High protein soya diet for calves

dungfly

I aim to rear replacement calves from birth and calve at two years. I want to feed a high protein diet with an appropriate energy ratio.
Can calves digest soya (36% protein). Any suggestions?

bbam

I've used soy in the past to boost the overall calf diet and it worked well.. There are some good articles on the teagasc website and other websites about the effects of increasing the protein and results on calves...

From memory a diet above 23% yields no extra longterm growth as calves reared at that level reached the same weight by a year old...

Protein is expensive so feeding the correct amount is important.. And since it can't be stored any excess is just passed through as expensive waste..:cool:

dungfly

bbam wrote: »

I've used soy in the past to boost the overall calf diet and it worked well.. There are some good articles on the teagasc website and other websites about the effects of increasing the protein and results on calves...

From memory a diet above 23% yields no extra longterm growth as calves reared at that level reached the same weight by a year old...

Protein is expensive so feeding the correct amount is important.. And since it can't be stored any excess is just passed through as expensive waste..:cool:

What about the protein:energy ratio? My aim is to produce good quality replacement heifers. If I introduce a greater amount but balanced energy:protein ratio can I achieve greater lean weights?

delaval

dungfly wrote: »

I aim to rear replacement calves from birth and calve at two years. I want to feed a high protein diet with an appropriate energy ratio.
Can calves digest soya (36% protein). Any suggestions?

Are they dairy calves

loveta

Will these replacements be let out on grass in the first year? if yes you wont need as high a protein ration, i am assuming they are dairy calves..

bbam

dungfly wrote: »

What about the protein:energy ratio? My aim is to produce good quality replacement heifers. If I introduce a greater amount but balanced energy:protein ratio can I achieve greater lean weights?

This at the edge of my understanding but a growing calf requires x grams of protein per day to manufacture more calf.
Any amount above this is wasted and will simply pass through like euro coins through a cattle grid. Balancing it with energy will make no difference to the equation. The animal can only produce so many new cells, feeding above this level is not required.

Farmer Pudsey

In my opinion Calcium is as important as protein and is way cheaper. Suckler calves have adequate calcium from cows milk most dairy bred calves do not. Feed 10-20 grams/100kgs LW of a feed grade calcium. This is often sold as cubicle lime.

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

Are they dairy calves

what would you make of calves spending the first year of there lives indoors on a specific diet so that they are max weight and size at 12 months. wouldnt be much dearer than outdoors as calves get plenty of grain on grass. suppose it would depend on off season feed price. would allow more dairy farmers to keep matters inhouse if restricted for land area

jersey101

bob charles wrote: »

what would you make of calves spending the first year of there lives indoors on a specific diet so that they are max weight and size at 12 months. wouldnt be much dearer than outdoors as calves get plenty of grain on grass. suppose it would depend on off season feed price. would allow more dairy farmers to keep matters inhouse if restricted for land area

Was in the north last year and thats exactly what they do. We asked them why not let them out to grass its much easier. They said grass is only dirt. Only place for it was in a pit. And this lad had 250 cows under one roof with nearly 10 tractors and all his own silage gear. Must be doing something right

jersey101

These were heifers in one farm in Birmingham last September. Never seen grass. Think they were near 16 months old

Farmer Pudsey

jersey101 wrote: »

These were heifers in one farm in Birmingham last September. Never seen grass. Think they were near 16 months old

Wonder if it what effects this would have on the animals rumen if working in a grass based system like in Ireland. I know the rumen will develop right if not better than in a outside grazing system. However will the rumen be adapted to use grass and will it have the right bio system to handle same.

Biggest issue with dairy farmers outsourcing the rearing of calves is that they will not pay the true economic cost and allow a margin to the rearer in lots of cases. I have seen figure of 80c/day and less for the summer rather than a targeted weight/frame gain and incalf percentage.

bob charles

jersey101 wrote: »

These were heifers in one farm in Birmingham last September. Never seen grass. Think they were near 16 months old

well they dont seem to be much of an advertisement for such a system

dungfly

delaval wrote: »

Are they dairy calves

I am rearing friesian replacement dairy calves. I know the protein:energy ratio is important in order to make efficient use of high protein diets. I also know that excess protein is wasted through excretion. I am hoping to make use of the protein:energy ratio for both pre and post weaned calves so that I can supplement their diet effectively.

What does the protein:energy ratio mean in practice in terms of diet targets and balances?

Livestockmad

dungfly wrote: »

I am rearing friesian replacement dairy calves. I know the protein:energy ratio is important in order to make efficient use of high protein diets. I also know that excess protein is wasted through excretion. I am hoping to make use of the protein:energy ratio for both pre and post weaned calves so that I can supplement their diet effectively.

What does the protein:energy ratio mean in practice in terms of diet targets and balances?

I could be wrong but I think that energy protein ratio is more for cows that are milking..so that they dont go thin and milk from their fat reserves.
L

ganmo

if you are increasing the % of one thing in your diet you are reducing the % of something else
food can be reduced to this, protein, ash(minerals) fibre and energy.
If you increase protein what do you reduce? probably fibre by increasing the oil % in the food(to a max of 10%, due to rumen interactions). but reducing the fibre too far can cause problems too.

My thinking of feeding is to over feed energy as the animal can store it but protein actually costs energy to excrete(remember that atkins diet fad) and energy is cheaper to feed too

dungfly

ganmo wrote: »

if you are increasing the % of one thing in your diet you are reducing the % of something else
food can be reduced to this, protein, ash(minerals) fibre and energy.
If you increase protein what do you reduce? probably fibre by increasing the oil % in the food(to a max of 10%, due to rumen interactions). but reducing the fibre too far can cause problems too.

My thinking of feeding is to over feed energy as the animal can store it but protein actually costs energy to excrete(remember that atkins diet fad) and energy is cheaper to feed too

Interesting logic regards % of diet. How do you feed energy to dairy calf without animal gaining too much fat?

gozunda

dungfly wrote: »

I aim to rear replacement calves from birth and calve at two years. I want to feed a high protein diet with an appropriate energy ratio.
Can calves digest soya (36% protein). Any suggestions?

Read some research on Soya and it indicates that soya is not particularly digestible for young calves.

Are you looking at big numbers? With regard to costs, growth rates and overall health I would be reluctant to remove grass feeding altogether. I would look at some of the alternatives available especially in calves under 2 or 3 weeks to be honest.

dungfly

I don't know how to increase my energy:protein ratio in a balanced manner.

I plan on rearing 70 calves yearly. To as high a health standard as possible without pushing them too much whereby I increase risk of illness. With regard to weaned calves I am interested in promoting lean gain. I am interested in the benefits of gain through energy:protein ratio. If weaned calves are on hay/straw & meal, How can I improve gain through added energy:protein ratio. eg If I add x grams of soya (36%protein) how much energy (and in what form) do I add. How does one calculate this?

ganmo

dungfly wrote: »

Interesting logic regards % of diet. How do you feed energy to dairy calf without animal gaining too much fat?

You ever know a dairy animal to get fat? :P

real answer...there's a skill that humans as a sspecies has lost, the ability for blood energy to control appetite.
Ruminants respond quicker to rumen strech(full rumen) than blood energy but they do respond to it.

take a look at the net energy system of classifying ingredients.
barley is used as the reference so some ingredient with a value of 1 has the same energy as barley(1.1 = 10% more, 0.9 10% less)

TheDairyMan

dungfly wrote: »

I aim to rear replacement calves from birth and calve at two years. I want to feed a high protein diet with an appropriate energy ratio.
Can calves digest soya (36% protein). Any suggestions?

soya is 48% protein. soy is 36% protein, two different products. A fully grown cow can only use an 18% crude protein diet, anything over that uses energy to turn it into urea which it urinates out, to much urea can also make an beast ill. i would believe a calf can only use a 18% crude protein diet but wouldn't be sure.

if you are having problems getting heifers too the proper weight at 2 years old meal is probably last thing the problem is. you should identify the times when they aren't preforming.EG before weaning, first season at grass, first winter, second season at grass,second winter

ganmo

dont forget that blood urea levels also affect fertility(high urea= bad fertility)

dungfly

ganmo wrote: »

dont forget that blood urea levels also affect fertility(high urea= bad fertility)

Does this mean that feeding young calves high protein diets can reduce fertility? Where are you getting this info?

"Examples of such nutritional strategies include insulinogenic diets (Gong et al., 2001) or diets with a high energy:protein ratio. Postcalving supplementation with gluconeogenic substrates, such as propylene glycol, has also shown reproductive benefits (Miyoshi et al., 2001). Lipid supplementation has generally, but not always, resulted in positive reproductive responses (Fahey et al., 2002a, McNamara et al., 2003a)."

http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2003/20031112/paper7.asp

ganmo

http://www.wcds.ca/proc/2005/Manuscripts/Butler2.pdf
I was referring to cows/bulling heifers
take a look at the link above(bottom of page 6) it shows that its the follicles that are affected not the uterus

propylene glycol would be an energy source so mopping up the extra nitrogen

edit: sorry I read more about propylene glycol (I jumped to a conclusion about it seeing the glycol) it seems to be a stabilizer

dungfly

My understanding is that the Energy:Protein ratio is important and must be balanced. I would like to assess a calfs diet (pre and post weaned) see if the energy:protein ratio its balanced and check how the efficiency of gain could be improved.

The net is full of crappy written papers. There is plenty volume of data but very little knowledge. Its as if some post-grad is just writing another paper just for the sake of a supervisor. This is just more stuff taking up space.

Its commonly accepted since the 1950s that energy:protein ratio is important why do we need to reassess a non-balance energy:protein situation and reach the conclusion that the energy:protein ratio should be balanced. This is called running around in circles, which is pointless and inconclusive. I don't mean to be critical of you or anyone else here on this forum. My point is that there is lots of data out there which is of little benefit from a practical sense.