Club keeps bar credit on GUI card

waterfordal

I was just wondering if the following is normal practice or - as I suspect - daylight robbery. As part of membership in my club I have to put €100 on my card to use I the bar/restaurant. Went to use it the other day - I have about €60 credit left - and was told that any money left on the cards by December 1st was automatically taken back by the club.

I am going to ring the club office soon to hear what they have to say but just wanted to see if people think this is normal or acceptable?

The Diddakoi

Was discussing this with a friend a couple of days ago.
She asked for her credit back (golf club in Louth), but was told it is not possible, so she went and got the equivalent value in bottles of wine from them to bring home. Not many bottles I might add...

Arsenium

It usually has to be used by the end of the year I think or then it disappears.

GreeBo

Normal practice OP.
it's part of your sub, you don't get your sub back if you didn't play any golf that year, same with this.

Thousands are left on cards each year, the bar/restaurant needs this money to survive, that's why it's on your card in the first place

Stock up on some bottles

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

Normal practice OP.
it's part of your sub, you don't get your sub back if you didn't play any golf that year, same with this.

Thousands are left on cards each year, the bar/restaurant needs this money to survive, that's why it's on your card in the first place

Stock up on some bottles

He can't, credit is gone from his card. Or do you mean next year?

Rikand

next year I'd say.

Our club is the same, you have to use it by the end of the business year.

the restaurant actually does quite well in september/october with floods of people coming in to spend whats left on their cards

cgh

This can be a thorny issue in most clubs. I know my €100 was normally gone by the end of Feb. so was always topping it up and never had the problem with it. I know plenty of people who have had this happen to them and then claim they didnt know that they had to use it by end of year.
Seems to me far too many folk play golf and go home, dont even bother going into the clubhouse.
so who's really at fault here, the club or the members themselves?

bustercherry

I think bar levies are disgusting and some clubs have lost the run of themselves with them; a hundred euros I can just about justify. If the bar/restaurant cannot survive without it, then it should be shut. Suppose it's similar to NAMA in a way

waterfordal

denisoc16 wrote: »

He can't, credit is gone from his card. Or do you mean next year?

Yeah, credit is gone now so I can't get anything apparently. The argument about not spending enough in your club doesn't hold up in my opinion - my membership is costing €1,100 a year, they're getting enough off me without robbing even more.

Russman

I'll try to find the story, but I thought there was a case maybe 3 or 4 years ago where it was found, or decided, that clubs couldn't keep it. Can't remember the exact details of it.

I'm pretty sure that when we had a bar levy up to 2 or 3 years ago, the credit stayed on the card if it was unused at year end, which hadn't always been the case in the early years of having a levy (it only came in maybe 8 or 10 years previous).

Agree with you Buster, bar levies IMO are wrong.

GreeBo

waterfordal wrote: »

Yeah, credit is gone now so I can't get anything apparently. The argument about not spending enough in your club doesn't hold up in my opinion - my membership is costing €1,100 a year, they're getting enough off me without robbing even more.

I assumed you meant Dec 31st.
If thats the case then next year spend it before the 1st!

Doesn't the 1,100 include the bar credit?
In any case, while it might be a lot to you, its not to the club. They are not "robbing" you. They are trying to survive.

Carpo86

The whole idea of this type of arrangement is to try and ensure there is a bit of life in the clubhouse- something that many members value a lot. It's also normal for the clubs to put a date limit on its use for administrative purposes. The only grounds of complaint you would really have is fi they somehow concealed the December 1st deadline from you.

bustercherry

Carpo86 wrote: »

The whole idea of this type of arrangement is to try and ensure there is a bit of life in the clubhouse- something that many members value a lot. It's also normal for the clubs to put a date limit on its use for administrative purposes. The only grounds of complaint you would really have is fi they somehow concealed the December 1st deadline from you.

If they valued it, then they would use the clubhouse irrespective of the levy.

GreeBo

bustercherry wrote: »

If they valued it, then they would use the clubhouse irrespective of the levy.

Thats a nice thought alright.
But reality is different.

If they value their club still being in existence they will use the levy and support it.

waterfordal

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats a nice thought alright.
But reality is different.

If they value their club still being in existence they will use the levy and support it.

Again, I just don't see how this argument holds up. I do support the club - i pay them €1,100 a year. By your logic, you could argue that we should just donate any extra cash we have to the club to "support" them.

Also, I do use the bar and restaurant. It just worked out this year that I didn't get in there as much as I would have liked.

bustercherry

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats a nice thought alright.
But reality is different.

If they value their club still being in existence they will use the levy and support it.

A club is more than a bar/restaurant.

GreeBo

waterfordal wrote: »

Again, I just don't see how this argument holds up. I do support the club - i pay them €1,100 a year. By your logic, you could argue that we should just donate any extra cash we have to the club to "support" them.

Also, I do use the bar and restaurant. It just worked out this year that I didn't get in there as much as I would have liked.

Again, doesnt that 1,100 include the bar levy?

In any case, would you prefer if they just upped the sub to 1,350?
Clearly your 1,100 isnt enough to keep the club running.

They are trying to encourage people to support the club AND are giving people something for their money, its supposed to be a win-win situation.

/edit
And paying your sub isnt "supporting" you club. You get to play golf for that. Spending your money in the club is supporting your club.

Arguing that I'm giving them 1,100, thats loads is the equivalent of people complaining about the health service, "sure dont I pay my taxes"
IMO its an immature view of how the world works.

Do you know what your clubs finances look like? Do you know where the money goes? Do you know what retainer the caterer is on, what revenue they were told they can expect yearly?

GreeBo

bustercherry wrote: »

A club is more than a bar/restaurant.

Dont support it and the caterer leaves.
Then you dont get societies and opens.
Then members leave because there is no social life in the club.
Then your club closes.

Its an eco-system and you cant just ignore a large chunk of it.

Ronney

In fairness anyone who doesn't spend €100 deserves to loose it.

Between pints, coffee, sambos and soup mine is usually spent by march

thewobbler

Ronney wrote: »

In fairness anyone who doesn't spend €100 deserves to loose it.

Between pints, coffee, sambos and soup mine is usually spent by march

Circumstances differ.

Try having 3 young kids at home, and you honestly just don't have that extra hour a week involved in spending €x socially. Spending less than 5 hours away is the key to getting out to golf.

And in the current climate, golf clubs can ill afford to frustrate or annoy members who are currently in this bracket, but one day will move on from it and bedrock a club's social activity.

- - -

Personally I'm no fan of levies to prop up a failing part of the operation. While it's a wonderful thing to have the option to have a drink or a meal after a round of golf, this is Ireland in 2013, and habits have changed. There are pubs closing every week of the year, and those that are left are running on reduced hours. This is not going to abate, and golf clubs cannot expect to remain immune from it.

There seems to be a romantic notion with some people on this forum that everyone will enjoy and become active in the social aspect of their golf club, if only they can be coerced into giving it a go.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Ireland has changed, and slowly but surely it is dawning on every football club, rugby club and social club in the country that the bar which used to prop up their income, has become a financial and operational noose around their necks. The right step for these clubs, and many golf clubs, will be to draw it to a close.

Russman

Ronney wrote: »

In fairness anyone who doesn't spend €100 deserves to loose it.

Between pints, coffee, sambos and soup mine is usually spent by march

Agree, which is why I'm against a bar levy. Anyone who uses the bar at all will easily spend more than €100 over the course of the year. Its the element of compulsion I disagree with, €100 isn't going to be enough to make someone use the facilities or not, but they still have to find an extra €100 in January when the sub is due.

Sandwlch

Levies are just sleight of hand to pretend/miss-sell subs as being lower than the really are.

And a poor one at that, in that they force members to pay even more than is necessary to fund the service. And obliges those who dont want to use such a service to subsidise those who do.
Not sure what profit clubs make on the bar/restaurant but say its 20-30-40%. Then instead of levying €100 making some people use a service they dont really want, they should acknowledge the fact and add €30 or whatever the equivalent margin is to the sub. Same income to anchor the bar service (yes its necessary, societies and many members expect it to be available). So same income guaranteed to the service provider. And let those who want to use the service pay for what they want from it after that. Much fairer and open.

Arsenium

Is it not clearly explained to the member how the annual fee is made up? Club, bar levy and gui. I imagine it is and if not then you have an issue. Also is it not clearly explained that the credit expires on a particular date? Again I imagine it is . It's not like you are paying your annual sub and they are then taking an extra hundred from you.

I think Dec 1st is a strange date for it to expire and if it was Dec 31st you'd have a nice meal and a few pints over the next week or so and put it down to experience. In answer to the original question I don't think it's daylight robbery. You knew you were paying it and you knew you had to use it. Pain in the ass to lose it for sure. I've got about 7 euros left on mine and am considering driving over just to use it :-))

Carpo86

I think if the club is a members' owned operation then a bar levy is perfectly legitimate. In such a case, the club has taken a collective decision that its in its best interests to ensure everybody makes use of the '19th hole', hopefully generating a decent atmosphere in the process.

If you are of the opinion that the levy makes the total subscription fee too expensive for your tastes, that's fair enough and there are plenty of alternative (and cheaper) options out there at the moment.

At the same time, if the only reason you didn't spend it was a genuine mistake (with you thinking you had another month to use it) the club would be a bit mad to not credit your card with the €60 with the understanding that you are now aware of the December 1st deadline for future years.

Keano

Our club operates the same way but we have until the 31st of December to use it.

To the those of you who have kids, why not bring the whole family out a few times during the year or even just you and the wife? It'll not take long to get rid of it.

I don't think it's robbery or anything sinister.

the greatest game

Our club you can spend it in the golf shop also, luckily we have a good golf shop with good pricing.

But I agree, I think it is incorrect to have a deadline, and you should be cut some slack... , the overall concept of this levy is wrong imo,
subs are expensive enough, if the bar is not viable..then tough , close it.

Mr. Larson

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Our club operates the same way but we have until the 31st of December to use it.

To the those of you who have kids, why not bring the whole family out a few times during the year or even just you and the wife? It'll not take long to get rid of it.

I don't think it's robbery or anything sinister.

Exactly. Anyone who is too whipped to grab a coffee or the odd pint after a round over the course of the year just bring your wife and kids there once or twice for a treat. God bunch of scabs half of yas Provided everyone is made aware of it there should be no gripe. This race to the bottom drives me mad. My club has one and I can assure you they don't exactly make a killing on it. In fact they do need all the help they can get to survive. Bar and Catering are crucial to survival of my club. I have no problem with that.

Beaulieu

waterfordal wrote: »

Again, I just don't see how this argument holds up. I do support the club - i pay them €1,100 a year. By your logic, you could argue that we should just donate any extra cash we have to the club to "support" them.

Also, I do use the bar and restaurant. It just worked out this year that I didn't get in there as much as I would have liked.

I can see your point Al but if everyone adopted that point of view you wouldnt have a golf club after a while...it needs your support (and Im not just talking about the sub)

coddlesangers

I'm an overseas member of a dublin club, i get charged the bar levy. It means at least once a year, when i'm back in dublin, i get to take a few buddies up for a beer and a steak sandwich. I don't object to it, as i appreciate the service of a bar/restaurant is separate to that of golf, but an essential part (in my mind) of a member owned golf club. The cash it generates just about ensures the continued operation of our facility, without it, it would be gone.

Brodick

A levy of €100 is less than a cup of coffee a week for goodness sake or taking the family out once a year!

Having catering facilities is critical to supporting the social aspect of a club.

While I don't actually like paying the levy it is very convenient for the remaining 12 months you have to use it.

charlieIRL

I've never used mine and always given it back to the club, it was never much but if it helped then so be it.

Always paid for my food / drinks after a round.

golfwallah

Hate to be a damp squib on this issue, but our club got a bill from the Revenue Commissioners a few years ago for VAT on the unspent bar levy.

The reasoning behind it was that this unspent money was intended to be spent in the bar and bar sales are subject to VAT.

The committee was in dispute with Revenue over this for a few years, even going to the appeal stage, which we finally lost.

We had the option of going further through the courts but were advised against it based on the risk of incurring additional costs and still ending up having to pay.

Cost us many thousands of Euro to settle, which we could little afford at the time. As a result, committee recommended abolishing the bar levy, which was carried at an AGM shortly after settling with Revenue. This situation has remained ever since, with no noticeable effect on membership or substantial demands for its re-introduction.

Just a note of caution - clubs should check out their VAT positions in this regard, as they could find themselves carrying a liability they know nothing about.

kelbal

The bar and restaurant levies are separate in my place - €75 must be spent in each.
I use up the restaurant money no bother, but I have a 24km drive to my club and usually play around 8am, so I'm never in a position to have a pint there.
I understand the need to support the restaurant, but in terms of drink driving and other alcohol related issues that members may have, the bar levy doesn't sit too well with me

mjsc1970

Restaurant levy is 200.00 in our club, i'd say very few leave much behind at the year end, which happened to be september this year.
Hate having to pay it every year, but, 3 visits with the family usually clears it. If i didn't have to pay it i wouldn't be that pushed to use the restaurant otherwise.
Like other posters here don't have much spare time after a round of golf but always just enough to have a quick cuppa coffee with the lads after. If most people could just stay back and have 1 drink, whatever that is, that'd surely keep the bar ticking over a little bit and ye usually get to hear some incredibly sh*te talk too for all its worth. Then i can rush home to the wife and kids after.

BoardsMember

Its 650 in ours and I usually struggle to get through it. I would prefer to see the club address this loss making enterprise but it allows us win lots of outings into the club so it is probably worth it.