is haddington road going to make life tough of part time/causal teachers?

wishinonastar

Hey teachers.
have 6 hours teaching this year....some days I feel lucky to have that much and the peace of mind that goes with knowing I am someway sorted until june at least. I rely on a lot of substitute work to up my hours/pay.

As far as I can make out from pouring over the haddington road agreement, teachers like me and hundreds others are basically going to have practically no income owing to the fact that all teachers in the school will have to do five extra classes a week for free.

Pretty peeved at this as all the union talk was how haddington road was going to help teachers like me.

happywithlife

Yes but it was well flagged by those that actually read up on HRA - I do know a young teacher that would be affected by this and could not believe it when he admitted post ballot that he hadn't voted cos he didn't understand / couldn't decide... Probably shouldn't type what I called him in my head!!

teacherhead

wishinonastar wrote: »

Hey teachers.
have 6 hours teaching this year....some days I feel lucky to have that much and the peace of mind that goes with knowing I am someway sorted until june at least. I rely on a lot of substitute work to up my hours/pay.

As far as I can make out from pouring over the haddington road agreement, teachers like me and hundreds others are basically going to have practically no income owing to the fact that all teachers in the school will have to do five extra classes a week for free.

Pretty peeved at this as all the union talk was how haddington road was going to help teachers like me.

They don't have to give 5 periods a week, they have to be available 5 periods a week for a start.

5 x 35 min periods = 175 mins which will burn the 43 hours in 15 weeks
5 x 40 min periods = 200 mins (over 3 hours) so 4 x 40 = 160 which will be at 43 hours in 16 weeks.


take a teacher on 22 hours per week, if absent for two weeks, causing one full teachers allocation 9f subbing to be used in two weeks. that's if it is certified leave, if its two weeks it will be so it makes sense for a school to get a sub as, firstly its just wrong not to and, its easier because if yup use up all your subbing you'll have nothing left.

the above takes no account of supervision which is required in every school I know. this could be of the order of 30 mins a week so in a school year. this is 16.5 hours a year which only leaves 26.5 hours for subbing 48 mins a week for the year.

bear in mind, as I await an attack, the above is roughly done and doesn't take account of the nuances of every school. what it does do, I think, is offer a balanced overview of how the s&s scheme should be implemented.

basically, anyone doing both supervision and substitution should only have one class most weeks with a second class maybe every second or third week, give of take. if this is not the case then you will use up your hours very rapidly or else have some weeks where there is no supervision required.

we have been implementing the HRA since tui accepted without issue and I can say that only one teacher had to cover three periods in a week on one occasion. some weeks a few teachers got done for two. the person who got 3 did none the following week.

the point is that there is not enough juice in the tank to cover all absences so subs will be needed now and forever more. if schools are not hiring subs now they will need to eventually ad they will more than likely run out of hours. unions should ensure that where a sub can be hired it is done.

wishinonastar

thanks for replies. Voted and used my voice....teachers like me haven't a hope of surviving if subs aren't used!! Schools will always need a level of flexibility im sure.

smallgarden

I'm guessing anything short term will be covered by s&s but anything long term they'll get subs in. There will definitely be a lot less casual short term subbing

solerina

teacherhead wrote: »

They don't have to give 5 periods a week, they have to be available 5 periods a week for a start.

5 x 35 min periods = 175 mins which will burn the 43 hours in 15 weeks
5 x 40 min periods = 200 mins (over 3 hours) so 4 x 40 = 160 which will be at 43 hours in 16 week

Thanks this has helped me figure out it a bit...as in I did understand HR before I voted no but I didn't really understand how things would work out on the S&S front....In our school we currently do 50 mins per week supervision and 40 mins per week substitution (obviously if we are called)....so from your rough calculations maybe we wont need to do as much supervision which would at least be something (looking for some threads of silver in this dirty lining).
One thing is...do we count the 43 hours as classes actually given or classes we are available for ?? Cause they could be very different and it would mean that we would need a tally kept to ensure everyone did their share.

teacherhead

solerina wrote: »

Thanks this has helped me figure out it a bit...as in I did understand HR before I voted no but I didn't really understand how things would work out on the S&S front....In our school we currently do 50 mins per week supervision and 40 mins per week substitution (obviously if we are called)....so from your rough calculations maybe we wont need to do as much supervision which would at least be something (looking for some threads of silver in this dirty lining).
One thing is...do we count the 43 hours as classes actually given or classes we are available for ?? Cause they could be very different and it would mean that we would need a tally kept to ensure everyone did their share.

It's classes given. Already you are looking at having 27 hours done in supervision so you only need to do 16 in substitution which is 24 x 40 min periods. you probably have ten done already!

I would expect that whoever does cover in your school is lloking after keeping a tally - they should be!

Pwpane

teacherhead wrote: »

It's classes given. Already you are looking at having 27 hours done in supervision so you only need to do 16 in substitution which is 24 x 40 min periods. you probably have ten done already!

I would expect that whoever does cover in your school is lloking after keeping a tally - they should be!

Are you sure? From the ASTI website:

ASTI members participating in S&S duties under the Haddington Road Agreement are required to be available for 5 periods a week and to deliver up to 43 hours supervision and substitution during the school year.

derb12

In my school (pre-HRA) we nominated 3 periods, but if we got called upon to fill in for someone on the first one then we could "relax" for the rest of the week - as we couldn't be called on twice.
I thought I read somewhere that we now (post-HRA) nominate 5 periods but could only be called on for 2. So once you had covered twice you couldn't be called on again that week. Is the weekly upper limit gone now?

rainbowtrout

derb12 wrote: »

In my school (pre-HRA) we nominated 3 periods, but if we got called upon to fill in for someone on the first one then we could "relax" for the rest of the week - as we couldn't be called on twice.
I thought I read somewhere that we now (post-HRA) nominate 5 periods but could only be called on for 2. So once you had covered twice you couldn't be called on again that week. Is the weekly upper limit gone now?

You can be asked to do up to 3 hours per week. It's all in HRA.

seavill

Pwpane wrote: »

Are you sure? From the ASTI website:

Yes. That means as was the case previously the numbers have just been upped.

At the start if the week you are available for. 5
If for example it's one per day and you get caught Monday Tuesday and Wednesday then you are 100% free Thursday and Friday.
If you get caught Monday. Not Tuesday Wednesday. You must still be available Thursday and Friday. You may or may not get caught. But you must be available for 5 up to the point you have covered 3

Pwpane

I knew that! Just getting mithered at this stage with all the terms and conditions and documents and 'clarifications' etc...

whiteandlight

One thing not mentioned here is that even with the opt out there will be far more teachers in the s and s scheme as well as the extra hours. It's those teachers which will end up reducing the substitution available by a significant amount. Even if only say 5 new teachers are forced into the scheme for the first time that's 215 extra hours available or nearly 10 weeks pay of a sub!

Red Waterlily

I'm still trying to understand the way corridor supervision fits in with the nominating of five periods. The HRA and ASTI information constantly refers to nominating five periods per week to be called for a limit of three and I can find no reference to break times and lunch times - the supervision that happens outside of class times. So am I right in thinking that, when you take corridor supervision into account, we will really be nominating about 3 or 4 class periods a week for substitution and then a combination of 15 and 30 minute blocks during lunch and break time for supervision. Supervision and substitution combined together adding up to five periods. OR are we nominating five periods (just as it says on the tin) for substitution alone and then ALSO nominating the 15 and 30 minute blocks during lunch and break etc on top of the five periods? I'm guessing it's the former - but not sure yet.

seavill

5 periods nominated max of 3 to be done

Total s&s to add up to 3 hours a week max up to a total of 43 over the year.

Your 3 hours is usually made up of a certain portion of supervision every week then up to a max of 3 hours with classes to cover included.

In some schools it's 50 mins supervision others 30 others 40.
In mine it is 2 15 min slots of supervision plus your classes that you may or may not be called for.

If you do 30 mins every week that adds up to16.5 hours over the entire year. That leaves you with 26.5 hours over the year you could be caught for classes.
That's approx 40-40 minute classes you could have to cover over the year. Over 1 per week. Some weeks you will not get called at all so you may get caught for 2 or 3 one week which makes up for last 2 weeks you didn't get caught. Etc. You would need to keep a watch on your hours over the year

Godge

wishinonastar wrote: »

Hey teachers.
have 6 hours teaching this year....some days I feel lucky to have that much and the peace of mind that goes with knowing I am someway sorted until june at least. I rely on a lot of substitute work to up my hours/pay.

As far as I can make out from pouring over the haddington road agreement, teachers like me and hundreds others are basically going to have practically no income owing to the fact that all teachers in the school will have to do five extra classes a week for free.

Pretty peeved at this as all the union talk was how haddington road was going to help teachers like me.

Like every agreement, there are pluses and minuses.

Less hours available for part-time teachers is one minus.

CIDs after 3 years instead of 4 is a plus.

The review of part-time provision is interesting as it could provide both pluses and minuses as well as winners and losers. If, for example, it recommends amalgamations of jobs to provide more full-time jobs, that will obviously be to the benefit of those who get the full-time jobs but if that is in a zero-sum situation where there is no increase in the number of total hours across the system, some part-timers will lose everything. You would assume that the Dept is planning to use the expected increase in student numbers to alleviate the possibility of such job losses.

solerina

teacherhead wrote: »

It's classes given. Already you are looking at having 27 hours done in supervision so you only need to do 16 in substitution which is 24 x 40 min periods. you probably have ten done already!

I would expect that whoever does cover in your school is lloking after keeping a tally - they should be!

To be quite honest I would be shocked if the DP has kept a tally...before HR we just did our 50 mins on corridor and were available for our 3 classes...she called you when required...we didn't have this 43 hours business so Id imagine there is no tally from before Christmas...I presume that means we can take it that those in S&S before Christmas have 50 mins + 40 mins done per week which adds up to 24 hours (16 weeks) so far this year. (plus 90 mins this week).

seavill

There was always a max number of hours you had to do. As far as I know all schools have to keep a tally. Hr has just increased the number you can do

solerina

seavill wrote: »

There was always a max number of hours you had to do. As far as I know all schools have to keep a tally. Hr has just increased the number you can do

Maybe but we used to sign up to do 90 mins per week and we applied to be paid as if we had 90 mins per week done...we never actually checked to see how much was actually done....and I doubt if management did either

seavill

You get paid the same if you cover 2 hours or 30 hours over the year

teacherhead

The old agreement was for 37 hours per year. 90mins a week is 49 hours.

90 mins was an upper limit, this changer to 2.25 hours under CP1 and 3 hours under HRA.

It's not about classes only or three hours only.

You do a COMBINATION of supervision and substitution to reach the max of 43 hours per year. The weekly max is 3 hours.

if you did 5 periods at 40 mins that would be three hours 20 mins - over the limit - so in a classes only scenario you could get caught for 4 x 40 = 160 mins (2h 40m)

I understand that in some schools there is a minimal amount of supervision needed so teachers may be required for substitution only.

MacGyver007

seavill wrote: »

You would need to keep a watch on your hours over the year

I know someone working on something to solve that problem

sitstill

MacGyver007 wrote: »

I know someone working on something to solve that problem

Are you going to tell us what that is?

Miss Lockhart

I can only speak for my school but yes, it has had significant negative impact on part time teachers. Two day to day subs who attended each morning and always had work were told they were no longer required and most part time teachers have had no subbing most weeks with one or two getting at most two periods in a week.

MacGyver007

sitstill wrote: »

Are you going to tell us what that is?

A colleague is currently designing a simple spreadsheet (nothing fancy) that keeps a record of your yearly S&S. All you do is enter the duration of each class and supervision period you have to do and for each week highlight the period(s) you were called for. The spreadsheet then tells you how much S&S you did that week and also a running total for the year to date.

teacherhead

MacGyver007 wrote: »

A colleague is currently designing a simple spreadsheet (nothing fancy) that keeps a record of your yearly S&S. All you do is enter the duration of each class and supervision period you have to do and for each week highlight the period(s) you were called for. The spreadsheet then tells you how much S&S you did that week and also a running total for the year to date.

I have a similar monthly tally sheet for the whole staff - even tells % remaining due - very good for balancing the requirement among everyone as % reflects pro rata better than total hours/mins.