Driving N.I reg car in the south

nick1984

Iv'e looked on here about the laws and driving on a N.I reg car in the south from the threads there all a bit confusing and not make a lot of sense
from what I can see is that as soon as the car hits the border and into the south you have 1 day to vrt the vehicle and have it on southern plates
is this true if you live in the south and that's were the car is intending to stay

what if the car is ncted and taxed in the south but is displaying N.I plates im only going by what the owner has told me don't know if this is true or can you even do that

is there a certain amount of time in which to vrt the car say 1 months grace or what

corktina

You have 7 days to book an NCTS VRT inspection and a total of 30 to complete re-registration.

You cannot NCT and Tax a car on NI plates

clarkey1980

nick1984 wrote: »

Iv'e looked on here about the laws and driving on a N.I reg car in the south from the threads there all a bit confusing and not make a lot of sense
from what I can see is that as soon as the car hits the border and into the south you have 1 day to vrt the vehicle and have it on southern plates
is this true if you live in the south and that's were the car is intending to stay

what if the car is ncted and taxed in the south but is displaying N.I plates im only going by what the owner has told me don't know if this is true or can you even do that

is there a certain amount of time in which to vrt the car say 1 months grace or what

From VRT Website :

In order to register an unregistered vehicle (or one previously registered outside the State) you must make an appointment with the NCTS within 7 days of its entry into the State to have a pre-registration examination of the vehicle carried out. You must complete the registration process and pay VRT at the NCTS Centre within 30 days of the arrival of the vehicle in the State. Further details of how to book the examination are available on the NCTS website

biko

Are you (Southern) Irish? If so you can't drive around in a foreign car.
You can buy a car in NI and drive it home and to the VRT.
Did you read the Importing from UK thread? I think it's explained in detail there.

Edit - the others have explained it better.

henryporter

AFAIK it's one month that you get, after that you'll be paying penalties on top of the VRT and also arrears on the motor tax. Having said that, there's plenty of shysters around my way never bother registering and seem to get away with it. There's also an insurance implication - most companies will only cover you for a months driving, after that you're at risk.

nick1984

right that's cleared that up so i have to nct the car aswell as vrt it at the same time right may get onto the vrt calculator and see what there going to rob me off the vehicle is already in the south has been for the past few weeks

corktina

no the NCT test comes later after re-registration..they just inspect it initially to assess the amount of VRT payable.

nick1984

ah right so they inspect it before hand and value it then work out the vrt i though vrt was calculated on emissions now

corktina

yep, there's a calculator online, but the NCTS need to check for extras and exactly what model you are presenting

NIMAN

I live close to the border, along with a lot of NI residents who have relocated to the RoI, but continue to drive around with NI reg cars which are registered to parents houses, siblings houses etc.

They are in the wrong although many have been doing it for up to a decade and not been caught. But I do know people who have been caught by Customs checkpoints and have had to pay fines and pay the VRT to register.

All the other details on this thread are correct.

nick1984

well i will be clearing the vrt as soon as i can just wanted to know could i drive the vehicle for a few days to and from work

Del2005

nick1984 wrote: »

well i will be clearing the vrt as soon as i can just wanted to know could i drive the vehicle for a few days to and from work

Book the appointment for a VRT check with the NCTS when you buy it and carry the confirmation with you. Don't forget to do all the checks before buying it.

cmore123

Is there not some sort of exemption if you have owned the northern car IN the north for some years, and don't plan to sell it within a similar period after moving south?

If not, it would probably be as easy to sell it in the north and buy another in the south!

RebelButtMunch

NIMAN wrote: »

I live close to the border, along with a lot of NI residents who have relocated to the RoI, but continue to drive around with NI reg cars which are registered to parents houses, siblings houses etc.

They are in the wrong although many have been doing it for up to a decade and not been caught. But I do know people who have been caught by Customs checkpoints and have had to pay fines and pay the VRT to register.

All the other details on this thread are correct.

Ahh now I know why someone on my road has been driving a n.i reg car for well over a year. Their in laws are from belfast. Grr.

NIMAN

Well to drive a NI car for years in the South, you obviously need an address in the North to tax and insure it at.

As for taking a car over free of VRT, yes that can be done if you have owned it for 6 months + in the North, then you relocate. Your 1st car imported into the South is free if you move residency. But most border hoppers ignored the chance to get the plates changed for free, instead brassnecked it with a NI reg, then complained about Customs whenever they fined you for breaking the law.

stealthyspeeder

NIMAN wrote: »

I live close to the border, along with a lot of NI residents who have relocated to the RoI, but continue to drive around with NI reg cars which are registered to parents houses, siblings houses etc.

If their personal ties (family ties) are in a different country to the country of their occupational ties, the country of their personal ties is taken as country in which they should register their car (their country of "Normal Residence").

Unless they are married, your neighbours are doing exactly what they should according to the law.

NIMAN wrote: »

They are in the wrong

No they are not (according to what you have described).

NIMAN wrote: »

although many have been doing it for up to a decade and not been caught.

If they are entitled to drive NI reg cars, and they are "challenged" by customs, they will never be "caught".

vibe666

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

If their personal ties (family ties) are in a different country to the country of their occupational ties, the country of their personal ties is taken as country in which they should register their car (their country of "Normal Residence").

Unless they are married, your neighbours are doing exactly what they should according to the law.

surely (for the purposes of the law) your "country of normal residence" is where you actually live for the majority of the year, rather than where your family lives?

I would imagine that given we are talking about registering a vehicle and paying (or rather not paying) VRT, that this would count as "for tax purposes" which revenue defines as:

Your residence for tax purposes depends on the number of days that you are present in Ireland during a tax year (A tax year means the period from 1 January to 31 December).

You are resident for tax purposes for a year if:

You spend 183 days or more in Ireland in that year from 1 January – 31 December or,
If you spend 280 days or more in Ireland over a period of two consecutive tax years, you will be regarded as resident for the second tax year. For example, if you spend 140 days here in Year 1 and 150 days here in Year 2, you will be resident in Ireland for Year 2.
For tax years up to 2008, each day you are present at midnight counts as one day in the calculation of residency for tax purposes. From tax year 2009 onwards, the midnight rule no longer applies, and you are treated as being present in the State, if you are present in the State at any time during that day.

maybe i'm wrong, but it seems logical to me.

stealthyspeeder

vibe666 wrote: »

surely (for the purposes of the law) your "country of normal residence" is where you actually live for the majority of the year, rather than where your family lives?

This "rule of thumb" works for 99% of the population. It does not work so well in border areas or when applied to people who have moved to the country to work.

The actual law in relation to where a vehicle should be registered is here

In these Regulations "normal residence" means the place where a person usually lives, that is to say, where he lives for at least 185 days in each year, because of personal and occupational ties, or, in the case of a person with no occupational ties, because of personal ties. However, the normal residence of a person whose occupational ties are in a different place from his personal ties and who consequently lives in turn in different places situated in 2 or more countries shall be regarded as being the place of this personal ties Provided that such person returns to the place of his personal ties regularly. This proviso shall not apply if the person is living in a country in order to carry out a task of a definite duration.

vibe666 wrote: »

I would imagine that given we are talking about registering a vehicle and paying (or rather not paying) VRT, that this would count as "for tax purposes" which revenue defines as:

maybe i'm wrong, but it seems logical to me.

For Tax purposes? thats a little vague... I assume you mean as per the taxes consolidation act 1997? (which groups residential criteria for Income, Corporation and Capital Gains taxes together)

For the purposes of the Acts, an individual shall be resident in the State for a year of assessment if the individual is present in the State— at any one time or several times in the year of assessment for a period in the whole amounting to 183 days or more.

Motor vehicles are fundamentally different to income, capital gains and corporations. Therefore they need to be taxed differently with seperate legislation supporting the said taxes. Vehicles are tangible objects used to move around and between countries therefore the residential requirements are completely different. The important point is there is different legislation here, with different residential criteria.

Its ok for a layperson to be wrong, and confuse these concepts, but the revenue cannot be doing this.

vibe666

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

This "rule of thumb" works for 99% of the population. It does not work so well in border areas or when applied to people who have moved to the country to work.

The actual law in relation to where a vehicle should be registered is here

For Tax purposes? thats a little vague... I assume you mean as per the taxes consolidation act 1997? (which groups residential criteria for Income, Corporation and Capital Gains taxes together)

Motor vehicles are fundamentally different to income, capital gains and corporations. Therefore they need to be taxed differently with seperate legislation supporting the said taxes. Vehicles are tangible objects used to move around and between countries therefore the residential requirements are completely different. The important point is there is different legislation here, with different residential criteria.

Its ok for a layperson to be wrong, and confuse these concepts, but the revenue cannot be doing this.

thank you, i like it.

I had meant the revenue definition of "for tax purposes" given that it was vehicle registration tax we were talking about, but what you say makes more sense as a car can be easily (by definition) moved around across borders.

ardmacha

I live close to the border, along with a lot of NI residents who have relocated to the RoI, but continue to drive around with NI reg cars which are registered to parents houses, siblings houses etc.

These person may well be covered by the family ties. If not, then they are entitled to transfer of residency. In general, I imagine that if the customs disagreed with their situation that that anyone genuinely entitled to a transfer of residency will simply be told to get this done, in the first instance, rather than be fined.

I would imagine that given we are talking about registering a vehicle and paying (or rather not paying) VRT, that this would count as "for tax purposes" which revenue defines as:

this is an income tax concept, the VRT is normal residence with reference to family ties as described above. These threads are always full of pointless references to things other than the actual VRT regulations.

NIMAN

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

If their personal ties (family ties) are in a different country to the country of their occupational ties, the country of their personal ties is taken as country in which they should register their car (their country of "Normal Residence").

Unless they are married, your neighbours are doing exactly what they should according to the law.



No they are not (according to what you have described).



If they are entitled to drive NI reg cars, and they are "challenged" by customs, they will never be "caught".

sorry you are wrong, but you may have picked me up wrongly.

These people are resident in RoI, and have been for many years. Its irrelevant where your family live, otherwise I wouldn't have paid loads of VRT since I relocated 14 years ago.

They are RoI residents, and under the law, cannot drive NI registered vehicles.

Sheldons Brain

NIMAN wrote: »

sorry you are wrong, but you may have picked me up wrongly.

These people are resident in RoI, and have been for many years. Its irrelevant where your family live, otherwise I wouldn't have paid loads of VRT since I relocated 14 years ago.

They are RoI residents, and under the law, cannot drive NI registered vehicles.

Resident how? Did they buy a house, build a house, get married?

Actually people moving to districts close to the border could be considered to have moved, if they only moved a short distance, as it would not be for work reasons.

stealthyspeeder

NIMAN wrote: »

sorry you are wrong, but you may have picked me up wrongly.

Im not wrong. The legislation is right there (links in my post). You appear to incorrect in your understanding of being a "resident" for tax purposes vs having your "normal residence" in a country for the purposes of vehicle registration.

NIMAN wrote: »

These people are resident in RoI, and have been for many years. Its irrelevant where your family live

You seem to be unaware that a person can be "resident" in Ireland for Income tax (and capital gains and corporation tax), whilst being "normally resident" in the UK (Northern Ireland) for the purposes of vehicle registration (and thus Vehicle registration tax)?

The law for vehicle registration is very specific, it goes to great length to specifically define the term "normal residence". It is dependent on your personal ties (family) and your occupational ties.

NIMAN wrote: »

otherwise I wouldn't have paid loads of VRT since I relocated 14 years ago.

Understand now, why you dont want what I say to be true.... but unfortunately it is.

If you have no family ties (martial or children) in the Republic of Ireland, (or bought property in ROI - this is the other "personal tie") you have been paying over the odds for your car tax and vehicle registration for the last 14 years.

If you have family (or property) in the ROI, then your like the other 99% of the population - personal (family/property) ties in ROI + Job in ROI = car must be registered in ROI.

NIMAN wrote: »

They are RoI residents, and under the law, cannot drive NI registered vehicles.

People who have their "normal residence" in Ireland cannot drive foreign registered vehicles in Ireland. This is factually correct. Someone who is resident (for other taxes) but "normally resident" in a foreign country, can and legally should drive a foreign registered vehicle in Ireland.

I dont know the specifics of these people who you refer to, you know them not me. But I do know what the law is, and you appear to be misinterpreting it.

If they spend most of their time in ROI, and work in ROI, but their family (personal ties) are in Northern Ireland, then the correct country for them to legally register their car in, is Northern Ireland. This is a legal fact with legislation in place to back it up. (Also its an EU wide directive that all EU countries have incorporated)

The Irish Statute Book has it all in black and white on their website.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1992/en/act/pub/0009/sec0135.html

135.—A vehicle which is temporarily brought into the State may be exempted by the Commissioners from the requirement to be registered...if the vehicle is—(a) brought into the State by a person established outside the State for his private or business use

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/si/0060.html

2. (1) In these Regulations—...
"person established outside the State" means an individual having his normal residence outside the State"....

2) ( a ) In these Regulations "normal residence" means the place where a person usually lives, that is to say, where he lives for at least 185 days in each year, because of personal and occupational ties, or, in the case of a person with no occupational ties, because of personal ties. However, the normal residence of a person whose occupational ties are in a different place from his personal ties and who consequently lives in turn in different places situated in 2 or more countries shall be regarded as being the place of this personal ties: Provided that such person returns to the place of his personal ties regularly. This proviso shall not apply if the person is living in a country in order to carry out a task of a definite duration.

NIMAN

So we agree, I have a tie to RoI, i own a property there, same as all the VRT dodgers on the border.

This is what I said in #21, we are all resident.

stealthyspeeder

NIMAN wrote: »

So why are Customs continually on the border stopping NI reg cars and fining people?

To try and get as much revenue as they can. People not knowing the law certainly helps them with this. :rolleyes:

NIMAN wrote: »

I have been following this problem for many years and I have never once heard anyone use your argument to get away with paying VRT.

So have I. My position is not an argument, its the law. Its not being used to "get away" with anything. Your position is an argument, and it has been refuted with both logic and legislation.

NIMAN wrote: »

If your permanent residence is in RoI, then your car must be have a RoI plate. Despite how you might want to argue, thats the law.

No. Again, your ignoring the relevant legislation and introducing concepts for other pieces of legislation (permanent residence? - wheres that referenced anywhere in relation to vehicles? ).

Im afraid your interpretation of the law muddled, unsubstantiated and incorrect.

The relevant residence is "normal residence" and it clearly defined. The law shows that what I have said is correct.

grainnewhale

NIMAN wrote: »

So we agree, I have a tie to RoI, i own a property there, same as all the VRT dodgers on the border.

This is what I said in #21, we are all resident.

so you agree you were wrong

NIMAN

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

To try and get as much revenue as they can. People not knowing the law certainly helps them with this. :rolleyes:



So have I. My position is not an argument, its the law. Its not being used to "get away" with anything. Your position is an argument, and it has been refuted with both logic and legislation.



No. Again, your ignoring the relevant legislation and introducing concepts for other pieces of legislation (permanent residence? - wheres that referenced anywhere in relation to vehicles? ).

Im afraid your interpretation of the law muddled, unsubstantiated and incorrect.

The relevant residence is "normal residence" and it clearly defined. The law shows that what I have said is correct.

Normal residence to me is where you own your house.
There's no point in arguing on, as I believe people who decide to buy a house in RoI must drive a RoI reg car. That is all I have been arguing all along. Customs believe this too. this is the only criteria I am talking about, as I mentioned people who fulfill this criteria, and these are the people being fined and having cars confiscated (I personally know some of these).

You are trying to muddy my argument by talking about things that don't come into my argument, perhaps to sound superior,who knows.

Superdedupity

I think you are both talking about two separate sets of circumstances, both of which you have clearly highlighted

NIMAN

It sounds like we are, but the people I am talking about are breaking the law. End of.

stealthyspeeder

NIMAN wrote: »

Normal residence to me is where you own your house.

Doesnt matter what it means to you, its what it means to the eyes of the law that matters.

The law would confirm your opinion if your talking about property ownership which you mention for the 1st time in post 24. Up until then, your position was completely contrary to the law. As you mention they own property in the ROI then their "NORMAL RESIDENCE" is in the ROI.

NIMAN wrote: »

There's no point in arguing on,

Rarely is when you realize there is no argument!

NIMAN wrote: »

as I believe people who decide to buy a house in RoI must drive a RoI reg car. That is all I have been arguing all along. Customs believe this too. this is the only criteria I am talking about, as I mentioned people who fulfill this criteria, and these are the people being fine and having cars confiscated.

in post 24, your attitude did change (after your quick edit)

I quoted you before that edit and you were still barking up the wrong tree at that point!

NIMAN wrote: »

You are trying to muddy my argument by talking about things that don't come into my argument.

Not muddying any argument, there is no argument. What I have said is ENTIRELY factual, and disagreement with it isnt an argument its just wrong!

NIMAN

I have not changed my story as I went along, I have had the same people in my head with every piece I typed.

Now the fact that I may have worded it wrongly, or you picked me up wrongly, is a different issue.

nick1984

well just to let you know I can drive the car as far as vrt nct office to have it assessed and valued.
This vrt malarky is rather stupidly calculated they calculate the vrt by the condition of the car and its value I think there should be a set price on the age of the car or second hand value on the market or something. I priced the vrt on the online calculator and its the same price to vrt a 2.0 golf gti as it is a 1.4 golf this to me is ridiculous. How can they put a price of the vrt on a car on a cars condition so two golfs sitting side by side same spec but because one is rougher than the other the price is different hmmm bit stupid I thinks.

anyways I'm going to have it assessed for vrt price and pay it whatever the outcome is as I bought the car very under market price.

stealthyspeeder

NIMAN wrote: »

I have not changed my story as I went along, I have had the same people in my head with every piece I typed.

Now the fact that I may have worded it wrongly, or you picked me up wrongly, is a different issue.

This is a forum. All discussion is based on the words that are posted, no other poster can know what is going on in your head as you post. I was quite specific in multi quoting you, and you did say things that were factually incorrect in regard to your understanding of residence for the purposes of vehicle registration.

If you "forget" to post something fundamental to validating your position, other posters are not "picking you up wrongly", your position can only rationally be interpreted as incorrect up until that point.

Your point also assumes these people own their ROI houses. Unless you have seen the deeds for these houses, I dont know how you can be sure of that. If they rent (either to a landlord, or family) they would not be required to register their car in the ROI.

colm_mcm

nick1984 wrote: »

well just to let you know I can drive the car as far as vrt nct office to have it assessed and valued.
This vrt malarky is rather stupidly calculated they calculate the vrt by the condition of the car and its value I think there should be a set price on the age of the car or second hand value on the market or something. I priced the vrt on the online calculator and its the same price to vrt a 2.0 golf gti as it is a 1.4 golf this to me is ridiculous. How can they put a price of the vrt on a car on a cars condition so two golfs sitting side by side same spec but because one is rougher than the other the price is different hmmm bit stupid I thinks.

anyways I'm going to have it assessed for vrt price and pay it whatever the outcome is as I bought the car very under market price.

Condition isn't a factor at all. Purely assessed on emissions and age. There is also a reduction in vrt for higher mileage.
There is a set price determined for each model/spec called an OMSP or open market selling price.