Is it illegal to use a rude gesture in public?

bobbyss

Is 'giving the finger' a gesture that is against the law if used in public? Can a person be reported to the police for using this gesture?

Could the person be charged? With what and under what Act? If someone used this gesture towards me (and possibly in the presence of children-but would that make any difference?) I would take offence. But would I have any recourse? Has anybody any experience of this situation and fetl similarly offended. Thanks.

ScaliaJ

Potentially.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0006.html#sec6

Santa Cruz

Using the finger could be deemed an offence under the Criminal Justice(Public Order) Act. However the circumstances in which the gesture was given will decide whether an offence was committed or not.
For example giving the finger to a motorist who pulled out in front of you or who beeped the horn at you could be an offence but giving the finger to a pal in the pub who was slagging you wouldn't be.

bobbyss

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Using the finger could be deemed an offence under the Criminal Justice(Public Order) Act. However the circumstances in which the gesture was given will decide whether an offence was committed or not.
For example giving the finger to a motorist who pulled out in front of you or who beeped the horn at you could be an offence but giving the finger to a pal in the pub who was slagging you wouldn't be.

I agree with that. Typically it is the motoring situation where it occours. But as per the legislation in the first reply says if his 'intent was to provoke a breach of the peace' then it is unlawful I think.

What I do not understand is that anyone who gave you the finger could simply say that he did not mean to breach any peace and therefore he is not guilty of anything? That would excuse anybody who gives you the finger from any crime.

234

bobbyss wrote: »

I agree with that. Typically it is the motoring situation where it occours. But as per the legislation in the first reply says if his 'intent was to provoke a breach of the peace' then it is unlawful I think.

What I do not understand is that anyone who gave you the finger could simply say that he did not mean to breach any peace and therefore he is not guilty of anything? That would excuse anybody who gives you the finger from any crime.

First of all, if you look further on you can see that recklessness as to whether the gesture would cause a breach of the peace would also qualify.

Secondly, intention can be proved even if the accused denies that it was present. Murder requires an intention to kill or seriously injure. All those not admitting would naturally deny the intention. That is not eh end of the inquiry. It is then for the prosecutor to show that intention was present.

bobbyss

234 wrote: »

First of all, if you look further on you can see that recklessness as to whether the gesture would cause a breach of the peace would also qualify.

Secondly, intention can be proved even if the accused denies that it was present. Murder requires an intention to kill or seriously injure. All those not admitting would naturally deny the intention. That is not eh end of the inquiry. It is then for the prosecutor to show that intention was present.

Thanks for that 234.
I got the finger recently from a motorist, and felt upset and offended but somewhat powerless as to what to do.

I remained calm but wanted justice to be served. As we were both stationary I should have got out of the car and took photo of his reg number (and him) to report same to police. I wonder what would have happened if I had done that? Would it have been worth all the bloody hassle I wonder?

234

Ok, members of the Gardai would be better placed to discuss this, but, I really can't see giving somebody the finger qualifying as the above offence in any but the most extreme circumstances.

The fact that this offence falls under the heading of public order suggest that it is more designed to deal with things like Nazi salutes that could spark actual rioting or fighting in certain highly charged scenarios.

Very few people give somebody the finger thinking "I bet this will cause a breach of the peace" or some colloquial equivalent.

If somebody gives me the finger I would be irritated, but honestly, I don't think that the criminal justice system ever comes to mind as a solution.

Has anybody ever seen this offence prosecuted, and what was the gesture in question?

lollsangel

I dont think that you could get someone prosecuted for g8ving you the finger tbh. I wouldnt be too upset its just a wsy of letting off steam. Id prefer to get the finger 5han have someone bash my car in a rage bcos I accidently cut them off

bobbyss

234 wrote: »

Ok, members of the Gardai would be better placed to discuss this, but, I really can't see giving somebody the finger qualifying as the above offence in any but the most extreme circumstances.

The fact that this offence falls under the heading of public order suggest that it is more designed to deal with things like Nazi salutes that could spark actual rioting or fighting in certain highly charged scenarios.

Very few people give somebody the finger thinking "I bet this will cause a breach of the peace" or some colloquial equivalent.

If somebody gives me the finger I would be irritated, but honestly, I don't think that the criminal justice system ever comes to mind as a solution.

Has anybody ever seen this offence prosecuted, and what was the gesture in question?

I'd like to know the answer to the last question as well.

Has anybody given the finger to a Garda I wonder. The law applies to them equally as it does to the rest of us. They presumably have the same recourse as others. If a Garda took action about this gesture (eg arrest) that means other people can do likewise I would imagine.

brian_t

bobbyss wrote: »

I should have got out of the car and took photo of his reg number (and him)

In those circustances I wonder if you taking a photograph of him could be seen (by him) as an act of agression on your part.

brian_t

Man in trouble after giving Gardaí 'the finger'

MAN who stuck up his middle finger at Gardai and shouted obscenities at them was sentenced to one month's imprisonment at last week's sitting of Wicklow District Court.
...
He pleaded guilty to the charge and Garda Eoin McGrath told Judge Murrough Connellan that while he was on duty in the patrol car 'name removed' 'began gesturing with his middle finger and shouted obscenities' at the Garda car as it passed.
...

bobbyss

brian_t wrote: »

In those circustances I wonder if you taking a photograph of him could be seen (by him) as an act of agression on your part.

Yes I had thought of that but by remaining calm and not engaging with the man I am not doing anything illegal by taking his photograph.

The case referred to is interesting but it seems using the finger was not the sole reason he was charged. He apparently was aggressive and using obscenities as well so maybe he was charged for that and not the finger.

The essential point is if someone gives the finger to a Garda what could the Garda do if he takes offence? Can i do the same thing if I take offence? (Do we have the same rights?)
Thanks for your response.

amandstu

Others here seem to play down its importance but I would have said that it is a very serious thing to do in a car and should merit automatic penalty points if proven.

I have been fined twice (with penalty points) for failing to wear a seat belt and I consider that to be much less serious (if at all) .

When I learned to drive it was emphasized the you have to go out of your way to be courteous going so far as to remember to open the door for the tester before you started the car ,giving way whenever reasonable etc.

If someone gave me the finger I would be very upset and unforgiving.

Days 298

amandstu wrote: »

Others here seem to play down its importance but I would have said that it is a very serious thing to do in a car and should merit automatic penalty points if proven.

I have been fined twice (with penalty points) for failing to wear a seat belt and I consider that to be much less serious (if at all) .

If someone gave me the finger I would be very upset and unforgiving.

Really?
Generally the middle finger is given by one driver to another to express displeasure. Many drivers give it on an infrequent basis while others use the horn. Most drivers dont dish them out like there is no tomorrow. They normally have a valid reason and use it as a way to express annoyance and tell the driver to cop on and to make the driver know they have unnecessarily inconvenienced/endangered another driver.

You not wearing a seat belt (twice!) can turn a minor accident into a serious one. There is no comparison. Were you not taught to buckle up while learning!

When I learned to drive it was emphasized the you have to go out of your way to be courteous going so far as to remember to open the door for the tester before you started the car ,giving way whenever reasonable etc.

You are never supposed to give way whenever possible. Its a mark against you on the test. If you have right of way you keep driving.

salad_monster

I know someone who was arrested and detained for three hours in a cell for alledgedly making a gesture at someone , the guy who accused him is well connected with AGS , nothing came of it in the end as the guy refused to answer a single question in the interview room , whole thing was a farce

sligoface

234 wrote: »

Ok, members of the Gardai would be better placed to discuss this, but, I really can't see giving somebody the finger qualifying as the above offence in any but the most extreme circumstances.

The fact that this offence falls under the heading of public order suggest that it is more designed to deal with things like Nazi salutes that could spark actual rioting or fighting in certain highly charged scenarios.

Very few people give somebody the finger thinking "I bet this will cause a breach of the peace" or some colloquial equivalent.

If somebody gives me the finger I would be irritated, but honestly, I don't think that the criminal justice system ever comes to mind as a solution.

Has anybody ever seen this offence prosecuted, and what was the gesture in question?

I was issued a public order offense ticket thingy through the post for giving a gardai the finger because I felt he had mistreated me. It was a small fine, I just paid it because I didn't want the hassle.

Situation was: on the Thursday before Good Friday, two gardai came in 5 min after 12 and started kicking all the customers out. I was with my gf with a half full pint in front of me, I didn't say anything to the gardai but I think I said something about it being effin ridiculous to my gf and maybe they overheard, I dunno what the reason was, but for some reason he picked me out of everyone and started insisting to me specifically that I finish my pint and leave.

I said I wasn't breaking any laws and was entitled to finish the drink I bought and then I would leave. I wasn't rude, did not use bad language or raise my voice to the guard as I was a regular there and would not want to cause the pub owner hassle but I stood up for myself. The gardai, who looked about 12, took a dislike to that I guess, and kept giving out to me as I sat at the bar. When I left, I saw him get into his car after leaving the other pub on the street and flipped him the bird as he drove past. Five minutes later, we were nearly back to out flat when he drives by again, stops and gets out and takes my name and address.

So I guess if it is a gardai it might be illegal. I wasn't going to bother fighting it to find out though. I realized I had been stupid and immature so I made my wee donation and now I don't go out on Holy Thursday any more.

bobbyss

sligoface wrote: »

I was issued a public order offense ticket thingy through the post for giving a gardai the finger because I felt he had mistreated me. It was a small fine, I just paid it because I didn't want the hassle.

Situation was: on the Thursday before Good Friday, two gardai came in 5 min after 12 and started kicking all the customers out. I was with my gf with a half full pint in front of me, I didn't say anything to the gardai but I think I said something about it being effin ridiculous to my gf and maybe they overheard, I dunno what the reason was, but for some reason he picked me out of everyone and started insisting to me specifically that I finish my pint and leave.

I said I wasn't breaking any laws and was entitled to finish the drink I bought and then I would leave. I wasn't rude, did not use bad language or raise my voice to the guard as I was a regular there and would not want to cause the pub owner hassle but I stood up for myself. The gardai, who looked about 12, took a dislike to that I guess, and kept giving out to me as I sat at the bar. When I left, I saw him get into his car after leaving the other pub on the street and flipped him the bird as he drove past. Five minutes later, we were nearly back to out flat when he drives by again, stops and gets out and takes my name and address.

So I guess if it is a gardai it might be illegal. I wasn't going to bother fighting it to find out though. I realized I had been stupid and immature so I made my wee donation and now I don't go out on Holy Thursday any more.

Yes you might have been immature but well done for sticking up for yourself. I admire that. But back to the fundamental question: if someone gave you the finger have you the same recourse as that Garda?

Why does he have the right to do that to you? If John Doe gave you the finger, can you get a garda to issue him a public order offence as you were? If not, why not? By the way, what was written on the Public Order Offence? Was there a reference to gesture/curse or was it something general?

sligoface

bobbyss wrote: »

Yes you might have been immature but well done for sticking up for yourself. I admire that. But back to the fundamental question: if someone gave you the finger have you the same recourse as that Garda?

Why does he have the right to do that to you? If John Doe gave you the finger, can you get a garda to issue him a public order offence as you were? If not, why not? By the way, what was written on the Public Order Offence? Was there a reference to gesture/curse or was it something general?

I don't think he did have any right but I wasn't going to bother fighting it in this case because I was keen to keep it off my record which I think is what happens if you just pay. I think it was like 120 or 140 euro fine. That same year a man here in Sligo who already had a violent criminal record was fined 400 euro for threatening to burn down his ex gf's house which just shows how much of a joke the system is, small crimes or nonexistent crimes are given punishments nearly the same as serious ones. I highly doubt you could press charges based on a rude gesture from a member of the public and I doubt any one would bother.

Actually just remembered there was a little more to it. When they stopped us and took my name, my gf gave out out to him about soliciting sex from prostitutes. A few months earlier this garda member was part of a bust on a local brothel ran by eastern Europeans. My gf who is Czech was hired to translate during the investigation and was told by the arrested women that this member and another one had been taking sexual favors in return for operating undisturbed, then turned around and arrested them anyway. When my gf asked the women if she wanted to bring this matter to the attention of the guards, they said no for fear it would make things worse on them. But when she saw him this night, she said it right to his face which was brilliant because his partner along with him was a young female guard, and he immediately went silent, turned bright red and walked back to his car he was so embarrassed. I thought maybe he might decide to leave it alone then, but I guess it had the opposite effect because we still got the ticket. Anyway my gf and I split the cost, both agreeing it was worth to see the look on the hypocrite scumbags face.

No it just said the location and maybe the time, and 'public order offense' no mention of the gesture or anything specific. I thought it was complete crap since we were not even at the location on the ticket any more when my name was taken down and were in fact walking home and were just unlucky that he drove past again. But I'd say after hearing what my gf revealed about him, he wished he didn't stop!

bobbyss

sligoface wrote: »

I don't think he did have any right but I wasn't going to bother fighting it in this case because I was keen to keep it off my record which I think is what happens if you just pay. I think it was like 120 or 140 euro fine.

No it just said the location and maybe the time, and 'public order offense' no mention of the gesture or anything specific. I thought it was complete crap since we were not even at the location on the ticket any more when my name was taken down and were in fact walking home and were just unlucky that he drove past again. But I'd say after hearing what my gf revealed about him, he wished he didn't stop!

He must have had the right to issue that. And if he has the right then non-Gardai have the right, as we are all treated equally before the law, are we not?

The Garda in question must have been offended by the gesture, but (excuse me for repeating my point) but if X gives Y the finger and Y is offended, can not Y have X issued a Public Order Offence, as you were ?

Thanks for you response

sligoface

bobbyss wrote: »

He must have had the right to issue that. And if he has the right then non-Gardai have the right, as we are all treated equally before the law, are we not?

The Garda in question must have been offended by the gesture, but (excuse me for repeating my point) but if X gives Y the finger and Y is offended, can not Y have X issued a Public Order Offence, as you were ?

Thanks for you response

He can issue whatever he wants, doesn't mean I actually broke any law or that it would hold up in court, and certainly doesn't mean that one member of the public could force the police to issue a pub order offense on someone who flips them the bird on the basis that they were offended. If you read the rest of my post this particular officer was not known for adhering to moral or legal codes, the fact he issued the ticket does not IMO indicate in any way that making a rude gesture to a member of the public is illegal.

CarMe

Yeah I was pulled over for giving an undercover car the fingers and told it was a serious offense as it could cause road rage etc.
They didn't prosecute because I was apologetic but did tell me what an eejit I am, rightly so!

sawdoubters

with so many murders I am sure the garda have time to investigate the finger