Abroad,pregnant-dilemma

Karlrove

Not sure this is a big issue but myself and my partner are lost on making a decision. We are teaching in shanghai china. We came 1year agobecause the money was good and we really needed it. We dont really like the city and the school is okay but we arent loving our experience in it.We found out we are pregnant,we are delighted. However, we don't know weather to stay for our last year and have the baby here. It would be easier going home as we have family and friends and both have jobs in secondary schools waiting for us when we return. What is keeping us here. Well, including our living, travel and rent costs we can save 45,000euro. Yes, the saving potential is great. If we stay we can get a nanny etc and all is okay. My partner would take 3-4 months maternity. We are so unsure because while we want a good experience with our baby...45k or more is a lot of money to sane in 10 months to bring home and may improve our fortunes. We have days we want to stay for the money and other day we say lets go home. Really unsure. Any help appreciated.

Karl

R.D. aka MR.D

im currently in china at the moment and cant imagine what it must feel like but i imagine that in shanghai there are a good few international hospitals and doctors.

Have you thought about contacting the embassy and asking their advice? They might even be able to put you in touch with some one who has been in your place before. (im not sure how good the embassy is here but the people in the embassy in korea were fantastic and generally very helpful)

i don't really think any one here can make the decision for you but maybe some one who has been through the same experience might give you some guidance.

AnonMouse

I am not motivated by money in any way. Just thought I should write that down before I wrote my opinion on your post.

When you're on your death bed, will you be grateful for the €45,000 extra that you saved during that extra year in China, or will you remember your child's first year of life, with memories shared with family, friends etc? Money isn't the be all and end all.

If I was in your shoes, i'd definitely come home. It doesn't sound like you are that content where you are at the moment. I think it would be a terrible idea to stay in a situation like that just for money. There is more to life.

Best of luck with the baby and congratulations

Addle

I know a couple who have a family in China.
They can afford every possibility out there.
A nanny and housekeeper is considered essential, not a luxury.
Healthcare and childcare for ex-pats is of the highest quality.
I think if I was you, I'd stay and save.
I'd return home before your child starts primary school.
Buy your home here without a mortgage.
In the interim, fly your folks out a couple of times a year.
4 years will fly by. That's €180k saved!

Maura74

Congratulation on your new addition to the family - If you are in good health, I do not see the need why you should travel back to Ireland. Being pregnant is not an illness. Woman been having babies since time beginning. Things can go wrong in Ireland as any other country. The most important person at your side would be your OH and sometimes that does not happen regardless whether you are in Ireland or abroad.

ElleEm

Personally, I would say stay.
How old will your baby be when your last year is up?
Your wife will be able to take the first few months after the birth off, and you can afford a nanny too. The time will fly by when you are working and becoming first time parents. The experience will become about your baby and less about the city and job.
A year isn't that long, but €45,000 will always be loads of money!

Kidchameleon

Stay,

Your in Shanghai not Baghdad. Use the money saved to buy a house. Your baby will still be a baby when its time to come home. You have each other and that's all you really need.

Karlrove

Thanks for all your replies. It's a hard decision

deisemum

I would recommend staying and saving the money. A lot of people have babies abroad, myself included without having family around.

DoozerT6

In the broader scheme of things, I would stay. You will be able to save a shedload of money which will make your return home much easier. If you already have that amount saved after one year, with another year's saving you would make a helluva hole in a mortgage here, or have capital to set up a business, etc.

I know that your friends and family will miss out on the excitement of the pregnancy, and won't see your baba as a newborn, but realistically if you're only staying another year, the baby will only be a few months old when you return home.

LegacyUser

I would agree that you are better to stay in China. I would agree with the other posts here that you can afford help when your in China.
If you stay in China until you child is school age you will have a lot of money saved.

I know a couple with a child and like yourselves they are working abroad. He works long hours and she also works. They have help to mind the child. They told me that they are willing to do this for a few years. Within a few years they plan to move back to Ireland and buy a house without a mortgage.

jimmycrackcorm

Stay for definite. Your baby will have years ahead to have a life back home, but you'd be giving up 45k that could be better used to give your child a good life for what if you came home now? Your baby won't have any memory of the first ten months so what's the point in coming home early...

dollybird2

Going against popular opinion here but...
I would come home. I cannot imagine having my child without being close to family. Pregnancy can be difficult and it is unpredictable, as is delivery. Having my parents & family with me after delivery was priceless.
I would not have left my child to a nanny either, so I needed family close by.
I understand the points made re: child won't remember before 10 months old - but this where the bonding process takes place, and the point re: giving the child a better life with the money saved - but again you can give a child everything materially but it doesn't guarantee happiness.
Good luck with your decision, there are pros & cons for both scenarios

finbarrk

Stay in China for the next few years. Save the money. The baby won't have a clue anyway. Women have been having babies in strange countries for years. The notion about having your family around you for the baby is nonscence.

LegacyUser

I would move home. Money isn't everything and you do sound pretty miserable there anyway. You can always go back over, but you're baby is only a baby once.

finbarrk wrote: »

The notion about having your family around you for the baby is nonscence.

This is "nonscence".

clairefontaine

Have you considered the implications of Chinese citizenship and what that might mean for your child?

For example, all US male citizens have to register with the selective service. Also, European banks are obliged to inform the IRS of any financial holdings that they have abroad. [This is recent].

I would suggest you research what the Chinese demand before you weigh up your options.... not that the Chinese could really enforce it but still... good to know.

Chocolate fiend

I doubt the baby would be a chinese citizen, my son was born in Australia but, because my husband and I are both Irish citizens he is as well. Babies born in Ireland aren't automatically Irish citizens either are they?

OP, stay where you are. The baby won't know any different and for every extended family that is a great help when you have a family there are two more who are no better than a chocolate teapot.

Faith

Chocolate fiend wrote: »

I doubt the baby would be a chinese citizen, my son was born in Australia but, because my husband and I are both Irish citizens he is as well. Babies born in Ireland aren't automatically Irish citizens either are they?

OP, stay where you are. The baby won't know any different and for every extended family that is a great help when you have a family there are two more who are no better than a chocolate teapot.

It might have changed in very recent years, but you are typically a citizen of the country you're born in. My OH was born in Germany and holds a German passport and German citizenship, even though he's lived in Ireland since he was about 2. I know several people with American passports due to being born there, and my nephew has just been born in Australia and I'm pretty sure he'll have an Australian passport despite non-Australian parents.

So it's actually a good point to consider those implications.

stargazer 68

Faith wrote: »

It might have changed in very recent years, but you are typically a citizen of the country you're born in.
So it's actually a good point to consider those implications.

It depends on the country so would be a good idea to check.

clairefontaine

Chocolate fiend wrote: »

I doubt the baby would be a chinese citizen, my son was born in Australia but, because my husband and I are both Irish citizens he is as well. Babies born in Ireland aren't automatically Irish citizens either are they?

OP, stay where you are. The baby won't know any different and for every extended family that is a great help when you have a family there are two more who are no better than a chocolate teapot.

Your child was not an automatic Irish citizen either. Birth gives you autotmatic citizenship in many countries, like the US.

Your child was not automatically an Irish citizen either, being abroad, you had to go through application processes for it.

It is a good idea to double check these things.

iusedtoknow

China is jus sanguines, so he won't take chinese citizenship.

Ireland is an odd mixture jus sanguines (by blood) and jus soli (by land (lit: by soil)) citizenship.

If you are born abroad to Irish parents, you are automatically an irish citizen, however proof needs to be provided to embassy at registration of your citizenship and birth certs. The child is not naturalized, but registered as a foreign birth. It used to be the case that any child born on the island of Ireland was allowed citizenship, regardless of parents nationality - that changed in the early 2000's.

Citizen advice has a great page on it

clairefontaine

iusedtoknow wrote: »

China is jus sanguines, so he won't take chinese citizenship.

Ireland is an odd mixture jus sanguines (by blood) and jus soli (by land (lit: by soil)) citizenship.

If you are born abroad to Irish parents, you are automatically an irish citizen, however proof needs to be provided to embassy at registration of your citizenship and birth certs. The child is not naturalized, but registered as a foreign birth. It used to be the case that any child born on the island of Ireland was allowed citizenship, regardless of parents nationality - that changed in the early 2000's.

Citizen advice has a great page on it

That is somewhat incorrect. You are not automatically an Irish citizen, you are entitled to it through application. I know lots of people, myself included who did not automatically become Irish citizens due to being born abroad to Irish parents. Citizens advice is actually wrong about that. I can give you countless examples of people I know in NYC who are NOT Irish citizens despite their parents being Irish immigrants.

iusedtoknow

clairefontaine wrote: »

That is somewhat incorrect. You are not automatically an Irish citizen, you are entitled to it through application. I know lots of people, myself included who did not automatically become Irish citizens due to being born abroad to Irish parents. Citizens advice is actually wrong about that. I can give you countless examples of people I know in NYC who are NOT Irish citizens despite their parents being Irish immigrants.

Laws change over time, however I know from experience that a child born to an irish parent abroad was Irish and not "naturalized" by any means. My brother (irish) and his wife (canadian) sent the passport application to the embassy in Ottawa, along with my brothers birth cert and passport. An irish passport was winging it's way to canada within 6 weeks, no further actions needed.

From the Irish Department of Justice INIS website

Citizenship through descent

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, you are an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth (unless one of the special conditions relating to birth outside Ireland applies; these are described below). If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was not alive at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen. You derive citizenship through an Irish parent whether or not your parents were married to each other at the time of your birth.

clairefontaine

iusedtoknow wrote: »

Laws change over time, however I know from experience that a child born to an irish parent abroad was Irish and not "naturalized" by any means. My brother (irish) and his wife (canadian) sent the passport application to the embassy in Ottawa, along with my brothers birth cert and passport. An irish passport was winging it's way to canada within 6 weeks, no further actions needed.

From the Irish Department of Justice INIS website

Yes I realise that and I know the process, but it's misleading for them to say it's automatic. It is not - you must go through a registration and paper work process which then meets approval. There are countless children of Irish emmigrants who do not hold Irish citizenship because they or their parents did not go through such a process. It's elective.

By contrast, when you are an immigrant in the US, regardless of your own citizenship status, and your child is born in the US, there is no process as such to go through, the child just has it automatically. The child's birth certificate is enough to certify it. Not only that, you can't get rid of it unless you go through a whole ex patriot process, which is why I was concerned about China's. In the US and other countries, it's not elective as such.

Assuming OP and partner are Irish, and assuming at least one of them were born in Ireland, their child would have to go through such a process via the embassy and DFA, which is fine. It's the automatic Chinese citizenship I'd be concerned about, which is a non issue as you have pointed out.

ShaShaBear

Honestly OP, I'd move.

I'm 4 months pregnant now and I do not know what I would do without the support of my mother and mother-in-law with trivial little things. Nausea, sickness, constipation, blood when wiping, dizziness, fainting, pre-eclampsia, hyperemesis, round ligament pain, scans, Braxton Hicks and labour itself can all be terrifying, new and confusing - all at once.
Your partner might find she is too ill to work, and may be forced to leave. Your partner could end up spending a lot of time in hospital and incur bills that would outweigh the potential savings. She could suffer depression, become lonely or desperately crave the presence of female family members who know what she is going through.
If she's just found out, chances are she feels fine now - but with the potential for so much worse to come, even with a normal, low-risk pregnancy, I myself would much prefer to be closer to home.

LegacyUser

Congratulations. My two cents are that while the money might seem very alluring, I would very carefully consider your proposal of only taking 3 months maternity leave. That would leave an extremely young baby in the care of a nanny previously unknown to you, and whose views and culture on child rearing might be entirely different to yours. While growing up abroad could be a tremendous cultural experience for your child, I think leaving a tiny baby at such a young age would be very tough for you as first time parents. Would the pressure of your financial plans mean you could not possibly change your mind on the uber short maternity leave if you felt otherwise when the time comes?

I think even if you posted saying you both adored your jobs and loved the city, this would still be a tough decision. Your lack of passion for the life you are leading suggests to me that money would need to be very significant motivation for you both to counteract this. Saving e45,000 in a year between two educated fulltime working adults isnt really all that enormous or lifechanging a sum, in my view.

Have you considered whether if you came home, you could move back when your child is a little older and start again?

Good luck with your choice.

On the Irish citizenship issue, if either of you is an Irish citizen born in Ireland, then your child is automatically an Irish citizen regardless of place of birth. Needing to register or request citizenship only aplies if the Irish citizen parent got their citizenship in some other way than birth on the island of Ireland.