against Irish Water defaulted on their legal duty to pass a budget.

Why the DoE though as opposed to Finance would be my immediate query, Surely they would be the 'best' people to arrange financial matters given the circumstances?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Its not that unusual, it has happened before that County/City Councils have delayed until the last moment. Just a bit of typical SF/FF populism in a local election year. They will agree a budget on Monday in order to keep their own gravy train expenses.

raymon

The water charges were a Fianna Fail idea.

Fianna Fail committed to introducing water charges in the memo of understanding.

Populist hypocrites.

golfball37

Maybe just maybe the reprentatives of the people don't want to hand over county assets to a private company without having some questions answered first?

If I was from Donegal I'd appreciate the lads who voted against this no matter what colour their jersey.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

golfball37 wrote: »

Maybe just maybe the reprentatives of the people don't want to hand over county assets to a private company without having some questions answered first?

If I was from Donegal I'd appreciate the lads who voted against this no matter what colour their jersey.

You would appreciate having your CC replaced by a Ministerial appointee, because the members of the Cc refused to comply with their legal duty to set a budget?
Anyway come Monday it will be gravy all round as they decide to comply at the last minute, to protect their salaries and expenses.

Banjoxed

golfball37 wrote: »

Maybe just maybe the reprentatives of the people don't want to hand over county assets to a private company without having some questions answered first?

If I was from Donegal I'd appreciate the lads who voted against this no matter what colour their jersey.

Exactly. The OP has more than a smack of "If voting could change anything, they'd abolish it". I am neither a FFer or Shinner but this was just a reminder that we do not exist up here purely for the convenience of the professional classes.

K-9

raymon wrote: »

The water charges were a Fianna Fail idea.

Fianna Fail committed to introducing water charges in the memo of understanding.

Populist hypocrites.

I've no doubt FG would be doing the exact same if they were in the same situation.

Fianna Fail whip Cllr Ciaran Brogan said the water service and the budget were “intrinsically linked.”

He told the meeting: “We are being asked to transfer assets in Donegal with a value of €354 million and we should not be handing over those assets anyone.

We've had the same type of crisis the last couple of years and when FG was in opposition so not much change there, but in fairness he is raising a valid point there.

raymon

K-9 wrote: »

I've no doubt FG would be doing the exact same if they were in the same situation.



We've had the same type of crisis the last couple of years and when FG was in opposition so not much change there, but in fairness he is raising a valid point there.

I agree. The people of Donegal have a good point , but FF are the wrong people to protest the bringing in of their own FF water charges.

Surely there are some non FF, Lab , FG councillors to support SF on this.

ninty9er

There's more to it than meets the eye, the central government allocations have been slashed and the councils have also been told that LPT is not a council's to do with what it so wishes, despite the council determining the rate of LPT for it's area of authority from 2015 onwards once local elections have been held.

There's an element of populism, but there's also an element of reality in the oft acclaimed bad comparison of the household budget. If you have 3 stakeholders and they all want different things, the household doesn't shut down due to lack of budget, it continues to negotiate until one of them gets their way.

It's no wonder the whole thing turns into a circus when we treat local government like a joke in this country. If you look at other countries where local authorities can levy taxes and borrow independently (Spain being a classic example of how not to do it), central government intervention is in the manner of "cop the **** on and agree something ffs".

You build a house of cards and it will eventually collapse. Dermot Bannon and Patricia are what's needed up there.

micosoft

The simple answer though is to allow CC's vary the household charge. That means that councilars and parties that want to give away lots have to vote through a higher p1. Those that want a lower household charge will vote to reduce services. It's the disconnect between services received and who pays that is causing these breakdowns.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

micosoft wrote: »

The simple answer though is to allow CC's vary the household charge. That means that councilars and parties that want to give away lots have to vote through a higher p1. Those that want a lower household charge will vote to reduce services. It's the disconnect between services received and who pays that is causing these breakdowns.

No, what will happen is they will CC's will lower the charge in an act of populism, then increase business rates and blame central government when small businesses and shops are forced to close!

Mr.Micro

ninty9er wrote: »

It's no wonder the whole thing turns into a circus when we treat local government like a joke in this country. If you look at other countries where local authorities can levy taxes and borrow independently (Spain being a classic example of how not to do it), central government intervention is in the manner of "cop the **** on and agree something ffs".

Some of the clowns that get elected around here, I would not trust with a baby's rattle. I dread to think of them having any more power. We saw what happened when planning was in full swing during the housing boom. There was cross party co-operation so that they all got to the trough. Better quality councillors and staff are needed. Reform, transparency and accountability are needed before any more power is given to the local authorities.

Phoebas

golfball37 wrote: »

Maybe just maybe the reprentatives of the people don't want to hand over county assets to a private company without having some questions answered first?

And how does their actions get their questions answered?

grainnewhale

raymon wrote: »

The water charges were a Fianna Fail idea.

Fianna Fail committed to introducing water charges in the memo of understanding.

Populist hypocrites.

If f.g and lab are just implementing f.f policies, then why are they constantly clapping themselves on the back, for the miraculous (invisible) green shoots.

raymon

grainnewhale wrote: »

If f.g and lab are just implementing f.f policies, then why are they constantly clapping themselves on the back, for the miraculous (invisible) green shoots.

I have no idea.

jimmycrackcorm

What they're doing is ridiculous. The CC needs a budget and they're not going to get anything changed.

Also irish water is just another government body so I don't know why the transfer of assets matters. Taxpayer still owns it.

echo beach

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Also irish water is just another government body so I don't know why the transfer of assets matters. Taxpayer still owns it.

The taxpayer still owns it, for now. When we have paid the consultants to set it up and transferred the assets we own to it and get it up and running at a profit it will be ripe for selling off.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

echo beach wrote: »

The taxpayer still owns it, for now. When we have paid the consultants to set it up and transferred the assets we own to it and get it up and running at a profit it will be ripe for selling off.

And we should get a good return on it, everyone's a winner.

echo beach

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

And we should get a good return on it, everyone's a winner.

Ask those being supplied by privatised water companies in England if they think they are winners.

micosoft

echo beach wrote: »

Ask those being supplied by privatised water companies in England if they think they are winners.

Ask anyone if they like being charged for anything. Whether the bill comes from a public or private company, it make no odds.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

As predicted the councillors voted to keep their noses in the trough.

raymon

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

As predicted the councillors voted to keep their noses in the trough.

Indeed , just an excuse for Berties boys to get their faces on the tv.

Same as the dail opposition walkout.

As Fianna Fail remain in the doldrums you will see more of these publicity stunts.

nesf

raymon wrote: »

The water charges were a Fianna Fail idea.

Fianna Fail committed to introducing water charges in the memo of understanding.

Populist hypocrites.

Eh, just because a party is for something doesn't mean every member is and just because the party favours an idea doesn't mean they'd necessarily favour any implementation of this idea (though I doubt a FF created Irish Water would look much different).

There are many grounds on which to attack FF but really this is a bloody weak one.

raymon

nesf wrote: »

Eh, just because a party is for something doesn't mean every member is and just because the party favours an idea doesn't mean they'd necessarily favour any implementation of this idea (though I doubt a FF created Irish Water would look much different).

There are many grounds on which to attack FF but really this is a bloody weak one.

As the following text shows, Fianna Fail signed us up for water charges in 2011. Not alone that they also committed to starting a body called " Irish Water"

Shocking to see the FF amnesia on this issue

Text of Fianna Fail Agreement with Troika in 2010 to bring in water charges;


The Commission for Energy Regulation (CER) will carry out consultations to determine the framework for household water charges with a view to start charging by the end of the EU-IMF programme period. The CER will also conduct consultations in due course to determine the pricing methodology for the non-domestic sector.

The Government will publish the General Scheme of a Water Services Bill with the aim of defining the regulatory framework for the water sector under a national public utility setting and providing for the establishment of Irish Water in its final form. There will be prior engagement with the European Commission as appropriate, in developing the legislative arrangements.

nesf

raymon wrote: »

As the following text shows, Fianna Fail signed us up for water charges in 2011. Not alone that they also committed to starting a body called " Irish Water"

Shocking to see the FF amnesia on this issue

Text of Fianna Fail Agreement with Troika in 2010 to bring in water charges;


The Commission for Energy Regulation (CER) will carry out consultations to determine the framework for household water charges with a view to start charging by the end of the EU-IMF programme period. The CER will also conduct consultations in due course to determine the pricing methodology for the non-domestic sector.

The Government will publish the General Scheme of a Water Services Bill with the aim of defining the regulatory framework for the water sector under a national public utility setting and providing for the establishment of Irish Water in its final form. There will be prior engagement with the European Commission as appropriate, in developing the legislative arrangements.

Sure. This still doesn't help your point at all because a) calls have been made since 2011 that don't involve FF, b) I doubt these councillors were asked their opinion on the matter and c) people are actually entitled to change their minds and revise their opinion now and then, shocking a concept as this might be.

raymon

nesf wrote: »

Sure. This still doesn't help your point at all because a) calls have been made since 2011 that don't involve FF, b) I doubt these councillors were asked their opinion on the matter and c) people are actually entitled to change their minds and revise their opinion now and then, shocking a concept as this might be.

Ok then , let's say that FF had remained in power and introduced their water charges and their Irish Water. Do you think that all the FF councillors would be staging revolts and shaking their heads in fake outrage on the 6-one news???
Not a chance.

Do you think Barry Cowen would be shouting like an idiot on television.

I am against water charges. I am no big fan of FG/ lab ( although they are making some progress) and Phil Hogan annoys me. But I can't let Fianna Fail take the moral high ground on this. It is cynical.

creedp

raymon wrote: »

Ok then , let's say that FF had remained in power and introduced their water charges and their Irish Water. Do you think that all the FF councillors would be staging revolts and shaking their heads in fake outrage on the 6-one news???
Not a chance.

Do you think Barry Cowen would be shouting like an idiot on television.

I am against water charges. I am no big fan of FG/ lab ( although they are making some progress) and Phil Hogan annoys me. But I can't let Fianna Fail take the moral high ground on this. It is cynical.

Its politics as it always has been, for example changing your text above slightly we get - let's say that FF had remained in power and introduced their water charges and their Irish Water. Do you think that all the FF FG councillors would be staging revolts and shaking their heads in fake outrage on the 6-one news???

Would anyone be surprised?

raymon

creedp wrote: »

Its politics as it always has been, for example changing your text above slightly we get - let's say that FF had remained in power and introduced their water charges and their Irish Water. Do you think that all the FF FG councillors would be staging revolts and shaking their heads in fake outrage on the 6-one news???

Would anyone be surprised?

I think your point is that whoever is in opposition opposes the government.

That's fair enough , but all of this was the brainchild of Fianna Fail.
I think this Donegal CC budget thing was just to get their faces on the tv.

Sinn Fein and independents had a legitimate protest against these Fianna Fail inspired charges. Fianna Fail are hijacking the protest and putting Sinn Fein in the shadows. Shame on you Sinn Fein for being manipulated.

Mr.Micro

raymon wrote: »

I think your point is that whoever is in opposition opposes the government.

That's fair enough , but all of this was the brainchild of Fianna Fail.
I think this Donegal CC budget thing was just to get their faces on the tv.

Sinn Fein and independents had a legitimate protest against these Fianna Fail inspired charges. Fianna Fail are hijacking the protest and putting Sinn Fein in the shadows. Shame on you Sinn Fein for being manipulated.

Raymon did you mention the word brain in connection with FF?

raymon

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Raymon did you mention the word brain in connection with FF?

Oops , well spotted !!!!

creedp

raymon wrote: »

I think your point is that whoever is in opposition opposes the government.

That's fair enough , but all of this was the brainchild of Fianna Fail.
I think this Donegal CC budget thing was just to get their faces on the tv.

Sinn Fein and independents had a legitimate protest against these Fianna Fail inspired charges. Fianna Fail are hijacking the protest and putting Sinn Fein in the shadows. Shame on you Sinn Fein for being manipulated.

Agree and just in case there is any confusion I'm an ABFF person since since the Haughey era. My problem with FG criticising FF for being populist in relation to water charges is that they did exactly the same thing themselves by criticising FF for not increasing public expenditure and reduced taxation further during the so called Celtic Tiger era. At this point all I have left for policicians of all hue is cynicism. In my view if FG are reelected next time around there will perfect the art of cute hoor politics to a level not even FF could aspire .. there're simply a bit green around the ears yet. Even at present they are very adept .. what with certain connected business people being awarded lucrative public contracts and NAMA writing off their company debts .. what would be possible ater 10 years of unbroken power?

nesf

raymon wrote: »

Ok then , let's say that FF had remained in power and introduced their water charges and their Irish Water. Do you think that all the FF councillors would be staging revolts and shaking their heads in fake outrage on the 6-one news???
Not a chance.

Do you think Barry Cowen would be shouting like an idiot on television.

I am against water charges. I am no big fan of FG/ lab ( although they are making some progress) and Phil Hogan annoys me. But I can't let Fianna Fail take the moral high ground on this. It is cynical.

Eh, this is politics no? I'm quite serious, I'd put good money on the average Councillor regardless of creed compromising on almost all areas of politics (excluding but not always, things like abortion) if it helped them get elected. Sure you get the odd true believer Green or Socialist Councillor but they're the exception not the rule. I find it very very odd to single out FF for criticism on this because well, all of the Big Three have been up to it since I first started paying attention to politics twenty years ago! It's really not because I think FF are faultless here or anything just that this really is the norm and them not doing this would be deeply out of character and similar to the Tallaght Strategy from when I was rather young (which was a high point for FG in terms of integrity tbh).

raymon

creedp wrote: »

My problem with FG criticising FF for being populist in relation to water charges is that they did exactly the same thing themselves by criticising FF for not increasing public expenditure and reduced taxation further during the n power?

This is not a case of FG criticising FF.

In fact FG have not criticised FF enough for their amnesia and cynicism.

raymon

nesf wrote: »

Eh, this is politics no? I'm quite serious, I'd put good money on the average Councillor regardless of creed compromising on almost all areas of politics (excluding but not always, things like abortion) if it helped them get elected. Sure you get the odd true believer Green or Socialist Councillor but they're the exception not the rule. I find it very very odd to single out FF for criticism on this because well, all of the Big Three have been up to it since I first started paying attention to politics twenty years ago! It's really not because I think FF are faultless here or anything just that this really is the norm and them not doing this would be deeply out of character and similar to the Tallaght Strategy from when I was rather young (which was a high point for FG in terms of integrity tbh).

I agree with most of what you are saying.

I am singling out FF in this thread because it is they that are misrepresenting themselves in the media over these charges. If you notice I didn't criticize Sinn Fein, because they have a valid right to protest on this issue.

Let me tell you it gives me no pleasure to see Phil Hogan with his arrogant bulldozer attitude on our screens either

nesf

raymon wrote: »

I agree with most of what you are saying.

I am singling out FF in this thread because it is they that are misrepresenting themselves in the media over these charges. If you notice I didn't criticize Sinn Fein, because they have a valid right to protest on this issue.

Let me tell you it gives me no pleasure to see Phil Hogan with his arrogant bulldozer attitude on our screens either

If you don't think SF talk as often out of both sides of their mouth as any other party there then you've got a lot to learn about politics I'm afraid.

raymon

nesf wrote: »

If you don't think SF talk as often out of both sides of their mouth as any other party there then you've got a lot to learn about politics I'm afraid.

In general yes. But on this specific issue SF and independents are the only sides that should be protesting .

FF have been making a habit of hijacking other peoples protests lately.

nesf

raymon wrote: »

In general yes. But on this specific issue SF and independents are the only sides that should be protesting .

FF have been making a habit of hijacking other peoples protests lately.

Former FF Ministers protesting sure, some CC far from the leadership? Eh, I doubt they knew more about the Troika negotiations than FG etc did to be honest and a lot of them were not very on-board with the whole thing either if memory serves.

raymon

nesf wrote: »

Former FF Ministers protesting sure, some CC far from the leadership? Eh, I doubt they knew more about the Troika negotiations than FG etc did to be honest and a lot of them were not very on-board with the whole thing either if memory serves.

That's a bit of a cop out. Fianna Fail are not responsible for FF policies and decisions?

Interesting .......

nesf

raymon wrote: »

That's a bit of a cop out. Fianna Fail are not responsible for FF policies and decisions?

Interesting .......

Well, just to start with it'd be more than a tad unreasonable to hold someone who was minorly involved in Ógra as responsible for Ministerial decisions. FF is responsible sure, but does that responsibility permeate down to every member of it? Every voter who threw a preference their way? Etc.

raymon

nesf wrote: »

Well, just to start with it'd be more than a tad unreasonable to hold someone who was minorly involved in Ógra as responsible for Ministerial decisions. FF is responsible sure, but does that responsibility permeate down to every member of it? Every voter who threw a preference their way? Etc.

Yes , I hold all members of FF responsible for all decisions that FF made , especially people like Ogra and other grassroots members.

Shame on them all for bankrupting the country and handing over our soverignty.

Shame on them for instigating water charges and Irish Water

Phoebas

raymon wrote: »

Yes , I hold all members of FF responsible for all decisions that FF made , especially people like Ogra and other grassroots members.

Shame on them all for bankrupting the country and handing over our soverignty.

Shame on them for instigating water charges and Irish Water

What do you mean by especially responsible? More responsible that the leadership?

raymon

Phoebas wrote: »

What do you mean by especially responsible? More responsible that the leadership?

They are all to blame in my opinion.

Take a look at this youtube clip of Brian Cowen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8F-9nmZ5I

Do you see one idiot ? Or many ?

I see many - although I am biased.

Phoebas

raymon wrote: »

They are all to blame in my opinion.

Take a look at this youtube clip of Brian Cowen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8F-9nmZ5I

Do you see one idiot ? Or many ?

I see many - although I am biased.

But why do you hold Ogra and the grassroots especially responsible?

raymon

Phoebas wrote: »

But why do you hold Ogra and the grassroots especially responsible?

You never answered the question - how many idiots did you see in the video ?


They are the people who canvass their friends and neighbours up and down the country to sell their party leaders to the electorate. Without the popular support of grassroots the party would not have leaders like Charlie, Bertie , Cowen and Martin.

I dont want to drag this thread off the OP - that is not my intention. I just wanted to highlight the hipocracy of Fianna Fail CC members , protesting against a body which was their idea.

Phoebas

I didn't watch the video. I don't get how what I think of people I don't know would be relevant to why you hold grassroots members of FF more responsible than senior members.

But you're right about one thing - this is going off topic, so probably not worth pursuing further.

raymon

Phoebas wrote: »

But you're right about one thing - this is going off topic, so probably not worth pursuing further.

Agreed