Can I be liable for an unpaid bill by a customer?

kapisko1PL

Hello All,

I had this very interesting situation in the place in which I work.

I was serving afternoon tea for a group of customers and after about half an hour my colleague who was serving the table beside me took an order from the customers from the other table and told me they decided to order some drinks. Yeah, no problem. My colleague told me to give them a bill (they were not finished eating/drinking yet). I gave them the drinks but forgot about the bill and they left about half an hour after I went home. They left without paying and my manager is half serious telling me that I might be liable for a bill worth E100.

Can he just take it away from my wages (equivelant to 2 days of work) or no?

Many Thanks

Ken.

Is it in your contract.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/pay_and_employment/pay_slip.html

Where your employer suffers loss through your fault, for example breakages or till shortages or your employer supplies a service as part of the job, for example, a uniform, deductions may be allowed. In these cases a deduction (or payment by the employee) is only allowed where:

It is allowed for in your contract
It is fair and reasonable
You have received a written notice of the deduction - a full week's notice if the deduction arises from your mistake
The amount of the deduction does not exceed the loss or cost of the service
The deduction takes place within 6 months of the loss/cost occurring

Failure to pay all or part of the wages due to an employee is considered an unlawful deduction and a complaint can be made under the Payment of Wages Act – see ‘How to apply’ below. Likewise, unpaid notice, holiday pay, bonus and commission payments can also form part of a claim under the Act.

Filibuster

Your manager sounds like a dick. You'll have to look at your contract and see if allows such deductions.

Where your employer suffers loss through your fault, for example breakages or till shortages or your employer supplies a service as part of the job, for example, a uniform, deductions may be allowed. In these cases a deduction (or payment by the employee) is only allowed where:

• It is allowed for in your contract
• It is fair and reasonable
• You have received a written notice of the deduction - a full week's notice if the deduction arises from your mistake
• The amount of the deduction does not exceed the loss or cost of the service
• The deduction takes place within 6 months of the loss/cost occurring

Failure to pay all or part of the wages due to an employee is considered an unlawful deduction and a complaint can be made under the Payment of Wages Act – see ‘How to apply’ below. Likewise, unpaid notice, holiday pay, bonus and commission payments can also form part of a claim under the Act.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/pay_and_employment/pay_slip.html

kapisko1PL

The deduction takes place within 6 months of the loss/cost occurring

So it means yes since it happened yesterday. i.e 28.12.2013?

Filibuster

kapisko1PL wrote: »

So it means yes since it happened yesterday. i.e 28.12.2013?

Yeah but it also says the deduction must be "fair and reasonable". Since they left without paying after you went home I can't see that it's your fault tbh.

kapisko1PL

I will ask for the copy of my contract at work since I cannot find it in my documents.

The thing is, my colleague left a bill for me to give to the customers before I gave them the drinks. I then gave them the drinks but forgot about the bill. I went home and then got a phone call from my colleague that the customers left without paying. I went home at 4:30pm and got a call at around 9-10pm. I might be wrong on this one but in my opinion it is the customers that stole the drinks.

Greenmachine

Sorry to hear this happening to you OP. Hope you don't have to pay the bill.

seb65

kapisko1PL wrote: »

I will ask for the copy of my contract at work since I cannot find it in my documents.

The thing is, my colleague left a bill for me to give to the customers before I gave them the drinks. I then gave them the drinks but forgot about the bill. I went home and then got a phone call from my colleague that the customers left without paying. I went home at 4:30pm and got a call at around 9-10pm. I might be wrong on this one but in my opinion it is the customers that stole the drinks.

You're right. It's the customers that stole the drinks. Not getting a timely bill in a restaurant does not entitle people to leave without paying.

Even if you did forget to pass them the bill, it is not your fault. They "dined and dashed" after you went home. Ultimately the fault lies with the thieves, but if the scabby manager is insistent on blaming someone, it should be whoever let them out the door without paying.

kapisko1PL

Thanks for the information guys. Really helpful Cheered me up a bit.

Many Thanks,
Kacper

Shelflife

Did they get food and drink?

Did they get a bill for the food but not for the drink or vice versa?

doublej

Shelflife wrote: »

Did they get food and drink?

Did they get a bill for the food but not for the drink or vice versa?

It would seem that the group got food( served by a colleague) and drink( served by OP).

It is stated by OP that she forgot to provide the group with the bill which would have included both food and drink elements.

There are a number of factors to be considered before giving a definitive answer to the question posed by OP,

1.Regardless of whether there is a Contractural Clause that would allow for lawful deductions to be made, if there is a policy in the establishment that makes it easy for diners to leave without paying then the establishment is also at fault.

2.It would be unjust and unfair if the management allowed customers to abuse their hospitality by giving them the freedom to abscond whilst insisting that a staff member would always have to foot the bill.

3.There are varying degrees of trust granted by food establishments to their clientele; in some cases( fast food), payment is demanded prior to service, in other places( self service,canteens, etc) payment is made at a till point before the food is taken away or brought to a table.
Where the establishment elects to extend trust to include periods of time beyond service of food and drink, there needs to be a VERY clear procedure in place to prevent non payment of the bill.
Each person employed must be very clear of their duties and responsibilities to protect their employer whilst at the same time ensuring that the customer is treated with respect and courtesy.

4.A number of posters have resorted to abusing the manager; I am fairly certain that such an attitude will not result in a lasting solution and is unhelpful to erect barriers when seeking an approach that is fair and reasonable to ALL sides.

5. If the OP could forget about the Contract and whether or not she may or may not have an obligation to make good the loss incurred and seek from the Management a WRITTEN policy on Bill presentation and payment procedures to be provided to all employees.
This would be used as the framework through which any deductions may be contemplated, with clear lines of duties, responsibilities and obligations outlined.

hfallada

OP I can't see how you are liable. The customer obviously know they have a bill to pay. But left without paying it. How is it different to a customer filling up a tank of petrol and driving away with out payin it? Are you expected to tell the customer they have to pay for their petrol?

The customer knew they had a bill to pay regardless of whether you gave it or not. I don't think your colleague should have placed the blame on you. If it was her customers, they were her responsiblity. I would tell the manager to chase the customers for their unpaid bill and not you.

AerynSun

seb65 wrote: »

You're right. It's the customers that stole the drinks. Not getting a timely bill in a restaurant does not entitle people to leave without paying.

Even if you did forget to pass them the bill, it is not your fault. They "dined and dashed" after you went home. Ultimately the fault lies with the thieves, but if the scabby manager is insistent on blaming someone, it should be whoever let them out the door without paying.

The customer is never entitled to leave without paying, and if they didn't get a bill, they should have called a member of staff and asked about payment before leaving the establishment. The customer is legally at fault. In practice, good luck tracking them down and recouping the money, it's not going to happen, so the business is now out of pocket!

That said, while it is human to make mistakes and everybody makes mistakes sometimes (and forgetting to do something that one has been expressly instructed to do - like handing over a bill that had already been prepared by a co-worker), the reality is that mistakes have consequences that have to be faced. The business is out of money as a result of a staff mistake, and no business will survive if staff mistakes aren't minimised (if not entirely eliminated). To me, it sounds like the manager might be using this incident 'for training purposes' in an attempt to minimise future mistakes: to highlight the importance of not forgetting to do something as significant as billing the customer: and that's a pretty important task in the running of an establishment. Nice? No. Fair? Debatable. Likely to bring home the point that a member of staff should NOT leave their post unless and until they have completed billing the customers that they have served? Highly likely.

At 100 euro, it's an expensive training exercise for the staffer. But this time around it might be worth 'taking the hit' and making every effort to show the boss that you've 'learned the lesson' (because they could also be testing the staffer to see whether they appreciate the seriousness of lost income due to staff error). The boss might even relent and not make the deduction. But even if they don't relent: expensive lesson learned, and mistake unlikely to be repeated!

The other colleagues who 'let the customer out the door' was under the impression that OP had taken responsibility for billing the customer, so they are definitely not liable for OP's mistake! (Think if OP's colleague came on here asking for legal advice about what to do if the manager tried to hold them accountable after it was OP's table and the staff knew OP had been given the bill to hand over, and assumed that OP had done that task as requested: would you counsel them that they are required to foot the bill in this case? I don't think so).

If it was me, I would admit the mistake, take the hit, and pay close attention to billing in future. If the boss tried to deduct wages again for another future mistake, then I'd want to sit down and have a conversation about the training methods being used in the establishment - but otherwise, if I wanted to keep working there, I would make nice just this once.

Filibuster

^^^
That doesn't make sense. If the customer stole something how is it the fault of the staff membe, especially if their shift had ended and their at home. Confessing to something and taking the hit just to please the boss is stupid. It makes you look guilty, incompetent and a complete walk over.

seamus

A customer leaving without paying a bill is not an error on the part of the employee, therefore is not deductible from wages, full stop.

If the customer was fed up waiting for their bill to be delivered, what they should do is put on their coat and walk up to the till, making sure to be as big a nuisance as possible.

"I asked for the bill and they didn't give it to me, therefore I assume they don't want me to pay for my meal" wouldn't stand up in court.

Santa Cruz

kapisko1PL wrote: »

Hello All,

I had this very interesting situation in the place in which I work.

I was serving afternoon tea for a group of customers and after about half an hour my colleague who was serving the table beside me took an order from the customers from the other table and told me they decided to order some drinks. Yeah, no problem. My colleague told me to give them a bill (they were not finished eating/drinking yet). I gave them the drinks but forgot about the bill and they left about half an hour after I went home. They left without paying and my manager is half serious telling me that I might be liable for a bill worth E100.

Can he just take it away from my wages (equivelant to 2 days of work) or no?

Many Thanks

You gave them the bill but due to your admitted inefficiency you neglected to give them the complete bill. You are at fault for this loss and I think it is correct that you make up the loss. Perhaps you could come to some arrangement where you pay it off in instalments. I don't see why an employer should have to carry the loss

Geomy

Santa Cruz wrote: »

You gave them the bill but due to your admitted inefficiency you neglected to give them the complete bill. You are at fault for this loss and I think it is correct that you make up the loss. Perhaps you could come to some arrangement where you pay it off in instalments. I don't see why an employer should have to carry the loss

Are you serious ?

Shelflife

Many customers dont check the bill that they are given, if the OP gave them the wrong or incomplete bill then maybe (depending on contract or work practices) they may be liable to pay the bill.

Its not clear cut, but if the customer paid what they thought was the final bill then its not their fault but the restaurants fault.

If its the Restaurants fault then it has to be decided who screwed up. If it was the OPs fault then you cant expect the manager/owner to foot the bill because someone didnt do their job properly.

AerynSun

Filibuster wrote: »

... how is it the fault of the staff membe, especially if their shift had ended and their at home.

Neglecting to give the customer the already-prepared bill is the staff member's fault. What happened to that piece of paper? Dropped on the floor? Found in a jacket pocket the next day? Where did the bill go?

Confessing to something and taking the hit just to please the boss is stupid. It makes you look guilty, incompetent and a complete walk over.

Admitting a mistake is a smart move: makes a worker look like they understand what they did wrong and are willing to learn from their mistakes, increasing the boss's esteem for their integrity and building trust in them as someone who appreciates the value of payment for products and services.

Refusing to admit the mistake makes the worker look like a hard-arsed 'I know my rights' type who is going to end up costing the business time, money and heartache over and again in the future.

If I was the boss... I'd know which type of worker I'd be more inclined to hire and keep in the long term.

seamus

AerynSun wrote: »

Neglecting to give the customer the already-prepared bill is the staff member's fault.

Yes it is. However the customer walking out without paying, is not the staff member's fault. The loss incurred is due to theft on the part of the customer, not error on the part of staff.

Not being presented with a bill, does not mean that the customer's meal is free. Not in any restaurant in this country and not in any country that I've ever been to. You get the bill or you go to the till.

If I was the boss... I'd know which type of worker I'd be more inclined to hire and keep in the long term.

...the one who will pay your losses for you, I presume?

AerynSun

seamus wrote: »

Yes it is. However the customer walking out without paying, is not the staff member's fault. The loss incurred is due to theft on the part of the customer, not error on the part of staff.

Not being presented with a bill, does not mean that the customer's meal is free. Not in any restaurant in this country and not in any country that I've ever been to. You get the bill or you go to the till.

If you read my previous post, you will see that I said exactly the same thing.

...the one who will pay your losses for you, I presume?

No, not at all. The one who understands that they need to not create losses for me by not taking their job seriously.

For the record: I'm not in favour of an employer deducting money from anyone's wages - but the point here is: does the worker understand that they made a mistake, and how likely are they to make the same mistake again in the future?

One mistake = no biggie. A series of mistakes repeated over time because the 'worker knows their rights' more than they're willing to learn from a mistake, is going to be a problem, and will cause the worker to lose that job.

dearg lady

Santa Cruz wrote: »

You gave them the bill but due to your admitted inefficiency you neglected to give them the complete bill. You are at fault for this loss and I think it is correct that you make up the loss. Perhaps you could come to some arrangement where you pay it off in instalments. I don't see why an employer should have to carry the loss

I understood it that the table in question got no bill at all, and left without paying anything, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding?

Topper Harley

As I understand it and I'm not looking at it from a legal standpoint, the customers were still eating and drinking after the OP finished work. Surely someone else then took over responsibility for that table then.

And when the customers had finished, surely they would have asked for a bill (assuming they had intended to pay at all).

And if it's the case that they paid part of the bill but not for the drinks, how big a round was it that it cost €100. That sounds like they had more drinks after the OP left.

It sounds to me like either someone else made a mistake after the OP left or the customers did a runner which they were possibly going to do regardless.

In a work environment like that (highlighted by another member of staff serving drinks to the OP's table) clearly everyone works as a team. So after the OP had left, why was no one else keeping an eye on that table and their bill and why is it solely the OP's responsibility now?

kapisko1PL

Ok, I know some of you might be partially confused by this entire situation so i will try to explain it in a greater detail.

My shift starts at 7am and finishes at 3pm. (Varies with day). The place in which I work is a hotel. We have a restaurant and then maybe 10-15m away we have some sort of a guest room that overlooks gardens that is used to serve afternoon teas and if the guest wants to sit there and read or talk to his/her friends they are free to do so since this guestroom is 'free-to-enter'. It is however the restaurant's department that is responsible for maintaining that area.

After the breakfast I was asked by my manager to serve afternoon teas for a group of people. Once they arrived everything was fine I served them and they had a great time. In the meantime, another group of people (the one that didn't pay the bill) joined the table beside the first group and made an order for the afternoon tea. I brought them the afternoon tea and went back to the restaurant to help my friends. I was checking them regularly to ensure everything is fine and during one walk around I was asked by the first table if I could bring them more tea/coffee where in the meantime my colleague who was standing next to me (since she was going to take over since I was going home after my shift has ended) took an order for the drinks from the customers that then turned out to leave without paying.

She asked me if i could bring them the drinks and the bill. I brought them the drinks but I left the bill at the till and walked home since the night shift has arrived and replaced the morning shift.

Later I got a call from the same colleague that the customers to whom I have been asked to give a bill and forgot about left without paying. (they were still eating and drinking at the time when I left.)

To some people 100 euro might be a funny sum but to me it is a treasure that I have to work 2 days to gain.

Geomy

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill, it'll blow over and you won't have to pay anything.
If the place was doing well a few drinks shouldn't matter,sure if the place was managed right this would never have happened.

It all depends on the mindset of management, if they're dicks they'll try and make you pay if they're sound they will just forget about it.

I worked in a few place's run by dicks and it's an awful place to be....

Geomy

Santa Cruz wrote: »

You gave them the bill but due to your admitted inefficiency you neglected to give them the complete bill. You are at fault for this loss and I think it is correct that you make up the loss. Perhaps you could come to some arrangement where you pay it off in instalments. I don't see why an employer should have to carry the loss

This is what im talking about.

kapisko1PL

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill

I think you're right. He didn't say anything today so it seems to be relaxed now. I was just trying to get some advice if my next payslip will be missing 100 euro. Anyways, thanks a lot guys. You were really helpfull. You can close this thread

AerynSun

A hundred euro isn't a funny sum, it's a lot of money. And I do hope that your boss just lets it go - and he probably will, once he knows that you got enough of a fright that you wouldn't easily make the same mistake again soon. Sometimes bosses make a lot of noise when they don't intend to actually DO anything: in those cases the noise is more of a test than anything else. And to be fair, the fact you got enough of a fright to be asking your question here... says you're the kind of person who takes their work seriously - and I think your boss will be able to see that in the way you conduct yourself at work too.

Good luck! Fingers crossed he lets it go and doesn't say anything more about it.