The Irish Second Row problem going forward

PlayerTrader13

Second rows with Irish caps:

Leo Cullen, retires this season.
DOC(34), contracted with Munster until June 2016 when he will be 37.
POC(34), central contract ends this season.
Mike McCarthy(32), contracted with Leinster until June 2016 when he will be 34.
Donnacha Ryan(30), centrally contracted until June 2017 when he will be 33.
Ryan Caldwell(29), contracted with Bath until June 2015 when he will be 30.
Dan Touhy(28), contracted with Ulster until June 2015 when he will be 30.
Devin Toner(27), contracted with Leinster until June 2015 when he will be 29.

Potential player with an Irish cap who could play second row in near future:

Iain Henderson(21), contracted with Ulster until 2015 when he will be 23.

DOC's international career is essentially over, Cullen's is.
Caldwell is in exile and has no chance of adding to his caps while abroad.
Ryan's form has dipped and he has been plighted by injury.
McCarthy and Toner are probably the form pair in the country.
Touhy impresses for Ulster but has failed to make a breakthrough internationally.
POC, injury permitting seems to be aiming for the RWC as his signing off.

Very few young(22-27) Irish second rows getting regular game time at the position.

Could be serious problems post RWC at the position.

Swiwi.

Jeepers, you're a new thread a minute there PT13! I wouldn't worry post RWC, players will always emerge. I think the more intriguing Q is who gets to partner POC in the 6N, and that has already been debated a fair bit recently.

Hagz

There is no problem in my opinion. We are in a good place with Paul O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Devin Toner, Mike McCarthy, and Iain Henderson should prove to be a good option.

Of course Paul O'Connell will likely retire at the end of the world cup, but Donnacha Ryan will still be going strong, as will Devin Toner.
To add to that there is a lot of young talent at lock in Ireland, so should a gap open up, no doubt it will be taken.

PlayerTrader13

Hagz wrote: »

To add to that there is a lot of young talent at lock in Ireland, so should a gap open up, no doubt it will be taken.

Who are you refering to exactly?

There is probably one Irish second row between the age of 20 and 26 getting regular playing time at lock at a province.

phog

Why the need for all the threads, would it not be simpler to address this in the Ireland thread, less likely hood of duplication across threads.

Anyway, if the trio of POC, DOC and Ryan are gone from Munster then surely Munster will have replacements for them. That will mean we'll have 2 if not three IQ locks playing. One of which will be Dave Foley.

Hagz

It's the same situation as tight-head. Couple of seasons ago people thought we were in a rut, but there was talent in the system being brought through. In this instance we are in better situation, as the players who will fill the void temporarily before that young talent emerges are actually decent international rugby players.

ScissorPaperRock

I kind of like the different threads actually. They allow for a focused, self-contained, discussion on a specific topic.

wp_rathead

Mick Kearney at Connacht is having a great season partnering Clarke - at only 22 he has potential to start putting hand up for selection if his progress continues..

PlayerTrader13

wprathead wrote: »

Mick Kearney at Connacht is having a great season partnering Clarke - at only 22 he has potential to start putting hand up for selection if his progress continues..

He is the only Irish second row getting consistent playing time at the position who is under 26, although with Henderson back from injury we might begin to see more of him at second row.

Foley looks like he might start at the weekend for Munster due to DOC and Ryan being injured.

norrie rugger

Can we please remove Devin Toner from conversations about the future of Ireland's second rows??
The man is not international standard. I would prefer Mick O'Driscoll for heaven's sake

armchaircoach

norrie rugger wrote: »

Can we please remove Devin Toner from conversations about the future of Ireland's second rows??
The man is not international standard. I would prefer Mick O'Driscoll for heaven's sake

Can you please give your reasons for excluding one of the form locks of this season, are is it just a personal dislike?

rrpc

norrie rugger wrote: »

Can we please remove Devin Toner from conversations about the future of Ireland's second rows??
The man is not international standard. I would prefer Mick O'Driscoll for heaven's sake

The man clearly is international standard having been selected by two different Irish coaches.

He's considered the form Irish lock at the moment. He has done a huge amount of work to get himself to that level.

sydthebeat

norrie rugger wrote: »

Can we please remove Devin Toner from conversations about the future of Ireland's second rows??
The man is not international standard. I would prefer Mick O'Driscoll for heaven's sake

someone hasnt seen much rugby over the last 2 years

stpaddy99

its not too bad. though it may be the time now to blood more of the less experienced boys on that list. not sure poc will make it at the top level through to 2015, hope so, but hes so physical and takes such a battering. overall though there seems a fair but of talent coming through
this reminds me of something keith wood said which made me laugh
2012 i think it was, we were about to play the all black and gabby logan compares the teams and asks why do the all blacks have so many fewer caps , comparing their props with john hayes...woodys response...."well its because we cant find better players to replace them with" lol
funny and true.
the all blacks dropped players like cullen, mills mulliaina, byron kelleher, doug howlett, rocokoko, sivivatu, jerry collins, marty holah, players with 30 tries in 40 odd tests? ...etc dropped...howlett 49 tries in 62 tests? the best strike rate ever? dropped?

xavier rush was probably the bets 8 in uk/irish club rugby and was probably 10th choice for the all blacks

norrie rugger

He is good in the line out but carries the ball with an overly high body position (couple that with his height and it becomes a problem).
His rucking is poor.

Main problem is due to his frame, his greatest asset of his height is a weakness in other areas

razorblunt

rrpc wrote: »

The man clearly is international standard having been selected by two different Irish coaches.

He's considered the form Irish lock at the moment. He has done a huge amount of work to get himself to that level.

Yep I'd agree with this. I was originally in the "not international standard" camp but his performance against NZ indicates he can play to that level, he now needs to keep hitting that level or somewhere close to it.

Buer

norrie rugger wrote: »

He is good in the line out but carries the ball with an overly high body position (couple that with his height and it becomes a problem).
His rucking is poor.

Main problem is due to his frame, his greatest asset of his height is a weakness in other areas

Except all this was dispelled over the autumn.

The idea that locks should bury themselves in rucks and that is the only measure of them is archaic.

.ak

His ball carrying is actually great lately. I wouldn't be surprised if his stats back that up. His carrying against Connacht was top and he made some key carries for us in the 2nd half.

stpaddy99

we need to settle on an out and out 7 , with SOB at 6
that will negate the need for locks to hurl themselves into rucks as the openside should hit the ruck first and secure more possession

armchaircoach

His line break against scarlets in the first game of the season followed by a lovely soft pass lead to a great try

norrie rugger

Buer wrote: »

Except all this was dispelled over the autumn.

The idea that locks should bury themselves in rucks and that is the only measure of them is archaic.

It is a key role that they must play, I still see big faults in his ball carrying, into contact, and general body positions. There is improvement, no doubt, but I really do not think that we should be pinning our future at lock, to him

PlayerTrader13

our future at lock is Iain Henderson plus another.

.ak

stpaddy99 wrote: »

we need to settle on an out and out 7 , with SOB at 6
that will negate the need for locks to hurl themselves into rucks as the openside should hit the ruck first and secure more possession

The way the game is going it's all about getting the pack to play for each other in every area of the game. We've seen at Leinster how a pack with no particular 'specialist' areas became so potent, from 1 to 8 everyone is willing to ruck and get stuck in. It's a very NZ based template, where you're not worried about your big units trying to get you out of trouble in the breakdown, everyone should be developing the same skillset.

That's why I think the need for out and out groundhog 7's is diminishing in the game. That's why you were as likely to see Heaslip, Strauss, Cronin, Healy or anyone else in that Leinster pack during their pomp winning a turn over or having a big impact on clear outs.

norrie rugger

PS I would love to be proven wrong, as his stature would be great addition.

Also he has, somehow, overcome the imbalance that he caused at scrum time. That was a big worry that he has overcome

jamiedav2011

.ak wrote: »

The way the game is going it's all about getting the pack to play for each other in every area of the game. We've seen at Leinster how a pack with no particular 'specialist' areas became so potent, from 1 to 8 everyone is willing to ruck and get stuck in. It's a very NZ based template, where you're not worried about your big units trying to get you out of trouble in the breakdown, everyone should be developing the same skillset.

That's why I think the need for out and out groundhog 7's is diminishing in the game. That's why you were as likely to see Heaslip, Strauss, Cronin, Healy or anyone else in that Leinster pack during their pomp winning a turn over or having a big impact on clear outs.

Definitely agree with the jist of that, and I'd hope it's the model Schmidt is trying to implement with Ireland. There were/are lots of specialist areas in that Leinster squad though in fairness! Locky, Hines/Thorn, Leo, Ross, Heaslip, Jennings you could all say were archetypal players.

mogwai81

I'm not sure whether Iain Henderson will end up at flanker or lock, i'd probably prefer lock.
But surely a couple out of Ross Molony, Tadhg Beirne, Gavin Thornbury, John Madigan, Sean McCarthy, Darren O'Shea will come good in the coming years.
Of the players mentioned who would be deemed the best prospect.

bilston

mogwai81 wrote: »

I'm not sure whether Iain Henderson will end up at flanker or lock, i'd probably prefer lock.
But surely a couple out of Ross Molony, Tadhg Beirne, Gavin Thornbury, John Madigan, Sean McCarthy, Darren O'Shea will come good in the coming years.
Of the players mentioned who would be deemed the best prospect.

Thornbury stood out at the JWC didn't he? Tadhg Beirne was good at the previous JWC but was a bit overshadowed by Henderson but there is no shame in that. John Donnan is another to add to the list.

Heroditas

.ak wrote: »

His ball carrying is actually great lately. I wouldn't be surprised if his stats back that up. His carrying against Connacht was top and he made some key carries for us in the 2nd half.

Exactly. Also, many people seem determined that locks should be making the short-distance carries in the tight exchanges. We have plenty of players capable of doing that, e.g. O'Brien, Healy, Best etc.
It's an awfully dour sort of rugby. I don't think that Joe will want us to play a game like that which plays into the hands of heavier packs.
Instead Toner, as has been pointed out, has very soft hands. He's also deceptively quick which means he can play a mobile game and slot into the backline in multiple phases. The guy's got better hands than many backs. Let's utilise that asset!

mogwai81

bilston wrote: »

Thornbury stood out at the JWC didn't he? Tadhg Beirne was good at the previous JWC but was a bit overshadowed by Henderson but there is no shame in that. John Donnan is another to add to the list.

I've heard it mentioned that Beirne is a good lineout operator, but he did look fairly lightweight at the JWC.
But in fairness he was playing beside Henderson, who was smashing anyone in his path.

Grimebox

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

I kind of like the different threads actually. They allow for a focused, self-contained, discussion on a specific topic.

I'd go as far to say that I really dislike the super threads. If you stop reading for a day or two, there is 5+ pages to trawl through and the topic could be anything.

Mahatma Geansai

Dave Foley looks like becoming a very good player. He has the innate aggression and athleticism that many of our other options lack. Hopefully he can continue to rise through the ranks at Munster.

Foxtrol

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Dave Foley looks like becoming a very good player. He has the innate aggression and athleticism that many of our other options lack. Hopefully he can continue to rise through the ranks at Munster.

He’s a good player but he’s really suffering from not getting enough game time. Currently he’s more likely to be playing for the As than be in the 23 man squad when all are fit. He’ll be 26 at the end of the season and only has 25 Munster caps and from the way things are panning out it doesn’t look like he could be pushing the starting side until the end of next season and that’s if POC retires after the World Cup. It’s hardly ideal for his development.

Talks of him being unlucky not making the Irish squad are ridiculous on the back of a handful of good performances for Munster, Kidney isn't in charge anymore.