Boundary fence who's responsible?

MyKeyG

In the recent weather my parents back garden fence was demolished. My dad and I put it in about 15 years ago. When we put it in the house next door was derelict, it's boundary was a hedgerow so in fact the fence was inside our property. About 6 years ago a contractor bought the premises next door, jazzed it up and landscaped the garden using our fence as the boundary, which made perfect sense, we had no problem with that. The thing is my parents aren't very well off, so they can't replace it straight away. I don't think the neighbours will give them trouble but I'm interested to know just in case. Who's responsibility is it to replace the fence if anybodies? My dad is worried that since it was their fence to begin with they might be responsible.

Bepolite

We had a similar set up, a wooden fence on our side of the original wire fence from when the houses were owned by the Army (this was in the UK). When the fence came down we replaced it. We did speak to our neighbours as my father is a bit of a bodger and was going to do it himself.

Basically we showed them what we had in mind and asked them if they wanted something different and if so they would been to pay the difference. They were fine with my father's solution of building it himself and thats what he did - looked reasonable too!

Involve your neighbours early on and try to be as reasonable as possible and hope they will be also.

Not legal advice just my 2 cents.

MyKeyG

Bepolite wrote: »

We had a similar set up, a wooden fence on our side of the original wire fence from when the houses were owned by the Army (this was in the UK). When the fence came down we replaced it. We did speak to our neighbours as my father is a bit of a bodger and was going to do it himself.

Basically we showed them what we had in mind and asked them if they wanted something different and if so they would been to pay the difference. They were fine with my father's solution of building it himself and thats what he did - looked reasonable too!

Involve your neighbours early on and try to be as reasonable as possible and hope they will be also.

Not legal advice just my 2 cents.

No I appreciate it. What my dad can afford to put in temporarily isn't exactly pleasing on the eye but it's all he can manage. I'm going to help him replace the panels we could salvage, they'll do the job but they look a bit grotty. The neighbours are only renting so it's not as straight forward as that but thanks for your reply.

dats_right

Generally the responsibility for maintaining party structures is the joint responsibility of adjoining owners.

MyKeyG

dats_right wrote: »

Generally the responsibility for maintaining party structures is the joint responsibility of adjoining owners.

Fair enough but I'm asking more from the viewpoint of the standard. Like say for example the neighbours agreed to go halves on a new partition but demanded something my parents couldn't afford? I mean are my parents even required to put up anything? Of course they want to I'm just covering my bases here.

sydthebeat

Half the costs to replace what was there would be minimum I would imagine. So if it was a timber post and rail fence, or post and panel, them half the costs.

If the neighbor wants to but a block wall then let them Cover the extra costs. This work can be Done without the express permission of both parties as per a recent act of law.

Best to get three prices to replace what was there and offer the neighbor half. If the neighbor wants to above and beyond this that's up to them.

It is not worth falling out with a neighbor over a few quid.

MyKeyG

sydthebeat wrote: »

Half the costs to replace what was there would be minimum I would imagine. So if it was a timber post and rail fence, or post and panel, them half the costs.

If the neighbor wants to but a block wall then let them Cover the extra costs. This work can be Done without the express permission of both parties as per a recent act of law.

Best to get three prices to replace what was there and offer the neighbor half. If the neighbor wants to above and beyond this that's up to them.

It is not worth falling out with a neighbor over a few quid.

No it was panel fencing, it's not cheap and 'a few quid' is a very relative term. But I pretty much got what I was looking for. It shouldn't get nasty but just wanted a general idea.

TopTec

Interesting that you refer to this fence as a 'boundary fence'. I suspect that that term could be challenged. It is effectively a fence on your parents property, albeit, close to the property boundary, and one might argue the fence is their responsibility.

However, if that fence was removed then it is open to you or your neighbours to negotiate some form of party fence/wall/hedge, in which you agree the costs.

I think the best advice is to approach and discuss with your neighbours an agreeable and equitable arrangement as, unlike the UK, there is no party wall agreement system.

Hope you reach a solution.

TT

MyKeyG

TopTec wrote: »

Interesting that you refer to this fence as a 'boundary fence'. I suspect that that term could be challenged.

Well I said that for want of better words. The fence was erected when next door had it's own partition, a hedgerow. The developer came in, removed the hedge and used our fence as the partition which as I said was inside the boundary line of my parents property because the hedge was so overgrown but they didn't mind losing a few inches.

The neighbours are lovely but it's not their house they're only renting, it's the landlord I'm concerned about. Basically what I'm asking is if the guy who owns next door can demand that my parents replace the fence?

234

OP, you should get professional advice as under the LACLRA 2009 works to party structures can trigger obligations to compensate adjoining owners for any damage, cost of getting professional advice re the works, etc.

If you are unwilling to get legal advice then at the least there should be some agreement with the neighbour.

As to the responsibility to pay for repairs, that's another question to take legal advice on. But you should start from the point that you can't compel a neighbour to pay for repairs to something you acknowledge is not theirs.

MyKeyG

234 wrote: »

But you should start from the point that you can't compel a neighbour to pay for repairs to something you acknowledge is not theirs.

You see that's my whole point I'm not talking about asking them to pay for anything as such, if the fence could be repaired we would do it ourselves but believe me it was pretty much obliterated. I'm asking if he (we're talking about the owner not the tenants/neighbours) can compel my parents to replace it just because he fancies having a partition between the two properties? There's a difference. He chose to remove the original boundary on his property and use what was already on my parents property as a partition. Now that's gone.

Like it could be a few months before my parents can get the cash together to put something proper in, such are their circumstances. I just want to know if the owner next door can lean on them claiming it's their responsibility?

The question is simple. Who is responsible for erecting a physical partition between two properties where none exists? Surely I don't have to go to a solicitor to find out!

TopTec

MyKeyG wrote: »

The question is simple. Who is responsible for erecting a physical partition between two properties where none exists?

I think the answer is simple too. No-one. Although in most cases boundaries of properties are defined in some way. Where one exists I would suggest that the owner that erected it should keep it in a good state of repair unless there is some form of agreement in existence with the owner of the adjoining property.

I personally wouldn't consult a solicitor in a case like this unless an agreement can't be reached amicably.

TT

234

MyKeyG wrote: »

You see that's my whole point I'm not talking about asking them to pay for anything as such, if the fence could be repaired we would do it ourselves but believe me it was pretty much obliterated. I'm asking if he (we're talking about the owner not the tenants/neighbours) can compel my parents to replace it just because he fancies having a partition between the two properties? There's a difference. He chose to remove the original boundary on his property and use what was already on my parents property as a partition. Now that's gone.

Like it could be a few months before my parents can get the cash together to put something proper in, such are their circumstances. I just want to know if the owner next door can lean on them claiming it's their responsibility?

The question is simple. Who is responsible for erecting a physical partition between two properties where none exists? Surely I don't have to go to a solicitor to find out!

Why would the answer be simple. First of all, unless an answer suggests itself as a matter of blindingly obvious common sense, then you likely would have to consult a solicitor.

Secondly, any answer will always depend on the exact nature of the titles involved. There could be covenants in respect of the boundary. The original hedge might not represent the actual legal boundary.

If you want to just talk to the neighbours and proceed on that basis then that's up to you. But if you want a legal answer, then especially with all things land related, you would need to consult a solicitor.

MyKeyG

TopTec wrote: »

Where one exists I would suggest that the owner that erected it should keep it in a good state of repair unless there is some form of agreement in existence with the owner of the adjoining property.

Well that's the thing there was no agreement. He just took down the hedge and used our fence. To be honest I really came here hoping someone might have a personal experience rather than legal knowledge.

Personally I can't imagine how it has anything to do with land laws. There's no disputing the legal boundary. When the houses were first built decades ago there were no partitions (probably should have mentioned that). The fence we did build was inside the boundary on our side so that's not an issue I just feel that when he developed the property he chose to remove his partition and adopt for convenience what we put up at our expense. Now it's gone we'd feel a little taken advantage of if he expected that my parents foot the entire bill.

Anyway thanks for all the advice guys and girls.

Discodog

In English law the ownership of boundaries is marked on the deeds by means of a little arrow.
Does this not apply in Ireland?

NamelessPhil

Your parents could check their house insurance and see if they can make a claim for the damaged fence. Otherwise the advice offered in post 13 by 234 stands.

Wheelnut

You are satisfied that the former fence was completely on your property and was erected by your family. I can't see how a third party could compel you to re-erect a fence inside your property.

I deliberately use the term "third party" because the neighbour's landlord is not the adjoining property owner to the fence, you own the property outside the fence.

evolving_doors

as someone mentioned ...the hedgerow might not necessarily be the ' legal' boundary in the first instance....and if it was..can you prove where it was seeing as how his property has been 'extended' up to yours by removing the hedgerow. Really and truly you dont know where the boundary is in the first instance ...for all you know you might be within your rights to rebuild your fence back where the roots of the hedgerow were.

Maybe look at it from the perspective of 'pre hedgerow destruction'...Your dad took it upon himself to erect a structure inside the boundary...what would he have done had the wind blown it down then? Would the neighbour be part liable...definitely not.
Was there any complaint or discussion when the hedge was removed ....definitely not.
So providing the hedgerow is the boundary then the fence is 100% your dads to do with as he pleases...(to fix or not)...

(I have absolutely no legal training btw)

I presume there are no wandering animals involved too

Heres on for you too... Could you replant the hedgerow where it originally was ...it might be cheaper...more environmentally friendly....more wind resistant..

There should be a place where you can find the exact boundaries set out.

Also, it might be worth youre while asking about boundaries and responsibilities in the farming and forestry forum too.

234

Wheelnut wrote: »

You are satisfied that the former fence was completely on your property and was erected by your family. I can't see how a third party could compel you to re-erect a fence inside your property.

I deliberately use the term "third party" because the neighbour's landlord is not the adjoining property owner to the fence, you own the property outside the fence.

But note that parts of the 2009 Act deal with structures which are not on the exact boundary but near it.

Wheelnut

234 wrote: »

But note that parts of the 2009 Act deal with structures which are not on the exact boundary but near it.

I must plead ignorance on that, can you summarise what you mean.

lazybones32

MyKeyG wrote: »

In the recent weather my parents back garden fence was demolished. My dad and I put it in about 15 years ago. When we put it in the house next door was derelict, it's boundary was a hedgerow so in fact the fence was inside our property. About 6 years ago a contractor bought the premises next door, jazzed it up and landscaped the garden using our fence as the boundary, which made perfect sense, we had no problem with that. The thing is my parents aren't very well off, so they can't replace it straight away. I don't think the neighbours will give them trouble but I'm interested to know just in case. Who's responsibility is it to replace the fence if anybodies? My dad is worried that since it was their fence to begin with they might be responsible.

Legally, no-one is obliged to erect a fence or boundary. That is at the discretion of the houseowners.
Your dad could ask the owner of the house if he/she wants to invest in a quality fence/boundary divider, since both properties will benefit from this.
Your parents are under no pressure whatsoever to get anything up: this changes if they have dogs that run into the neighbours' garden or kids are running back-and-forth (for liability purposes).
Tell your parents to stall the beans. Putting in a fancy fence gives the neighbours a free fence which can improve the appearance of their back-garden, which in turn can increase the rent depending on where they live.

We had a "fence" that fell apart last year and our neighbour was on to me numerous times about repairing it. I bought some posts from the local hardware store (less than E2 each) and a roll of chicken wire. It's a disgrace but he hasn't asked since. I hope to get around to making it proper within the next 10 weeks.

wexandproud

I would consider it far more important to establish where the correct legal boundary and mark it , even with posts and wire, it sounds as if you neighbour has taken some of your garden albeit by genuine mistake . this could lead to big problems down the road if either property is to be sold.
I was in similar situation years ago, even if its only a narrow strip it will cause problems if it is spotted on register cert