Metal detecting in Ireland

justforgroups

There are loads of threads discussing this, but none in the Legal forum (:o). A lot of people are trying to make out that metal detecting is a "grey area" but I don't think that defence would stand up in court :P So I thought I'd summarise the metal detecting (MD for short) situation in Ireland as simply as I can.

Yes, there will be niggly points below open for argument, and others can be dragged out ad infinitum, however I believe that this is a practical guide for most people. Please read a number of times before commenting

With that out of the way, to sum up, illegal MD pivots on the State proving that the intent of the person using the MD is to search for an "archaeological object" as defined in the National Monuments Acts (1930 to 2004). That "intent" will be based on where the individual is using the MD .

(Essentially this means it is not illegal, per se, to own or operate an MD in Ireland once there is no criminal damage involved, i.e. digging up your neighbour's lawn without permission for example. However keep reading...)

So how can the state prove this? They will rely primarily on the Record of Monuments and Places (RMP), as they will have expected the MD to have done (ignorance of the law is no defence).

If the individual has been MD 'near' a registered monument, then this is a strong case in ascertaining that the intent was to search for an "archaeological object". Note that getting "permission from the farmer" or anything like that, is irrelevant to your 'intent'.

So let's take 4 concrete examples:
a) you dig up a gold chalice at the round tower in Glendalough.
b) you dig up a gold chalice on Sandymount strand
c) you dig up a gold chalice on Bray beach
d) you dig up a gold chalice in the back yard of your home near Tara

Probable legal outcome:
a) 100% illegal. No defence to MD anywhere in the valley (but see (d)).

b) Sheet 3264 of the Dublin RMP shows a monument (Mantello tower) on the bottom right, on the shoreline. It could be argued that particular spot was chosen for MD due to it's proximity to the monument.

Another monument is located on sheet 3329 (St. Mary's church). While a bit further away from the beach, the same argument could still be made - that spot on the beach was chosen due to its proximity to a monument. And a church especially, in this case.

c) Sheet 3568 shows only one monument on Bray beach (at the golf course). Finding something around here could raise the same argument as (b). MD anywhere else along the beach should be fine though, since there is nothing to indicate that the intent was to search for an "archaeological object" so a find can be put down to chance (which is permitted under the law).

d) Again, it does not matter where you are - it comes back to your 'intent'. If your back wall pushes up against the hill (ok, you get what I mean by this extreme example!), then it can be reasonably assumed the intention of MD was to search for "archaeological objects".

If, like in the Bray example, the MD is no where near a registered monument (according to the RMP), then the find can be put down to chance. However you need to consider how it would look to an outsider (the Gardai/judge in this case): at a place like Tara, it would be very iffy - even if you are a 1/2 mile away from the official "boundary" of the monument, would that still be enough to say the intent was not to search for an "archaeological object"? Ummm - personally, my advice would be not to risk it and to stay WELL away from any monument, especially one that can be difficult to define with a boundary like Glendalough, Tara, buildings/ruins, etc.

So what should you do if thinking of MD?
Since MD itself is legal, a Garda would have to prove that your intent is to search for an "archaeological object". My suggestion is to print out the sheet(s) from the RMP of the area you are planning to search, study them to make sure you are no where near a monument, and take them with you as evidence if stopped by a Garda. Simply saying "ah sure, there's nothing of interest around here, guard!" is not going to cut it :-P However the papers should at least demonstrate that you are aware of your responsibilities in MD and your clear intent is to avoid registered monuments.

Hope this clears everything up once and for all! Other info on MD and the law is here.

Happy detecting!

Grolschevik

There's quite a detailed sticky in the Archaeology forum that pretty much disagrees with your interpretation.

Also, doesn't this sort of constitute legal advice being proffered?

justforgroups

Grolschevik wrote: »

There's quite a detailed sticky in the Archaeology forum that pretty much disagrees with your interpretation.

Also, doesn't this sort of constitute legal advice being proffered?

Do you mean this one? Well if you read it more carefully, you will see that it actually confirms exactly what I posted: "it is illegal to use a metal detecting device to search for archaeological objects".

Where you an many others are making the mistake, is interpreting that to mean using an MD is completely illegal. It is not. It is illegal only if searching for archaeological objects, i.e. your intent when using the MD. My post showed how to mitigate that if approached by a garda when using your otherwise completely legal MD.

On your second point, I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or serious? If anyone actually makes a decision based solely on an Internet forum posting (regardless of whether the forum is called "legal" or not), they have bigger problems!! In any case, as I said in my post, I am only making a suggestion. Checking in with a garda station (and the RMP documents) is the best thing to do, before heading out.

slowburner

In July 2013 the minister issued clarification and guidelines on the use of metal detectors in response to a significant upsurge in the looting of archaological objects in Ireland. 899 objects unearthed by metal detectorists in Ireland and exported for sale to the UK, were recovered in a recent joint Anglo-Irish operation.

Frustrated by the clarity of these guidelines, groups of metal detectorists engaged in a campaign of obfuscation and misinformation.
The OP is yet another attempt at obfuscation but it is not clear if this is deliberate propaganda or simple ignorance. Whichever, the advice being given is dangerously misleading and could lead to the prosecution of someone equally misinformed.

There are two core principles in the act (paraphrased here) which effectively make all metal detecting without a license illegal:
1. Anything can be considered to be an archaeological object.
2. To use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects, the user must have written permission from the minister.

These principles apply to the entire state not just areas in proximity to national monuments.

The recent guidelines clarify these two principles:

5. What is an “Archaeological Object”?
The term ‘archaeological object’ is defined in the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004 and has a broad meaning in terms of type and age of objects. Commonplace objects of relatively recent date such as coins and militaria, including 20th century material, may fall within the category of ‘archaeological object’. Such objects may come within the terms of the definition regardless of their date and degree of antiquity. It may not be apparent until an object has been dug up that it is an archaeological object. In that event, the damage will already have been done and an offence is likely to have been committed.

7. What is the General Advice to the Public on the Use of Metal Detectors?
It is against the law to engage in general searches for archaeological objects in Ireland using a metal detecting device unless you have received written consent from the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. To do so without such consent places you at risk of prosecution. The onus is on the operator to ensure that a metal detector is used in accordance with the law.
While it is illegal to use a metal detector anywhere to search for archaeological objects without the formal consent of the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, it is an offence to even be in possession of a metal detecting device without the Minister’s consent on the site of any monument or archaeological area protected under the National Monuments Acts. This also applies to areas which are subject to underwater heritage orders made under the National Monuments Acts.
There are around 130,000 archaeological monuments located all across the State which are protected under the terms of the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004. In many cases, there may be no surviving above ground remains and it may not be immediately apparent that there is the site of a protected monument at a particular location.

slowburner

justforgroups wrote: »

On your second point, I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or serious? If anyone actually makes a decision based solely on an Internet forum posting (regardless of whether the forum is called "legal" or not), they have bigger problems!!

http://www.anthonyjoyce.ie/defamation-social-media

_MadRa_

If you find a chalice you have two ways to go:
you can use it yourself for drinks and whatnot,
Or you can pound it flat with a club hammer and take it into cash for gold.

whippet

_MadRa_ wrote: »

Or you can pound it flat with a club hammer and take it into cash for gold.

and get a €5 for your troubles

I often wondered what the law was. I have a relative who owns a listed building on a fair chunk of land (an old estate house) and it goes back about 800 - 900 years. I always thought of what might be found if I went wandering around the grounds with a metal detector.

deandean

I have a metal detector which I use for work sometimes, usually this is looking for pipes, cables and stuff underground.

While I would not be searching for archaeological object it is always possible that I might find one.

I cannot apply to the Minister for a licence to use a metal detector for work purposes, as he only issues licences for qualified archaeologist-types to use metal detectors on named sites.

I seem to be in a real grey area, with a possible €63,000 fine and three months imprisonment according to the statute book for using a metal detector in the course of my (non-archaeological) work :eek:

If I'm ever hauled up on it, I suppose I'll just have to state my case and hope to the best?

chops018

Would this not come under Treasure Trove.

The main case being Webb .v. Ireland (1988) - where a hoard was found that included a gold chalice. The plaintiffs were told by the museum that they would be "honourably treated" if they gave up the hoard. The case made its way to the Supreme Court after the museum didn't follow through. Finlay J. said that the plaintiffs did not have a prima facie title to the hoard. The landowners had a superior right, to which the State succeeded an agreement.

The argument then came to whether the State had a prerogative right to Treasure Trove, as the defendant could claim title and the plaintiff a reward. Article 10 of the constitution (state dominion over mineral rights) was used to ground the defendants claim to title. However the plaintiffs were grounded to have a legitimate expectation to be honourably treated and had a right to an reward.

As a result of this case section 2(1) of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1994 was created which provides:
"Without prejudice to any other rights howsoever arising in relation to any archaeological object found before the coming into operation of this section, there shall stand vested in the state ownership of an archaeological object found in the State after coming into operation of this section where such an object has no known owner when it was found".

justforgroups

slowburner wrote: »

In July 2013 the minister issued clarification and guidelines on the use of metal detectors in response to a significant upsurge in the looting of archaological objects in Ireland. 899 objects unearthed by metal detectorists in Ireland and exported for sale to the UK, were recovered in a recent joint Anglo-Irish operation.

Frustrated by the clarity of these guidelines, groups of metal detectorists engaged in a campaign of obfuscation and misinformation.
The OP is yet another attempt at obfuscation but it is not clear if this is deliberate propaganda or simple ignorance. Whichever, the advice being given is dangerously misleading and could lead to the prosecution of someone equally misinformed.

There are two core principles in the act (paraphrased here) which effectively make all metal detecting without a license illegal:
1. Anything can be considered to be an archaeological object.
2. To use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects, the user must have written permission from the minister.

These principles apply to the entire state not just areas in proximity to national monuments.

The recent guidelines clarify these two principles:

"The OP is yet another attempt at obfuscation" Funny you should say that and then post a link to defamation :P Anyway, I've no association with any MD organization, official or otherwise. My post is an attempt to clarify the situation, not obscure it as I have recently taken up the hobby.

The rest of your post backs-up my post completely, but you, unfortunately, are falling into the same trap as Grolschevik: Searching (explicitly) for an "archaeological object" with an MD is illegal (as so it should be). No where did I say that it was legal "far away" from any monument - it is your intent that matters and it is just the proximity to a monument would make your intention suspicious.

If MD was illegal, the act would make it illegal completely - making MD only under license regardless of purpose, or restricting the importation. However it is not. That is the point.

deandean highlights a perfect case below. If a garda stopped him/her with a MD, he might have to prove he wasn't searching for an "archaeological object". If searching for pipes etc. is part of his job description and he's on a job site, then there's no problem - he won't be asked for a license because you don't need one to operate a MD in this circumstance - it is clear that his "intent" is related to his job for finding underground pipes. And that's even if he finds a golden chalice.

And at the expense of repeating myself, checking in with a garda station (and the RMP documents) is the best thing to do, before heading out.

justforgroups

deandean wrote: »

I have a metal detector which I use for work sometimes, usually this is looking for pipes, cables and stuff underground.

While I would not be searching for archaeological object it is always possible that I might find one.

I cannot apply to the Minister for a licence to use a metal detector for work purposes, as he only issues licences for qualified archaeologist-types to use metal detectors on named sites.

I seem to be in a real grey area, with a possible €63,000 fine and three months imprisonment according to the statute book for using a metal detector in the course of my (non-archaeological) work :eek:

If I'm ever hauled up on it, I suppose I'll just have to state my case and hope to the best?

No, you would be fine as metal detecting is part of your job description. So it is clear that your intent in using the device, when you discovered the object, was to find pipes etc. However if you took your metal detector to the grounds of a church yard on your day off, then yes you would be in big trouble (and rightly so! )

justforgroups

chops018 wrote: »

Would this not come under Treasure Trove.

The main case being Webb .v. Ireland (1988) - where a hoard was found that included a gold chalice. The plaintiffs were told by the museum that they would be "honourably treated" if they gave up the hoard. The case made its way to the Supreme Court after the museum didn't follow through. Finlay J. said that the plaintiffs did not have a prima facie title to the hoard. The landowners had a superior right, to which the State succeeded an agreement.

The argument then came to whether the State had a prerogative right to Treasure Trove, as the defendant could claim title and the plaintiff a reward. Article 10 of the constitution (state dominion over mineral rights) was used to ground the defendants claim to title. However the plaintiffs were grounded to have a legitimate expectation to be honourably treated and had a right to an reward.

As a result of this case section 2(1) of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1994 was created which provides:
"Without prejudice to any other rights howsoever arising in relation to any archaeological object found before the coming into operation of this section, there shall stand vested in the state ownership of an archaeological object found in the State after coming into operation of this section where such an object has no known owner when it was found".

No, that addressed the question of who owns the object(s). The state just took them off the finders, which was challenged as breach of property rights or something. Cutting a long story short, the amendment addresses that.

justforgroups

whippet wrote: »

and get a €5 for your troubles

I often wondered what the law was. I have a relative who owns a listed building on a fair chunk of land (an old estate house) and it goes back about 800 - 900 years. I always thought of what might be found if I went wandering around the grounds with a metal detector.

You'd probably find a night in the cells That would be illegal under the law as you are clearly looking for an "archaeological object" on the grounds of a listed building.

slowburner

Obfuscation and the preceding posts from the OP.
I rest my case.

lawfilly

Just to let the OP know that metal detecting on a beach is highly illegal due to the present of a large number of shipwrecks on Irish beaches and foreshore.

These wrecks have been cataloged by the Underwater Archaeology Unit of the National monuments service.

Therefore the operator of a metal detector on any Irish beach constitutes a criminal offence as you may be in the vicinity of such wrecks.

It is always and remains the case illegal to operate a metal detector in Ireland with the permission of the the appropriate Minister for State. Archaeological objects can turn up anywhere and the law is not confined to simply sites near recognized monuments

http://www.museum.ie/en/list/metal-detecting-law.aspx

Grolschevik

I think the OP needs to re-examine the definition of 'archaeological object', as outlined above.

Given that definition, what in the world could he possibly be legally detecting?

(The case of the guy using it for detecting cables etc in the course of work is obviously different from the scenarios posited in the OP. Which ended with the exhortation, if you remember, 'happy detecting').

Paulhearn

You’re right lawfilly. Before using detector it’s better to complete all legal process as there is a chance to turn up archaeological object anywhere. Metal detector comes under broad varieties of magnetometer. Depending upon the use you can intend to choose the detector but better to complete legal procedures at the earliest. I’ve a metal detector bought from Gem System which is used as part of my job which has a license.

kajo

lawfilly:

metal detecting on a beach is highly illegal

Would love to know where you found that information or is it just something you made up?
I have a letter from the Ministers office that contradicts the contents of your post.

In my letter he specifically said it was ok to detect on beaches and other lands.
I take it the words other lands means all unprotected public parks and lands that belongs to the state.

Parliamentary Question: Metal Detecting
Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Mr Jimmy Deenihan, T.D.)

State owned lands are generally open to the public. Access to private lands is a matter for the owners or managers.

If you use a detector within the law you should not have any problems while you enjoy the hobby of detecting.
We have a number of metal detecting clubs in Ireland most can be found via links on the Internet.
Some of these clubs are running a number of years without any issues legal or otherwise.
They openly metal detect within the law and none of them were arrested for pursuing their hobby.

They are upfront honest people enjoying a passive healthy hobby.

Jakub25

Is it this letter Kajo?
If yes, it is legal to use metal detector at unprotected public parks and lands that belongs to the state and private lands.