Shotgun or Air Rifle

dar 1993

Hi all im hoping to start hunting shortly after talking to a few people it seems impossible to get into a gun club locally so wont have a huge amount of land to hunt also cant have a dog due to where im living so was thinking that an air rifle would be a better choice was just woundering what would be a better choice
Cheers Darragh

One shot on kill

Welcome to the asylum lad.

Rifle or shot gun depend on what you intend to shoot.

Shot gun you shot duck snipe woodcock pheasant pigeon crows etc.

Rifle you can shoot rabbits foxes rats. A lot more all year shooting with a rifle.

Not with an air rifle mind but getting 22lr would be the exact same process and rules as getting the air rifle.

Sounds like a lot more shooting with the shotgun but you can rule a few of them out if you don't have a hunting dog.

dar 1993

Thank for the response ye not having the dog rules out alot of shooting with the shotgun but would be a bit nervous to start shooting with a .22 but im looking at a weirauch hw100 in a .22 model after watching a few videos on you tube and looks very capable for rabbits
Cheers Darragh

jimf

dar 1993 wrote: »

Hi all im hoping to start hunting shortly after talking to a few people it seems impossible to get into a gun club locally so wont have a huge amount of land to hunt also cant have a dog due to where im living so was thinking that an air rifle would be a better choice was just woundering what would be a better choice
Cheers Darragh

surely if you have a local gun club they will not refuse you membership this is always a sore point with me

some local lad wants to get going in the shooting game and every obstacle is put in his way I know in our gun club any local within the community is allowed membership

dar 1993

The real problem is im originally from out the country but moved two the town a few years ago so don't really know anyone who shoots locally and the club in my original parish wont take members from outside its area

One shot on kill

jimf wrote: »

surely if you have a local gun club they will not refuse you membership this is always a sore point with me

some local lad wants to get going in the shooting game and every obstacle is put in his way I know in our gun club any local within the community is allowed membership

No offence or anything but that's what lads say when there in a club already and your opinion is correct. But it's a known fact that a lot of gun clubs are very hard to get into. Same happened with me last year. So I didn't bother.

jimf

no offence taken I know too well how this works
ive been a comm member of our club for years and any local lad once living in the gc area is allowed entry to our club

ok we have from time to time lads wanting to join our club when their also members elsewhere they don't get the same open arm welcome

maybe a trip to the local garda and explain your predicament they maybe able to put you in touch with 1 of the club officers

as me ould fella used to say theres a handle on every door but how do you get the fcukin thing to open

valerossi

You can sucessfully hunt anything with a shotgun.

1shot16

Except deer!

Get Shotgun and .22lr for the same price as a HW100!!!

sniperviper

dar 1993 wrote: »

Thank for the response ye not having the dog rules out alot of shooting with the shotgun but would be a bit nervous to start shooting with a .22 but im looking at a weirauch hw100 in a .22 model after watching a few videos on you tube and looks very capable for rabbits
Cheers Darragh

Hi I have both a shotgun and air rifle daystate huntsman classic .22 pcp, when buying an air rifle make sure you know what foot pounds it is mine is a 30 foot pound gun and is ideal for shooting rabbits, air rifles come in different foot pounds 12 foot pounds, 30,40, etc so make sure you know what you want before you buy.
feel free to pm me if you need any further info!!

extremetaz

HW100 in .22 is a crackin' rifle - not cheap, as alluded to above, but excellent for anything up to rabbit.
As mentioned above, whilst the 12ft.lb models will take rabbits, the FAC models will reach out that little bit farther.

As to the whole "shotgun or air rifle" thing, there isn't really a whole lot of common ground between them. Frankly, I'd say you're ultimately you're going to end up with both, and in all likelyhood a rimfire of some flavour as well. So don't worry too much about it.

Vegeta

If I had to pick between a .22lr, an air rifle and a shotgun but had no interest in hunting game then I'd pick a 30ft/lb air rifle with decent shot capacity.

Will kill a rabbit at 70 yards, with care can be shot into tress and around farm buildings and is extremely quiet. Yes a shotgun is more powerful and better for flying/perched quarry and a .22lr is more powerful and better for ground quarry but the air rifle is a great all rounder.

Padd2

i shoot both .. both very handy firearms .. a good craic is hunting rabbits with the springer if i had my time again od have gone 17hmr

Bushwack

Some weihrauch hw 100s have bad barrels and accuracy problems at fac power,better off with airarms,theoben,or the new impact airguns.Sorry to be negative but its a knowen fact.You will get more all round shooting with an airrifle and wont scare half the parish while your hunting so that means more shots at rabbits or vermin.Shotgun is grand if its game shooting your after.

extremetaz

Bushwack wrote: »

Some weihrauch hw 100s have bad barrels and accuracy problems at fac power,better off with airarms,theoben,or the new impact airguns.Sorry to be negative but its a knowen fact.

Know fact my arse.

The issues with accuracy at FAC levels are on account of driving the pellet too fast - the diabolo shape simply isn't stable when driven at high speeds and that performance is replicated with any diabolo fed high powered air rifle. It's nothing at all to do with the brand.

Heavier ammo sorts the problem.

You'll do excellently with any of the above mentioned brands and whilst I shoot weihrauch myself, I'd never attempt to dissuade anyone from the parrallels.

Bushwack

extremetaz wrote: »

Know fact my arse.

The issues with accuracy at FAC levels are on account of driving the pellet too fast - the diabolo shape simply isn't stable when driven at high speeds and that performance is replicated with any diabolo fed high powered air rifle. It's nothing at all to do with the brand.

Heavier ammo sorts the problem.

You'll do excellently with any of the above mentioned brands and whilst I shoot weihrauch myself, I'd never attempt to dissuade anyone from the parrallels.

No need to be like that,suppose the accuracy thing was only a rumor,thats why it was all over the internet and the weihrauch owners club even documented the problems of the .22 at 30fpe.I even know of a dealer that sent some of these rifles back to weihrauch to have these problems addressed and it turned out that the barrels were removed and ether polished out or replaced but that was 2 years ago so maybe weihrauch have there act together now.

Diabolo shaped pellets are the most accurate pellet you can use in your airrifle and bisley magnums at 21grains can be shot at powers of 35 or even 40fpe in the right barrels.I know that I can shoot 16gr AAfield at 33fpe from a walter barrel and get tumb nail size groups at 50 yards. I know if I buy a 30fpe rifle I would not expect to have to turn the power down to get a pellet to group with the exception of .177 and since weihrauch ran there fac pneumatic hw 100 at that power there was no reason why a diabolo shaped pellet could not peform in the said rifle especially with the range of different pellets,weights,head sizes that are available now days.You know fella not all airrifle barrels like heavy pellets so your diagnoses for the heavy pellet to sort all the problems out is flawed,alot can depend on the rifling,choke tightness,barrel port finishing,probe seals excreta.

Of course it was foolish of me to dismiss any make of rifle but it can only help any one do a little more research before the spend there hard earned cash,i wish some gave me advice before I got in to airgunning 17 years ago and I could have saved a fortune.

extremetaz

Bushwack wrote: »

...21grains can be shot at powers of 35 or even 40fpe... ...16gr AAfield at 33fpe...

As I said, the diabolo isn't stable at high velocity - weight solves the problem by taking the extra energy in the mass rather than the velocity aspects of the equation.

Bushwack wrote: »

I know if I buy a 30fpe rifle I would not expect to have to turn the power down to get a pellet to group with the exception of .177

You don't need to, you just need to use JSB Exact Heavies. They give me 1/2in at 50m in my .177FAC assuming no wind.

On the other hand, throwing in superlights will lead to the pellet going supersonic and will destroy any semblence of accuracy.

Bushwack wrote: »

...there was no reason why a diabolo shaped pellet could not peform in the said rifle especially with the range of different pellets,weights,head sizes that are available now days.

Bushwack wrote: »

You know fella not all airrifle barrels like heavy pellets so your diagnoses for the heavy pellet to sort all the problems out is flawed,alot can depend on the rifling,choke tightness,barrel port finishing,probe seals excreta.

Whilst you are correct of course, none of the above will affect the pellet as much as simply pushing it too fast. Select a weight range that delivers appropriate muzzle velocity first - then you can worry about all of the other aspects.

Zxthinger

Start phoning around and check out what's available second hand in air rifles. This is not the Uk and they aren't too popular!!

A cheap PCP is the way to go!!
Airarms 410 or a 200 with 10 shot adopter.

extremetaz

Zxthinger wrote: »

Start phoning around and check out what's available second hand in air rifles. This is not the Uk and they aren't too popular!!

A cheap PCP is the way to go!!
Airarms 410 or a 200 with 10 shot adopter.

Weihrauch are stocked new and used by Lakelands just outside Mullingar.

..not that I'm knocking the AA's, just the HW's aren't nearly as rare here as you seem to think. Having said that, they likely will run €200-300 more expensive than the AA's alright.

Bushwack

extremetaz wrote: »

As I said, the diabolo isn't stable at high velocity - weight solves the problem by taking the extra energy in the mass rather than the velocity aspects of the equation.




You don't need to, you just need to use JSB Exact Heavies. They give me 1/2in at 50m in my .177FAC assuming no wind.

On the other hand, throwing in superlights will lead to the pellet going supersonic and will destroy any semblence of accuracy.





Whilst you are correct of course, none of the above will affect the pellet as much as simply pushing it too fast. Select a weight range that delivers appropriate muzzle velocity first - then you can worry about all of the other aspects.

Jsb heavy wont shoot well in every 177 barrel after that heavy 177 ammo is limited.

Most airrifles come as 25-40fpe range and mostly 30fpe so 16-21gr pellet would be better for flat trajectory in .22 and heaver pellets in .25 so diabolo should be spot on bar your in huge power in 303cal or something like that.

extremetaz

Bushwack wrote: »

Jsb heavy wont shoot well in every 177 barrel after that heavy 177 ammo is limited.

Not really - H&N, Daystate, RWS, Diana, Crossman... all do pellets in that weight range and of good quality.

Bushwack wrote: »

...so 16-21gr pellet would be better for flat trajectory in .22 and heaver pellets in .25

That's precisely the thinking that causes the problems - you can only flatten the trajectory so far before the velocity becomes an issue.

And an awful lot of the second hand rifles that are available in Ireland are non-FAC units brought in from the UK so it would be ill advised to assume that any air rifle purchased here was actually above 12ft.lb without a chronograph test. My FAC for example (sourced secondhand here) turned out to be dialled down, presumably for for ease of export from the UK and had to be reconfigured before I bought it.

Bushwack

Most of those pellets are a little on the light side for much fac power,most lads will do as you did and reset the power up when they get a rifle that's 12fpe so in turn that limits there pellet choices in 177,don't think its the best cal for fac power any how and over penetrates so less stopping power and is hard on air,better off with .20 or. 22 and if you want you could use 14 grain pellets that are close enough to the weight of the heavier 177 pellets you listed plus you have the option of going with even heavier pellets and have better range,choice of pellets,stopping power and shots per charge,horses for courses but that would be my thinking any how.

extremetaz

Bushwack wrote: »

Most of those pellets are a little on the light side for much fac power,most lads will do as you did and reset the power up when they get a rifle that's 12fpe so in turn that limits there pellet choices in 177,don't think its the best cal for fac power any how and over penetrates so less stopping power and is hard on air,better off with .20 or. 22 and if you want you could use 14 grain pellets that are close enough to the weight of the heavier 177 pellets you listed plus you have the option of going with even heavier pellets and have better range,choice of pellets,stopping power and shots per charge,horses for courses but that would be my thinking any how.

Those are pellet brands, they all have a good variety of weights available. I use the Exact Heavy (10.4gr) at ~22J in the FAC HW100.

You're correct about overpenetration but that's just a factor of the .177 which makes shot placement that bit more important. I'll still drop rabbits readily out to 40m with it but as you say, the energy transfer is marginal so if you're even slightly off your mark you may need a follow up.

I am intent on switching out for a .22 barrelled action for that reason - and I'd be intent on running that to roughly the same ~830fps at the muzzle and would expect very similar performance but with that bit more persuasion at impact.

Having said that - there are absolutely no issues with pellet stability out to 50m with the combination above and 50m will produce 1/2in group happily, with that spead starting from about 35m and 1/4in up to that. At 22m it's pellet on pellet.

So for target applications it's perfect, but as you say, the knock down potential simply isn't there with the narrower projectile.

As to being hard on air - never fussed myself over that sort of nonsense really, it's not like it's a big deal to refill so it wouldn't be the sort of factor that I'd consider worth worrying about. If you're on targets then you're close enough to an air source, if you're in the field and you can't finish a bloody good day in under 30 shots (and it gives ~50), then you shouldn't be out there in the first place.

What we're discussing though has little to do with the initial point though - and that is that any of the PCP FAC offerings out there will perform broadly equally given appropriate ammunition and the same shooter - the things that make up any price difference are more to do with trigger quality, magazine ergonomics, air capacity, weight, reliability, availablity of parts and the materials and ergonomics of the stock.

...and given that all the top models are similarly reliable and easy to source parts for, that really means that everything else is down to personal preference.

Bushwack

Those are pellet brands, they all have a good variety of weights available. I use the Exact Heavy (10.4gr) at ~22J in the FAC HW100.

You're correct about overpenetration but that's just a factor of the .177 which makes shot placement that bit more important. I'll still drop rabbits readily out to 40m with it but as you say, the energy transfer is marginal so if you're even slightly off your mark you may need a follow up.

I am intent on switching out for a .22 barrelled action for that reason - and I'd be intent on running that to roughly the same ~830fps at the muzzle and would expect very similar performance but with that bit more persuasion at impact.

Having said that - there are absolutely no issues with pellet stability out to 50m with the combination above and 50m will produce 1/2in group happily, with that spead starting from about 35m and 1/4in up to that. At 22m it's pellet on pellet.

So for target applications it's perfect, but as you say, the knock down potential simply isn't there with the narrower projectile.

As to being hard on air - never fussed myself over that sort of nonsense really, it's not like it's a big deal to refill so it wouldn't be the sort of factor that I'd consider worth worrying about. If you're on targets then you're close enough to an air source, if you're in the field and you can't finish a bloody good day in under 30 shots (and it gives ~50), then you shouldn't be out there in the first place.

Every body different on shot count,i like good amount of shots for hunting and plinking,nothing worse than looking at a gauge to see how much air you have left when miles from any where.



...and given that all the top models are similarly reliable and easy to source parts for, that
really means that everything else is down to personal preference.


Don't really agree with you there,i have shot and owned a good few makes of pneumatic airrifles and not all are reliable, there are some if I got for nothing and I would not have them round the place again.

FISMA

valerossi wrote: »

You can sucessfully hunt anything with a shotgun.

1shot16 wrote: »

Except deer!

Agreed, but only because it is illegal. A 300gr sabot is more than capable of 2" groups at 100ya. Clearly ethical. Clearly able. Clearly illegal in Eire.

dar 1993 wrote: »

...just woundering what would be a better choice

For me, it is an easy decision - shotgun. If I were limited to one gun, it would be a 12gauge. It is, generally speaking, the most versatile firearm.

There may be reasons to go with an air-rifle. I love my Diana RWS. It is nice to go out for small game or just target shoot and not have to worry about ear protection. However, that is why I have the 22lr with subs.

extremetaz

Bushwack wrote: »

i have shot and owned a good few makes of pneumatic airrifles and not all are reliable, there are some if I got for nothing and I would not have them round the place again.

Undoubtedly, but somehow I doubt any of those were among the top model offerings.

Weihrauch, Air arms, Daystate, Walther... all brands that are more about personal preference than quality at this stage (by which I mean that the quality is inherent). All excellent kit all things being equal. Yes you'll get the very occassional lemon that people will never shut up about, but that's really all it is.

Gamo, BSA, Crossman etc... will always be a bit more flakey but I wouldn't count any of their offerings as a top model example and they command prices which reflect that.

Bushwack

extremetaz wrote: »

Undoubtedly, but somehow I doubt any of those were among the top model offerings.

Weihrauch, Air arms, Daystate, Walther... all brands that are more about personal preference than quality at this stage (by which I mean that the quality is inherent). All excellent kit all things being equal. Yes you'll get the very occassional lemon that people will never shut up about, but that's really all it is.

Gamo, BSA, Crossman etc... will always be a bit more flakey but I wouldn't count any of their offerings as a top model example and they command prices which reflect that.

Wait til I tell ya,i have owned airarms s410,fx,theoben,daystate,weihrauch,if I was to ask any body what rifle they would grab out of that lot most would would run away with the daystate hands down but,This is my experience with the airranger,it was loud,inaccurate,heavy with a shroud that had no real use but added to the cosmetics of the rifle and I must say what an attractive looking rifle It was but that was it.The barrel mounting was bad with only 4 little grub screws holding the barrel in a breech block that was way over sized for the barrel so that meant that the barrel could move around in the breech as it floated on those 4 little screws when it came under pressure from the air blast,hence the reason that daystate came out with the idea of an ugly barrel band that fixed to the bottle and that only added to the problem as when the pressure would drop in the bottle it would contract thus moving the poi downwards as the bottle pulled down the barrel via the band so a bad job indeed,only a year ago daystate coped on to this problem and upgraded all there breech blocks to a harder material and made there barrel tolerances tighter,even the breech block its self would flex under pressure at fac power.Do you notice that daystate have come out with the wolverine and I would think it is one hell of an airrifle as the block is constructed as one piece with a thicker barrel,plus the wolverine b type has taken the place of the airranger and will take the place of most daystate chassis in one way or another.

The fx fell to bits on me from the little wear and tear it got and I put every pellet known to man through it and still could not get a proper tight group from it but maybe I got a lemon as sometimes happens.

Out of all the only two rifles I would have in my hands are the theoben rapid or the little airarms s410.The theoben now as impact airguns is so simple to work on with only a few o rings in it to give trouble so when one does go you could strip it with your eyes closed in a few minuates,the regulator is easy to alter the pressure and service and there are parts all over the web and ebay plus there are two owners clubs devoted to these rifles if you should have bother,o and parts are very cheep.

Brocock are cheep but supposed to be very good and easy to service.



So my advice to anybody thinking getting an airrifle is to do lots of research as some are a lot better than others.

sniperviper

Bushwack wrote: »

Wait til I tell ya,i have owned airarms s410,fx,theoben,daystate,weihrauch,if I was to ask any body what rifle they would grab out of that lot most would would run away with the daystate hands down but,This is my experience with the airranger,it was loud,inaccurate,heavy with a shroud that had no real use but added to the cosmetics of the rifle and I must say what an attractive looking rifle It was but that was it.The barrel mounting was bad with only 4 little grub screws holding the barrel in a breech block that was way over sized for the barrel so that meant that the barrel could move around in the breech as it floated on those 4 little screws when it came under pressure from the air blast,hence the reason that daystate came out with the idea of an ugly barrel band that fixed to the bottle and that only added to the problem as when the pressure would drop in the bottle it would contract thus moving the poi downwards as the bottle pulled down the barrel via the band so a bad job indeed,only a year ago daystate coped on to this problem and upgraded all there breech blocks to a harder material and made there barrel tolerances tighter,even the breech block its self would flex under pressure at fac power.Do you notice that daystate have come out with the wolverine and I would think it is one hell of an airrifle as the block is constructed as one piece with a thicker barrel,plus the wolverine b type has taken the place of the airranger and will take the place of most daystate chassis in one way or another.

The fx fell to bits on me from the little wear and tear it got and I put every pellet known to man through it and still could not get a proper tight group from it but maybe I got a lemon as sometimes happens.

Out of all the only two rifles I would have in my hands are the theoben rapid or the little airarms s410.The theoben now as impact airguns is so simple to work on with only a few o rings in it to give trouble so when one does go you could strip it with your eyes closed in a few minuates,the regulator is easy to alter the pressure and service and there are parts all over the web and ebay plus there are two owners clubs devoted to these rifles if you should have bother,o and parts are very cheep.

Brocock are cheep but supposed to be very good and easy to service.



So my advice to anybody thinking getting an airrifle is to do lots of research as some are a lot better than others.

Is your theoben rapid a 30 fp? Ive got a huntsman classic 30 fp i get about 25 useable shots its unregulated, Ive heard lots of good things about the rapid just wondering what fp yours is what number of shots you get? what pressure is it filled to?
Thanks

Bushwack

Yes the rapid is around 30fpe depending on what pellet weight you use,iam getting 50-60 good shots from a 400cc bottle filled to 200bar with theoben fast flow set up but if I fit a reg I could add a lot more shots,It all so has 15.8 dia barrel at 23 inch long with 4 mill port and 6 mill lead so that helps for better shot count and is deadly accurate with 15.9 grain jsb or daystate pellets.

I also have an mfr and just got a regulator build with shorter reg core for more pre chamber space and better consistency,it will give 60 shots at 26fpe with a small 280cc bottle with 16gr airarms field at 220 bar fill so happy days.