Do the big owners make a profit??

meath4sam

The likes of gigginstown and McManus. They spent big money on jumps horses and get little prize money unless it's 1 in 50 that goes on to be a star. Is there a profit to be made in jumps racing or are they in it for the love of it or to get there day out in Cheltenham with a winner which my be priceless. Or is for tax reasons??

longshotvalue

meath4sam wrote: »

The likes of gigginstown and McManus. They spent big money on jumps horses and get little prize money unless it's 1 in 50 that goes on to be a star. Is there a profit to be made in jumps racing or are they in it for the love of it or to get there day out in Cheltenham with a winner which my be priceless. Or is for tax reasons??

There is just now way there is any profit in it.. Id say the goal would be to loose an acceptable amount for their enjoyment..

meath4sam

aidankkk wrote: »

There is just now way there is any profit in it.. Id say the goal would be to loose an acceptable amount for their enjoyment..

Just like me backing horses so.

mountai

WELL I"M A small owner AND I NEVER MADE A BOB !!!! I used to love it , I used to love it once !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ste2010

There are tax benefits right? Also I'm sure you could make what you pay if you have a big enough fleet and you lay and bet

hucklebuck

They probably make a few bob backing/ laying them too

sirdes

ste2010 wrote: »

There are tax benefits right? Also I'm sure you could make what you pay if you have a big enough fleet and you lay and bet

What tax breaks are you talking about? They lose money the same as anyone else who buy horses

Francie Barrett

hucklebuck wrote: »

They probably make a few bob backing/ laying them too

Laying your own horse is banned.

hucklebuck

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Laying your own horse is banned.

So is not running horses on their merits and using the course for schooling but that happens too.

Francie Barrett

hucklebuck wrote: »

So is not running horses on their merits and using the course for schooling but that happens too.

Yea, but that point will always be open to debate and interpretation Laying your own horse is more clear cut, you've either done it or you haven't. I am sure some of the smaller trainers are at this caper, but I doubt the likes of McManus or O'Leary would risk destroying their reputation to make a few thousand pounds in some crappy handicap hurdle in Ballinrobe.

BumperD

sirdes wrote: »

What tax breaks are you talking about? They lose money the same as anyone else who buy horses

Maybe If the losses are run through a company, i guess they could be shared within a group and set against profits of another group company, possibly. Having said that, the motivation to generate a loss in the first place would not be tax driven.

To answer the op, in the NH game, no.

ste2010

sirdes wrote: »

What tax breaks are you talking about? They lose money the same as anyone else who buy horses

It was more a question. Investing in the equine industry are there not some tax breaks

hucklebuck

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Yea, but that point will always be open to debate and interpretation Laying your own horse is more clear cut, you've either done it or you haven't. I am sure some of the smaller trainers are at this caper, but I doubt the likes of McManus or O'Leary would risk destroying their reputation to make a few thousand pounds in some crappy handicap hurdle in Ballinrobe.

There are ways and means, Patrick Veitch employs people to put his bets on as he is marked. It could be done.

Harry Angstrom

Sheikh Mohammed once said that if you want to make a small fortune in racing, start off with a big fortune.

Having said that, the Coolmore operation are able to make a nice living from it, but they come at it purely from a business point of view.

UrbanSea

JP must be losing an absolute fortune in racing. Would love to know the total numbers he has in training

Harry Angstrom

hucklebuck wrote: »

They probably make a few bob backing/ laying them too

I remember Darren Mercer being warned off for 6 months for laying his horse (Joss Naylor) on Betfair for the Welsh National after he knew it would be a non runner. The twit only made a few hundred from it before he was rumbled.

SRFC

Jp easily has 500 in training,some training bill,shows how much hes making in his business that his racing expenses are only a drop in the ocean.

Scortho

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Sheikh Mohammed once said that if you want to make a small fortune in racing, start off with a big fortune.

Having said that, the Coolmore operation are able to make a nice living from it, but they come at it purely from a business point of view.

In fairness Darley make a fortune in covering fees, bringing down the costs substantially.

hucklebuck

Flat is one thing where stud fees help you with your overheads but the amounts paid for NH horses these days is madness given they are buying geldings and no guarantees of the big prizes.

I love NH but if I was minted you would surely want to be not losing too much to keep buying more

Colonel Sanders

UrbanSea wrote: »

JP must be losing an absolute fortune in racing. Would love to know the total numbers he has in training

Yeah I'd say the likes of him & Gigginstown would do well to win back the training fees in prize money in a very good year, let alone the purchase prices

Needless to say they don't do it for the cash, even if JP still punts it wouldn't make a dent. Does O'Leary punt? He's associated with some gambling stables (e.g. Elliott & Byrnes) but have never heard of monster wagers on his horses the same way you'd read about JPs "battles" with the likes of Freddie Williams

The late David Johnson paired back his numbers a lot when the recession hit, said he couldn't justify blowing that much money on horses when he was making people redundant

jimjamcos

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Yeah I'd say the likes of him & Gigginstown would do well to win back the training fees in prize money in a very good year, let alone the purchase prices

Needless to say they don't do it for the cash, even if JP still punts it wouldn't make a dent. Does O'Leary punt? He's associated with some gambling stables (e.g. Elliott & Byrnes) but have never heard of monster wagers on his horses the same way you'd read about JPs "battles" with the likes of Freddie Williams

The late David Johnson paired back his numbers a lot when the recession hit, said he couldn't justify blowing that much money on horses when he was making people redundant

Trainers you mention do but don't think OLeary punts AFAIK. Think they mentioned on Sunday Forum awhile back that JP has around 600 in trainng.

brandon_flowers

JP puts down more horses every year than Rich Ricci currently owns. Even the medium sized owners like the late Patsy Byrne, Barry Connell, Wyllie et al are losing money.



If you are in it to make money become a bookie.

NewApproach

Obviously the big NH owners lose money, but I'd be interested to see whose operating is the most efficient, i.e. losing the least per winner/graded winner etc.

I'd say Barry Connell is tailed off.

bit of a bogey

NewApproach wrote: »

Obviously the big NH owners lose money, but I'd be interested to see whose operating is the most efficient, i.e. losing the least per winner/graded winner etc.

I'd say Barry Connell is tailed off.

Would be nice to see alright but I say McManus is prob still the worst based on the shear quantity of horses he has. Barry Connell would have a fairly abysmal returns % but thats because generally buys already established potential from the course.

Alot of poeple dont like McManus and his dominance but at least to his credit he does spread them around. Similarly many are critical of the strength of the Willie Mullins yard but at least the horses are coming to Ireland?..........

Apparently Nichols and Henderson cant compete with his buying power at the moment.

Motivator

Simply put - no!

Absolutely impossible for the likes of JP or Gigginstown to make a profit doing what they're doing. Someone mentioned JP has 600 in training, that's a crazy amount. No way in he'll he could make anything remotely close to a profit. What I do admire about JP is he doesn't care who's training his horses, his attitude is if they're good enough they'll win races no matter who's training them. He has horses with AP O Brien, Henderson, James Nash & John Kiely. I would love to see his accounts at the end of the year!!!

If you have a small operation & had a string of decent horses you could probably turn a profit from owning a few summer horses that win a couple of races at different tracks across Ireland in the summer months.

klairondavis

McCoy has said that JP will often ring him up to discuss horses who can barely get out of their own way. The man just loves the game and adores his horses. His support must keep hundreds in employment in yards up and down Ireland and the UK.

nuckeythompson

I second that, huge emplyers these big guns are

artanevilla

Not in National Hunt anyway. The big flat operators do, but that's mainly due to breeding rather than racing.

brandon_flowers

Something I forgot to add is that there is a deep Irish obsession with having a better horse than neighbour or enemy no matter the cost. It's how steeplechasing came about and why Ireland are still so good at it given the size of the country.

realdanbreen

brandon_flowers wrote: »

JP puts down more horses every year than Rich Ricci currently owns. Even the medium sized owners like the late Patsy Byrne, Barry Connell, Wyllie et al are losing money.



If you are in it to make money become a bookie.

JP's brother Kevin is a bookie.:cool:

wicklowwonder

realdanbreen wrote: »

JP's brother Kevin is a bookie.:cool:

JP owns a massive slice of Ladbrokes as well.

Colonel Sanders

wicklowwonder wrote: »

JP owns a massive slice of Ladbrokes as well.

Source for this? They're a publicly listed company so you should have no problem backing it up

wicklowwonder

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Source for this? They're a publicly listed company so you should have no problem backing it up

On my phone at the moment but pretty sure his investment company that also owns Sandy Lane in Barbardos owns a big percent of the company. Tabor and Magnier also involved in Sandy Lane I think.

brandon_flowers

I doubt it is a massive slice that JP and Magnier own. Last time I heard it mentioned it was around 5%, so not an influential stake at all. And I am sure that everyone in the racing game can be tied back to a bookie or a punter through friendship/family/marriage or some other way. Betting is so intertwined with horse racing that it is inevitable.

wicklowwonder

brandon_flowers wrote: »

I doubt it is a massive slice that JP and Magnier own. Last time I heard it mentioned it was around 5%, so not an influential stake at all. And I am sure that everyone in the racing game can be tied back to a bookie or a punter through friendship/family/marriage or some other way. Betting is so intertwined with horse racing that it is inevitable.

5% would be big for a company like Ladbrokes. Especially if say Tabor, Magnier and Joe Lewis all have 5% as well. They are close allies so 20% of any company in their hands is pretty big shareholding.

But yeah most owners can be tied to a bookie or two, as can most jockeys. Ruby regularly writes for Paddy Power for example.

brandon_flowers

Magnier/McManus/Tabor et al share holding is in total 5% so still not significant. 5% does not even give you a seat on the board so they are in it purely for the dividend that is returned.

tipptom

Didn't Kevin McManus bookies operation go under a few years ago?,the same as JPs bookie operation years back.
He would be on much safer ground with Ladbrokes especially with their non racing and online betting.


I would say JPs is a massive loss maker but its his hobby,loves being around trainers and jockeys and knows his breeding and is set against certain sires.


Would love to sit down with him and hear storys about Mr Donavon and Jack of Trumps and the gambles when he needed them and Eddie o Grady(whats happened there?).


Have to say that most people I know would cheer on JPs rather than MOLs and it says something about the man himself when people are cheering on a billionaire owner!


Racing is a black hole for NH owners and very few on the flat would make it pay unless they have a slick breeding operation going.

Colonel Sanders

Last time I was racing (during the summer, evening meeting at Leopardstown. Don't go racing as much these days) there was a lad betting under the Kevin McManus banner but it wasn't the man himself

realdanbreen

ste2010 wrote: »

There are tax benefits right? Also I'm sure you could make what you pay if you have a big enough fleet and you lay and bet

Of course!
Anyone who believes that businessmen like JP & MOL are losing large wads because they are owners is mistaken. If you believe that you probably also believe that JP made his fortune driving a JCB during the day and playing poker at night!

tipptom

realdanbreen wrote: »

Of course!
Anyone who believes that businessmen like JP & MOL are losing large wads because they are owners is mistaken. If you believe that you probably also believe that JP made his fortune driving a JCB during the day and playing poker at night!

Don't know anyone who believes that,in fact JP himself says that he had to go back driving for his auld fella as he kept going skint laying horses.


You seem so sure about these businesses making profits,i would just like to see where you think the money is made.

Scortho

tipptom wrote: »

Don't know anyone who believes that,in fact JP himself says that he had to go back driving for his auld fella as he kept going skint laying horses.


You seem so sure about these businesses making profits,i would just like to see where you think the money is made.

I'd say it's more using the loss to write off tax owed elsewhere while still getting your fun.

NewApproach

I presume you are just guessing that they can tax breaks?

Scortho

NewApproach wrote: »

I presume you are just guessing that they can tax breaks?

Yes, I don't have the time to delve into it at the moment, but there's no way they'd pump the money into it, just for the love of the sport. Especially o Leary, he's too shrewd to lose a fortune every year. There has to be tax advantages to it.

davesmith7

Lads what planet are you on? You don't get any tax breaks for buying horses or paying trainer fees. Stallion fee income is tax exempt in Ireland though.

If a company owns the horses then there may be tax efficient ways of managing the affairs. But it won't save you any tax from personal income that has not been invested in the horses.

faoile@n

davesmith7 wrote: »

Lads what planet are you on? You don't get any tax breaks for buying horses or paying trainer fees. Stallion fee income is tax exempt in Ireland though.

If a company owns the horses then there may be tax efficient ways of managing the affairs. But it won't save you any tax from personal income that has not been invested in the horses.

That was abolished in 2008 due to European anti-competition laws

tipptom

Scortho wrote: »

Yes, I don't have the time to delve into it at the moment, but there's no way they'd pump the money into it, just for the love of the sport. Especially o Leary, he's too shrewd to lose a fortune every year. There has to be tax advantages to it.

I think its exactly for the love of NH racing is why they pump money in to it.


Now obviously I don't know the intricacy's of their business but it is obvious that their prize winnings do not meet any where near their costs,(and I would say AP relieves JP of more of his prizemoney % as part of his retainer and probably Frank Berry as well.)


I haven't seen anybody able to point out how they would break even and how they would achieve that in the NH game?,even if they did get tax breaks which I very much doubt.

jimjamcos

Lads, both McManus and O'Leary are largely self made multi-millionaires. I'd say they're of the opinion that blowing some of their money on something that gives them fun and enjoyment is better than leaving it to the kids to play with when they bite the dust. It represents a sense of philanthropy for two successful and positive people, I'd guess.