Rousey vs Tate - Judo in MMA

average hero

After being thoroughly entertained by the Rousey vs Tate match at UFC 168, I came across this article detailing some of the throws/techniques used in the fight.

http://artofgrappling.com/2013/12/29/ufc-168-rousey-tate-judo-throw-highlights-gifs/

Having watched the fight, read the article and your own experience, where do you think Judo ranks in the martial arts used in MMA?

Regards

riffmongous

Imo, useful to a point, and that point is when you come up against high quality oppostion. Rousey isn't the first olympian judo practitioner by any means, I'd say look at the careers of other top mma/judo practioners like Pawel Nastula, Makoto Takimoto, Hidehiko Zoshida, Satoshi Iishi, Naoya Ogawa, Dong Sik Yoon, Kazuhiro Nakamura and of course Karo to get a fairer view of how people from a judo background have faired.

I can't wait to see how Rousey does against a top level wrestler like McCann, I think Tate set up a lot of the throws herself by trying to force her own takedowns, I dont think McCann will make the same mistakes

Mellor

riffmongous wrote: »

I'd say look at the careers of other top mma/judo practioners like Pawel Nastula, Makoto Takimoto, Hidehiko Zoshida, Satoshi Iishi, Naoya Ogawa, Dong Sik Yoon, Kazuhiro Nakamura and of course Karo to get a fairer view of how people from a judo background have faired.

Hector Lombard, Kim Dong-Hyun, Yushin Okami and Shinya Aoki would all be more well known judoka.

riffmongous

Mellor wrote: »

Hector Lombard, Kim Dong-Hyun, Yushin Okami and Shinya Aoki would all be more well known judoka.

Well known, but with the exception of Lombard who I forgot about they werent top level judo guys, most of the guys I listed were Olmypic medallists, which even Lombard didnt achieve. Akiyama would be another well known one I guess.

Imo, I'd say that judo would certainly be a useful background, but with the exception of Rousey elite level judo doesnt mean elite mma. Caveat, elite wrestling doesnt always mean elite mma either, but at UFC level a wrestling background seems more effective than judo.

There's also the question of if judo without a gi is really even judo anymore and not just wrestling, imo, only Karo really had a style that was identifiably judo and distinct from wrestlers..of the guys you mention would you really see anything about Okami or Kim that is different from a wrestler at the same level as them? (I havent seen enough Lombard to comment on him)

Karo's book on judo is for mma is a pretty good read for anyone interested

Mellor

riffmongous wrote: »

Well known, but with the exception of Lombard who I forgot about they werent top level judo guys, most of the guys I listed were Olmypic medallists, which even Lombard didnt achieve. Akiyama would be another well known one I guess.

Imo, I'd say that judo would certainly be a useful background, but with the exception of Rousey elite level judo doesnt mean elite mma. Caveat, elite wrestling doesnt always mean elite mma either, but at UFC level a wrestling background seems more effective than judo.

There's also the question of if judo without a gi is really even judo anymore and not just wrestling, imo, only Karo really had a style that was identifiably judo and distinct from wrestlers..of the guys you mention would you really see anything about Okami or Kim that is different from a wrestler at the same level as them? (I havent seen enough Lombard to comment on him)

Karo's book on judo is for mma is a pretty good read for anyone interested

That's all true, but the same happens in other arts. Some of BJJ top players have had less than impressive MMA careers. Roger Gracie, BJJ stud - cut from the UFC. Plenty of elite strikers haven't transitioned over either. Have many wrestling gold medal winners had MMA success?

Basically I think the best thing to do is get a strong base in a grappling art, then transfer to MMA. Most of the top MMA wrestlers were the ones who were collegiate champs but went directly into MMA from there. Some of course went as far as the olympics, but at from point an MMA crossover is an exception rather than a rule.

But i agree with what you are saying about Judo also, Rousey and Kayo wee the only two I can think of where you could clearly seeing individual judo attacks like Uchi mata setting up kouchi gari (repeatedly ) and not just "generic judo-ish trip/throw"

riffmongous

Just for fun, the main Olympic medal winning wrestlers that I can think of would be Coleman, Hendo, Lindland.

If you expand that to guys who were into a position to make it onto the olympic team or didnt medal you'd have Couture, Comier, Severn, Askren, Yoel Romero, Eldar Kurtanidze (0-1 in an awful Pride fight) and a few japanese who's names escape me, but they had poor mma careers

arybvtcw0eolkf

riffmongous wrote: »

There's also the question of if judo without a gi is really even judo anymore and not just wrestling, imo, only Karo really had a style that was identifiably judo and distinct from wrestlers.

Its still Judo without the gi (well if you believe BJJ without the gi is still BJJ)..

Something which is really hard to get across to people with no judo experience is the set up to throws ~ body positioning, grip fighting (I'd a hard time finding my grips out of the gi), breaking balance, footwork and combinations (although I think Rousey is getting the combo message across).

I'm often asked to show a throw to someone (mma, bjj players) and sure its easy to show a throw, hip throws, shoulder throws, foot techniques etc ~ its as easy to walk into any MMA club and teach a judo throw as it is to walk into any boxing club and teach a newbie a hey maker/sucker punch.

Try to get that person to work the throw (or suckerpunch) into a contest and they'll fail miserably.

Sure you'll see them work sometimes, but mostly they won't.

So the set up to the throw is 90% of the technique, and thats where a non judoka falls short.. Its almost painful for me to watch some fights where I can see a clear oppertunity to throw from the clinch ~ its screaming at me, but the non Judoka doesn't see it and the chance is gone.

Also people expect the judoka to launch massive hip & shoulder throws because they look spectacular and are clearly indentifiable as Judo techniques but I tell newbies to Judo ~ why throw someone into the air to throw them on the ground, 'throw your opponent to the ground!.

Until very recently single/double leg grabs were all legitimate judo techniques, as was the supplex as was the firemans carry but to most who see a judo do these that person thinks the judo is crossing over into wrestling.

Too long ~ short version, there is a lot more to judo than tossing someone into the air.

riffmongous

Harmoni Moldy Shredder wrote: »

..

I going to start sounding like a shill but I think Karo Parisyan's book should be read by anyone moving to 'no-gi judo' He explains how to easily modify the gi grips to conventional wrestling grips to perform throws, and he also does a lot of work on following up a blocked throw/combos. I'd like to hear what someone of your experience thinks of it

Until very recently single/double leg grabs were all legitimate judo techniques, as was the supplex as was the firemans carry but to most who see a judo do these that person thinks the judo is crossing over into wrestling.

Too long ~ short version, there is a lot more to judo than tossing someone into the air.

Do you mean the suplex (ura nage?) is now also a constrained technique? My original reason for getting into judo years ago was that I wanted to wrestle and it wasnt possible to go to a wrestling club, I guess I wont be taking it back up again now that they've fudged all my favourite techniques (but I still love watching it)

arybvtcw0eolkf

riffmongous wrote: »

I going to start sounding like a shill but I think Karo Parisyan's book should be read by anyone moving to 'no-gi judo' He explains how to easily modify the gi grips to conventional wrestling grips to perform throws, and he also does a lot of work on following up a blocked throw/combos. I'd like to hear what someone of your experience thinks of it

Do you mean the suplex (ura nage?) is now also a constrained technique? My original reason for getting into judo years ago was that I wanted to wrestle and it wasnt possible to go to a wrestling club, I guess I wont be taking it back up again now that they've fudged all my favourite techniques (but I still love watching it)

I have Karo's video's, excellent stuff..

Ura nage, yes. Its still legal but there are rules to gripping on it now. I'm open to correction but so far as I can remember (I'll be competing next month and March so I'll be brushing up soon) you can not 'bear hug' (ie join hands) on the grip and you can't grab below the belt.

Gumbi

Harmoni Moldy Shredder wrote: »

Its still Judo without the gi (well if you believe BJJ without the gi is still BJJ)..

Something which is really hard to get across to people with no judo experience is the set up to throws ~ body positioning, grip fighting (I'd a hard time finding my grips out of the gi), breaking balance, footwork and combinations (although I think Rousey is getting the combo message across).

I'm often asked to show a throw to someone (mma, bjj players) and sure its easy to show a throw, hip throws, shoulder throws, foot techniques etc ~ its as easy to walk into any MMA club and teach a judo throw as it is to walk into any boxing club and teach a newbie a hey maker/sucker punch.

Try to get that person to work the throw (or suckerpunch) into a contest and they'll fail miserably.

Sure you'll see them work sometimes, but mostly they won't.

So the set up to the throw is 90% of the technique, and thats where a non judoka falls short.. Its almost painful for me to watch some fights where I can see a clear oppertunity to throw from the clinch ~ its screaming at me, but the non Judoka doesn't see it and the chance is gone.

Also people expect the judoka to launch massive hip & shoulder throws because they look spectacular and are clearly indentifiable as Judo techniques but I tell newbies to Judo ~ why throw someone into the air to throw them on the ground, 'throw your opponent to the ground!.

Until very recently single/double leg grabs were all legitimate judo techniques, as was the supplex as was the firemans carry but to most who see a judo do these that person thinks the judo is crossing over into wrestling.

Too long ~ short version, there is a lot more to judo than tossing someone into the air.

To speak to this - I would have a basic level of Judo - I don't have the confidence to work body throws into my MMA game. Trips and stuff, easy. Way less committing (osoto gari, ouchi gari, single leg sweeps etc etc). But I'm afraid of getting my back taken when committing to any kind of body throw (harai goshi, tai otoshi, basic hip throw, ippon seoi nage etc etc).

There's no doubt they can be done with the right setups and entries, you're absolutely right. It'll be fantastic seeing what Rousey can do vs an Olympic level wrestler.

riffmongous

This might be of interest, I remember seeing it ages ago

Ronda-Rouseys-Technique-of-the-Week-Osoto-Throw-39999

The point about not going straight back but at an angle is really useful and you can apply it to a lot of wrestling holds too

riffmongous

Harmoni Moldy Shredder wrote: »

Ura nage, yes. Its still legal but there are rules to gripping on it now. I'm open to correction but so far as I can remember (I'll be competing next month and March so I'll be brushing up soon) you can not 'bear hug' (ie join hands) on the grip and you can't grab below the belt.

That's a pity, it used to be a great throw

arybvtcw0eolkf

Gumbi wrote: »

To speak to this - I would have a basic level of Judo - I don't have the confidence to work body throws into my MMA game. Trips and stuff, easy. Way less committing (osoto gari, ouchi gari, single leg sweeps etc etc). But I'm afraid of getting my back taken when committing to any kind of body throw (harai goshi, tai otoshi, basic hip throw, ippon seoi nage etc etc).

There's no doubt they can be done with the right setups and entries, you're absolutely right. It'll be fantastic seeing what Rousey can do vs an Olympic level wrestler.

I understand what you're saying, but if you can work a trip/footsweep then the Osoto's etc should come off that.. This is where understanding breaking balance and combinations comes into play (Judo is a steep learning curve) and as you've discovered some things in Judo just don't make sense (turning your back on someone) but if you've broken your opponents balance to his/her rear the Osoto Gari, Kouchi Gari etc are completely safe..

You'll see Ronda faint an Uchimata and when her opponent pulls to the rear to defend the uchi mata Ronda will switch her attack in that direction for a Kouchi Gari.

A foot technique you see used a lot in MMA is Ko-soto-Gaki;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_792O41cHE

and Ko-Uchi Gake;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51fCLrPSrKU

You've probably used them yourself when you feel your opponents balance break to his rear or when he's backing away from you ~ front throws work on the same principle. As I said earlier the set up is 90% of the throw, the last 10% is the easy part when your opponents balance has been broken to the direction you're going to throw.

Gumbi

Absolutely. Partly a confidence thing like I said. But of course, chaining them together takes skill, and the of course, without a gi it's tougher again to have good control over your opponent, (tight clinch, under/overs etc). And of course rousey has a pretty vicious body clinch*:P

Head and arm I mean *

arybvtcw0eolkf

Another plus Rousey has is she came into MMA in her Judo prime and not as she was retiring or retired.