Reversing onto a 'main' road -- what's the legal situation?

Iwannahurl

This issue has come up in another current thread, and has possibly been mentioned many times before in this forum.

The RoTR clearly states that "you must not reverse from a minor road onto a major road as it is unsafe to do so."

What is the situation with regard to driveways?

For instance, it is not uncommon for houses to be built along a 'main' road. Is it illegal for people to reverse their car out of the driveway?

If so, how should they go about entering and exiting such driveways? Is it legal and appropriate to construct a house or other building that causes or encourages people to reverse out of it?

Anan1

I asked Ironclaw for evidence that this was illegal in that other thread, and was called a troll for my trouble. I'm still waiting for the link.

Truckermal

It's illegal to reverse out so common sense says reverse in.

Anan1

Truckermal wrote: »

It's illegal to reverse out

People keep saying that, but do you have a link to the relevant legislation?

Truckermal

Anan1 wrote: »

People keep saying that, but do you have a link to the relevant legislation?

No and I am dammed if ye expect me to comb through the ROTR all evening..:)

pippip

I would read the rule as being don't reverse from minor road onto a main road due to the risk of traffic turning onto the minor road, in some cases at speed.

A driveway I wouldnt consider a minor road and thus the absence of traffic turning onto the drive at speed would greatly reduce the risk.

Can't see a problem with it myself once it's clear to preform the manoeuvre.

the_syco

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/si/0294.html

(2) A driver shall not reverse on to a major road from another road, or whenever his vision is such that to reverse would be likely to endanger other traffic or pedestrians.

ABajaninCork

It's also common sense that you reverse in, and drive out. Much safer.

Iwannahurl

So motorists should reverse into these parking spaces?

ironclaw

Anan1 wrote: »

I asked Ironclaw for evidence that this was illegal in that other thread, and was called a troll for my trouble. I'm still waiting for the link.

As the_syco posted here and myself in the other thread, its in black and white here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/si/0294.html#zzsi294y1964a25

And page 54 here:

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-of-the-road-eng.pdf

And its a penalty point offence, listed here:

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf

Obviously, it depends on your definition of "another road" and "whenever his vision is such that to reverse would be likely to endanger other traffic or pedestrians"

I would consider a driveway, normally covered on both sides with pillars, plants or trees to be heavily restricting a drivers vision. And a drive way is, if you want to be really obtuse, a form of roadway.

And then again, it depends on your definition of a 'major road' I would consider any road other than a quiet, obviously residential housing estate road a 'major road'

So I cannot see the ambiguity. Its illegal to reverse from a drive way and would be frankly, in my eyes, stupid to do so. Just take the 10 seconds and reverse into your driveway. Its a hundred times safer when exiting. The problem is most Irish drivers cannot reverse. Just look at our car parks. Everyone drives in head first and looses their minds when they arrive in office blocks where it is policy to reverse into spaces. Most civil offices in Ireland have this policy and I agree with it.

Iwannahurl

So motorists should reverse into these parking spaces?

ironclaw

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So motorists should reverse into these parking spaces?

I would. Firstly because its far safer to do so when leaving, secondly because I feel confident enough in my ability to drive to do so and lastly, its the law (Albeit one that is never, ever going to be enforced)

That said, and I'm not solicitor, if you hit someone or someone hit you reversing out from one of those spaces, I wouldn't say you'd come off in good shape having been conducting an illegal manoeuvre when involved in an accident. Its the exact same as crossing the center line, you would be in the wrong.

Grolschevik

ironclaw wrote: »

As the_syco posted here and myself in the other thread, its in black and white here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/si/0294.html#zzsi294y1964a25

And page 54 here:

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-of-the-road-eng.pdf



And its a penalty point offence, listed here:

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf

Obviously, it depends on your definition of "another road" and "whenever his vision is such that to reverse would be likely to endanger other traffic or pedestrians"

I would consider a driveway, normally covered on both sides with pillars, plants or trees to be heavily restricting a drivers vision. And a drive way is, if you want to be really obtuse, a form of roadway.

And then again, it depends on your definition of a 'major road' I would consider any road other than a quiet, obviously residential housing estate road a 'major road'

So I cannot see the ambiguity. Its illegal to reverse from a drive way and would be frankly, in my eyes, stupid to do so. Just take the 10 seconds and reverse into your driveway. Its a hundred times safer when exiting. The problem is most Irish drivers cannot reverse. Just look at our car parks. Everyone drives in head first and looses their minds when they arrive in office blocks where it is policy to reverse into spaces. Most civil offices in Ireland have this policy and I agree with it.

In all fairness, you repeatedly use the phrases "it depends" and "I consider".

I think there is still an ambiguity about whether a driveway constitutes a road. And none of us here are in a position to answer.

A garda might be able to take a punt on answering it, but ultimately the meaning of legislation is determined by the courts, not on our own subjective reading of it. So in the absence of a definitive court judgement, we'll just keep arguing in circles.

Iwannahurl

ironclaw wrote: »

I would. Firstly because its far safer to do so when leaving, secondly because I feel confident enough in my ability to drive to do so and lastly, its the law (Albeit one that is never, ever going to be enforced)

That said, and I'm not solicitor, if you hit someone or someone hit you reversing out from one of those spaces, I wouldn't say you'd come off in good shape having been conducting an illegal manoeuvre when involved in an accident. Its the exact same as crossing the center line, you would be in the wrong.

Thing is, in the situation I linked to earlier, traffic is often very heavy. Some vehicles have clearly reversed in, but the drivers may have arrived there when traffic was light. When traffic is heavy, as it often is, motorists would have to stop and reverse in over a footpath where there is a lot of pedestrian movement, and where illegal parking is rampant and uncontrolled.

I also know of residential streets where, if the apparent letter of the law is to be followed, motorists would have to reverse on the 'main' road in order to access their driveway.

Is reversing on a 'main' road always better than reversing onto it, in terms of "common sense" and safety?

Victor

I understand these are the current regulations.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a12

Reversing

12. (1) Before reversing, a driver shall ensure that to so reverse would not endanger other traffic or pedestrians.

(2) A driver shall not reverse onto a major road from another road.

(3) A driver shall not reverse from a place adjacent to a public road onto a public road save where it is clear to the driver that to so reverse would not endanger other traffic or pedestrians.

It is generally legal to reverse, but one should try to do it as little as possible, especially where there may be others - especially younger children that you can't see in your mirrors. If you want to reverse, preferably use the aid of a responsible adult who has a proper view.

So, if you are in a driveway, you need to either have a situation like this: https://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Melbourn+Road,+Cork&hl=en&ll=51.881355,-8.527465&spn=0.010994,0.030556&sll=53.275572,-9.063447&sspn=0.001344,0.003819&oq=melbourn+road&t=h&hnear=Melbourn+Rd,+Cork,+County+Cork&z=15&layer=c&cbll=51.881355,-8.527465&panoid=TZ0pcLKovZrlaucDQtPCgw&cbp=12,236.78,,0,22.85 where there are few obstructions to your view or you should use someone to check.

If you are on a major road, find a more minor road to reverse into. Check the road is clear before reversing in.

If you are on a minor road, find an even more minor road to reverse into. Check the road is clear before reversing in.

In part-full car parks, drive-in and drive-out if possible.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So motorists should reverse into these parking spaces?

Are they legally parking spaces?

Anan1

ironclaw wrote: »

As the_syco posted here and myself in the other thread, its in black and white here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/si/0294.html#zzsi294y1964a25

And page 54 here:

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-of-the-road-eng.pdf

And its a penalty point offence, listed here:

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf

Obviously, it depends on your definition of "another road" and "whenever his vision is such that to reverse would be likely to endanger other traffic or pedestrians"

There's nothing in there to support your assertion.

ironclaw wrote: »

I would consider a driveway, normally covered on both sides with pillars, plants or trees to be heavily restricting a drivers vision.

That is not true of all driveways.

ironclaw wrote: »

And a drive way is, if you want to be really obtuse, a form of roadway.

A driveway is a driveway.

ba_barabus

I reverse daily onto a main road and have done all my life. A Garda friend has told me its legal but if I'm in a crash it WILL be my fault.

Tbh I'm not going to stop.

Anan1

ba_barabus wrote: »

I reverse daily onto a main road and have done all my life. A Garda friend has told me its legal but if I'm in a crash it WILL be my fault.

Tbh I'm not going to stop.

You do always need to yield when reversing, but that's a separate issue.

Damien360

ba_barabus wrote: »

I reverse daily onto a main road and have done all my life. A Garda friend has told me its legal but if I'm in a crash it WILL be my fault.

Tbh I'm not going to stop.

But if you just drove out, not reversing, into the path of an oncoming car it would also be your fault.

Not sure why it matters legally whether you drive or reverse out. For your own safety driving out would be better of course.

ba_barabus

Anan1 wrote: »

You do always need to yield when reversing, but that's a separate issue.

Obviously.

I'm careful about it and only do it when clear and I always keep on the verge.

TheChizler

Victor's post sums it up perfectly.

To those saying a driveway is a road, we're talking about legal terms. The legal term 'road' is defined at the start of all the SIs being linked to.

ted1

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So motorists should reverse into these parking spaces?

I would, if for some reason I couldn't I would then reverse and onto the path and filter onto the road nose first so as to not reverse onto the road

rwg

TheChizler wrote: »

Victor's post sums it up perfectly.

To those saying a driveway is a road, we're talking about legal terms. The legal term 'road' is defined at the start of all the SIs being linked to.

Exactly - in legal terms the wording is important. This is probably better off queried in the legal forum - and in there I'm sure they would not in any way consider a driveway as a "road", or consider reversing out of a driveway as an obstruction of vision unless there was clear proof of such obstacles.

copacetic

ironclaw wrote: »

As the_syco posted here and myself in the other thread, its in black and white here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/si/0294.html#zzsi294y1964a25

And page 54 here:

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-of-the-road-eng.pdf

And its a penalty point offence, listed here:

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf

Obviously, it depends on your definition of "another road" and "whenever his vision is such that to reverse would be likely to endanger other traffic or pedestrians"

I would consider a driveway, normally covered on both sides with pillars, plants or trees to be heavily restricting a drivers vision. And a drive way is, if you want to be really obtuse, a form of roadway.

And then again, it depends on your definition of a 'major road' I would consider any road other than a quiet, obviously residential housing estate road a 'major road'

So I cannot see the ambiguity. Its illegal to reverse from a drive way and would be frankly, in my eyes, stupid to do so. Just take the 10 seconds and reverse into your driveway. Its a hundred times safer when exiting. The problem is most Irish drivers cannot reverse. Just look at our car parks. Everyone drives in head first and looses their minds when they arrive in office blocks where it is policy to reverse into spaces. Most civil offices in Ireland have this policy and I agree with it.

Jebus that is some pile of rubbish post, you basically proved that you were wrong.

Then posted ambiguous personal opinion to imply you hadn't proved that. (any road could be considered major, you think a driveway is a road, there ya go your honour qed), then said you can't see the ambiguity.

The mind boggles.

Iwannahurl

Victor wrote: »

So, if you are in a driveway, you need to either have a situation like this: https://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Melbourn+Road,+Cork&hl=en&ll=51.881355,-8.527465&spn=0.010994,0.030556&sll=53.275572,-9.063447&sspn=0.001344,0.003819&oq=melbourn+road&t=h&hnear=Melbourn+Rd,+Cork,+County+Cork&z=15&layer=c&cbll=51.881355,-8.527465&panoid=TZ0pcLKovZrlaucDQtPCgw&cbp=12,236.78,,0,22.85 where there are few obstructions to your view or you should use someone to check.


...

Are they legally parking spaces?

Those driveway exits in Cork allow motorists to check for traffic before entering the carriageway, which is useful. StreetView makes it clear that some people drive in and reverse out, while others (50%?) do it vicky verky.

"Planners" seemingly allow houses and commercial premises to be constructed in such a way that motorists are invited or forced to reverse onto a 'main' road. Whether that's legal or not, and coordinated with the relevant legislation, I cannot say.

I suspect road users in Ireland often have to use "common sense" in a manner that is not always strictly within the letter of the law.

Victor

In the context of those regulations, a driveway (or garage, farm road, etc.) is a "place adjacent to a public road" but a driveway still has a lot of the features of a road.

keithclancy

Who cares, just reverse out if its safe to do so.

Even if it was technically legal or illegal to reverse onto a main road (whats a main road in Ireland is questionable in a lot of cases imo)

If you have an accident, it doesn't matter, you are in the wrong as you are meant to take care when reversing.

If you don't have an accident ninja garda do not jump out of the bushes and write you a ticket.

Just use your common sense.

NuckingFacker

No idea re the OP, but I'd like to nominate the tool in the Blue econobox saloon who reversed back up the Finglas N bound exit of the M50 (hazards on, hah), in pelting rain, this evening, waited on the edge of the exit (hazards on, hah)then pulled out into motorway traffic like the massive gee-bag that they deffo are, for "Gobshyte of the year". The prize is a huge plastic dildo mounted on a hard-wood base. I'd love to deliver it in person. I was the lad you reversed towards as I came down the exit in the pelting rain. You can thank Vredestein for you not winning the "me hitting you at 80kph" award..


If you were not a total tool of the highest order, the fact that there was a re-entry ramp back onto the self same M50 about 50m in front of your "got my licence in a crisp packet" a55 might have been blindingly obvious. But I digress..,

Iwannahurl

keithclancy wrote: »

Who cares, just reverse out if its safe to do so.

Even if it was technically legal or illegal to reverse onto a main road (whats a main road in Ireland is questionable in a lot of cases imo)

If you have an accident, it doesn't matter, you are in the wrong as you are meant to take care when reversing.

If you don't have an accident ninja garda do not jump out of the bushes and write you a ticket.

Just use your common sense.

Is that the Irish way of doing business, or is it pretty much the same throughout the EU?

My problem with that approach is that it places all the responsibility on the individual road user. It's all fun and games (sure it'll do and isn't it grand?) until someone loses an eye.

A similar situation applies with regard to provision for cyclists, eg one-way streets. The Irish way seems to be to let people fend for themselves, and if something goes wrong then, if necessary, find a way to blame the victim. Presumably such an approach is easier than organising things properly in the first place.

RandomAccess

And beware of polo players when you are preparing to reverse in.

The jury was told how Mr Parker would regularly reverse his Land Rover into his driveway via a dropped kerb for insurance purposes.

http://www.bedfordshire-news.co.uk/News/Bedford-Girls-School-bursar-guilty-after-ramming-horse-box-into-elderly-man-20130903181831.htm

keithclancy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Is that the Irish way of doing business, or is it pretty much the same throughout the EU?

My problem with that approach is that it places all the responsibility on the individual road user. It's all fun and games (sure it'll do and isn't it grand?) until someone loses an eye.

A similar situation applies with regard to provision for cyclists, eg one-way streets. The Irish way seems to be to let people fend for themselves, and if something goes wrong then, if necessary, find a way to blame the victim. Presumably such an approach is easier than organising things properly in the first place.

The answer is simple, if you are reversing and someone hits you as a result you are in the wrong as you didn't take care.

What exactly are you supposed to do if you drive into a driveway and theres not enough space to turn around and only then you realise it's a main road.

Call the car lifting people to come and turn your car around ?

ABajaninCork

These are the fellas you need then!

Pinch Flat

Rotr advise you "must not reverse from a minor road onto a major road as it is unsafe to do". Looks like it's illegal as well. If in doubt, call a solicitor who will be delighted to charge you a few hundred quid per hour charged in 15 minute intervals.

A driveway would have the same status of a private road - provided you have the freehold title. I would imagine the road outside your driveway would be considered a "major road", so onto a L, R or N road, it's going to have a higher status than your own driveway.

My own driveway (suburban estate) I prefer to reverse into - it gives me clear view when setting off. One side is bounded by a neighbours wall which is tricky when reversing out.

Would be interesting to see if there's any legal precedent out there - if I'm reversing out and hit someone, I would be found at fault insurance wise, but would I be prosecuted? Can't answer that

Victor

ba_barabus wrote: »

I reverse daily onto a main road and have done all my life. A Garda friend has told me its legal but if I'm in a crash it WILL be my fault.

It is only legal if "it is clear to the driver that to so reverse would not endanger other traffic or pedestrians".

Stheno

I had a minor (damage €170 quid total in claims) accident a couple of years ago and when going through the insurance assessment process had an assessor out to my house which is on a main road.

Our driveway is shared with another house in the the front 1/3 of the driveway is an open area then we park in our seperate driveways (think of a triangular entrance from the street when then branches into two.

Anyway the assessor was asking how we got onto the main road (chit chat) and when advised we sometimes reversed, told me that in any accident situation a. it would be considered an illegal move, and b. you are 100% liable)

I'd fun telling the OH as I like to drive in and park by reversing while he likes to reverse out

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Since when is my driveway a minor road?

Victor

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Since when is my driveway a minor road?

Well, it isn't a duck, is it?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Victor wrote: »

Well, it isn't a duck, is it?

:rolleyes:
Is it a road? What is its road name so. L1000000?

Anan1

If hot air (and accusations of trolling) made things illegal then reversing out of your driveway surely would be, but I'm still not seeing any kind of a link to relevant legislation.

Victor

Anan1 wrote: »

If hot air (and accusations of trolling) made things illegal then reversing out of your driveway surely would be, but I'm still not seeing any kind of a link to relevant legislation.

Did you read my link to the legislation?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Victor wrote: »

Did you read my link to the legislation?

The one that was as clear as mud?
And did not state it was illegal, or clarify either way tbh.

Anan1

Victor wrote: »

Did you read my link to the legislation?

?? You admitted that it was legal, ie that it was not prohibited by any legislation. You're never allowed reverse if to do so would endanger other traffic or pedestrians.

Storminnormin

My tuppence worth is that it is illegal to I) reverse onto a road from either a minor road or a driveway, except in the case of a driveway when it is safe to do so - which means you have to a) check thoroughly or get assistance from a adult from outside the vehicle before doing so and b) also be capable of this reversing maneuver, which for those who have obtained their driving licence in Ireland probably means not that many and II) Although one wishes to avoid financial fines and/or imprisonment etc. and is therefore interested in the legality of traffic habits and which is instrumental in determining ones innocence or guilt in a court, I would say that the safety element is of paramount importance when trying to interpret RSA or Dept. of Transport guidelines/rules when on public roads - especially taking into consideration the most vulnerable of road users i.e. pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists etc. - it would be tempting faith to reverse onto a public road when your vision is impaired and/or you do not possess the skills to do this and III) Whilst a driveway etc. may look like a "road" it is NOT a Public road so certain rules come into operation when entering said Public road from a private road/driveway/parking space etc. and you should also apply the precautions you normally take when "joining traffic" when legally stopped on the side of a road, all of which is something you would have learnt when you took your theory and driving lessons before sitting a test and hopefully passing it (a minority of motorists I guess) IV) And as always use common sense - because some may be of the opinion that roads are solely for cars it does not mean they have the right to reverse over pavements onto a public road without carefully checking out for playing children, pedestrians, cyclists etc., thereby risking inflicting lifelong injuries or fatalities, which to my surprise some motorists on Facebook recently suggested it was both legal and fair-play to reverse over a child when trying to get onto a road - the logic used was that roads are only for cars, that kids do not belong there and anyway their parents should have been looking after them (I kid you not).

biko

Old thread lock. Feel free to start a new thread if you have a question.