Accidental landlord/PRTB advice

Goldfish52

I'll try to keep this brief.
Owner of house in Dublin. Had to move to London for employment and couldn't sell house. Rented it. Had tenancy agreement but never got around to registering the deposit.

Subsequently had complaint from management company of property that a "massage" business was being run from the house. They had advertised on gumtree, although house number not given. Involved the gardaí who were not particularly interested but suggested getting them to move out. Asked tenants to leave. After they left, discovered some damage done to house and not fixed- nails in walls/doors etc. Had to have place completely redecorated again (freshly done when they moved in) and decorater had to do some sort of re-sealing of walls to paint over stains where they had presumably greasy mattresses up against the walls. Also left overflowing ashtrays etc in the house.

After they moved out, the house was empty for a month while being redecorated and also because we did not want new tenants getting any hassle due to previous business. Despite this, the new tenants have had people knocking on the door looking for the old tenant and a "massage". The redecoration required cost well in excess of the deposit.

We felt that we had enough grounds for with holding the deposit (operating a business in breach of tenancy agreement, state of decor when they left etc) They have now involved the PRTB to recover their deposit and they have contacted me for telephone mediation.

I accept we were wrong not to register the deposit and have done so for the subsequent tenancy. I'd much rather not be a landlord but don't reallly have a choice other than defaulting on the mortgage.

But do we have any grounds to keep the deposit here? Can we retrospectively register the tenancy? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

listermint

Goldfish52 wrote: »

I'll try to keep this brief.
Owner of house in Dublin. Had to move to London for employment and couldn't sell house. Rented it. Had tenancy agreement but never got around to registering the deposit.

Subsequently had complaint from management company of property that a "massage" business was being run from the house. They had advertised on gumtree, although house number not given. Involved the gardaí who were not particularly interested but suggested getting them to move out. Asked tenants to leave. After they left, discovered some damage done to house and not fixed- nails in walls/doors etc. Had to have place completely redecorated again (freshly done when they moved in) and decorater had to do some sort of re-sealing of walls to paint over stains where they had presumably greasy mattresses up against the walls. Also left overflowing ashtrays etc in the house.

After they moved out, the house was empty for a month while being redecorated and also because we did not want new tenants getting any hassle due to previous business. Despite this, the new tenants have had people knocking on the door looking for the old tenant and a "massage". The redecoration required cost well in excess of the deposit.

We felt that we had enough grounds for with holding the deposit (operating a business in breach of tenancy agreement, state of decor when they left etc) They have now involved the PRTB to recover their deposit and they have contacted me for telephone mediation.

I accept we were wrong not to register the deposit and have done so for the subsequent tenancy. I'd much rather not be a landlord but don't reallly have a choice other than defaulting on the mortgage.

But do we have any grounds to keep the deposit here? Can we retrospectively register the tenancy? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Deal in facts with the PRTB, im sure they will make a fair decision.

djimi

The deposit cannot be withheld on some vague notion of what you think you might be owed. If you wish to withhold the deposit for any reason then you need to be able to provide detailed breakdown to account for amount deducted and be able to provide receipts/invoices to backup the deductions. You cannot deduct for your own time. You also cannot deduct for the vacant month if you were the one who terminated the tenancy.

If the tenant takes the case to the PRTB then you are going to have to be prepared to provide evidence to back up your withholding of the deposit.

jersman

You can't keep the deposit based on redecoration costs. Most of what you are saying there would fall under normal wear and tear. Having dealt with the PRTB before prepare for a 3 year + saga if neither party can come to an agreement. Also prepare for an added cost of €200+ that you will be liable for if the PRTB rule against you.

djimi

jersman wrote: »

You can't keep the deposit based on redecoration costs. Most of what you are saying there would fall under normal wear and tear. Having dealt with the PRTB before prepare for a 3 year + saga if neither party can come to an agreement. Also prepare for an added cost of €200+ that you will be liable for if the PRTB rule against you.

Very little (if any) of what has been described would fall under normal wear and tear to be fair.

The OP sounds like they would have a case for claiming the deductions; they just need to get their ducks in a row for when the case comes to be heard. There is no such things as "keeping the deposit"; everything is considered to be a deduction (even if it amounts to more than the deposit is worth) and each deduction must be accounted for.

jersman

A few nails in walls and a few stains hardly amounts to what is probably close to a €1000 deposit. A small bit of filler and a lick of paint seems like it would sort these problems, adding up to about €50. The PRTB don't take kindly to landlords using the deposit of tenants to completely redecorate. A rented place will almost always need a lick of paint and a few other small jobs done when tenants move out but these are part of the costs of been a landlord. Too many landlords think they can hold on to deposits to pay for these redecoration costs.

djimi wrote: »

Very little (if any) of what has been described would fall under normal wear and tear to be fair.

The OP sounds like they would have a case for claiming the deductions; they just need to get their ducks in a row for when the case comes to be heard. There is no such things as "keeping the deposit"; everything is considered to be a deduction (even if it amounts to more than the deposit is worth) and each deduction must be accounted for.

Goldfish52

Thanks for the replies so far.

I fully accept Just to clarify, the tenants were in the property for about 10 months and the property needed a complete overhaul after they left. It was not a £50 lick of paint, it cost me £1500. It had been freshly decorated before they moved in and we had also gotten new blinds and put in an extra bed into one of the bedrooms at their request. We have an invoice for the redecoration after they moved out and also pictures of the walls etc before redecorating.

Can any body clarify regarding the fact that they had not cleaned the property before they left? Also regarding the fact that they had been running a business from the property? The "business" is actually my biggest problem as our current tenants were getting hassle up until fairly recently. Will these facts count for anything with the PRTB?

Thanks again.

Goldfish52

Also, should we retrospectively register the tenancy? Is this even possible at this point?

Thomas D

Goldfish52 wrote: »

Also, should we retrospectively register the tenancy? Is this even possible at this point?

Yes but you will pay a fine. Have you registered with revenue?

djimi

Yes, register the tenancy and pay and late registration fines etc. If they are taking a case against you then it will look bad if youre not registered.

Running the business etc is relevant in terms of the termination of the tenancy, but if they are not disputing that then I dont see it coming into it. If the deposit retention is being disputed then just make sure that you have all of your evidence and you should be fine. It sounds like you have a good case and you have done the necessary to cover yourself.

Goldfish52

Yes I'm registered with the tenancy board and paid non residential property tax etc. Thanks for the advice. I'll register the deposit now.

beauf

jersman wrote: »

.... Too many landlords think they can hold on to deposits to pay for these redecoration costs.

True.

But if its beyond normal wear and tear (Normal for a rental not your own gaff) then the LL can claim costs. Of course not every ones idea of normal wear and tear is the same. The photos will be key here. Before and after etc.

beauf

Goldfish52 wrote: »

....Can any body clarify regarding the fact that they had not cleaned the property before they left? ...

Depends on how bad is the answer.

Also (I'm open to correction) you can't clean it yourself, you'd have to get cleaners in.

gaius c

Goldfish52 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies so far.

I fully accept Just to clarify, the tenants were in the property for about 10 months and the property needed a complete overhaul after they left. It was not a £50 lick of paint, it cost me £1500. It had been freshly decorated before they moved in and we had also gotten new blinds and put in an extra bed into one of the bedrooms at their request. We have an invoice for the redecoration after they moved out and also pictures of the walls etc before redecorating.

Keep those receipts.
Think you'll have to take the PRTB fine for late registration on the chin but the receipts should cover you re deposit retention.

Can any body clarify regarding the fact that they had not cleaned the property before they left? Also regarding the fact that they had been running a business from the property? The "business" is actually my biggest problem as our current tenants were getting hassle up until fairly recently. Will these facts count for anything with the PRTB?

Thanks again.

Think you need proper legal advice on this one but my feeling is that the PRTB will probably only concentrate on the deposit end of things. If you are found to have grounds to retain their deposit in full, that'll be the end of their involvement. You'd probably need to take a separate case against them for damages due to their actions.

Goldfish52

Thanks again for all the advice. It has been very helpful. I see that there are 2 issues now:

1. Termination of the tenancy and the grounds to do this (not in dispute) I don't think we would pursue another case as I'd really rather just put it all behind us to be honest.

2. The state the property was left in and the retention of the deposit. We have some pictures of the dirt and damage, as well as a receipt for the cost of the redecoration and pictures of the property from when it was advertised prior to them moving in.

Hopefully this will be enough to justify retention of most of the deposit. (I've realised going through the records that we did return E200 in fact)

Goldfish52

Oh, and we have registered the tenancy with the PRTB. I don't mind taking the hit for the fine- it's fair enough.

professore

Do you really want to keep a deposit on someone running a massage business? I wouldn't be keen on doing that ... might have very bad consequences .... think Fran with plastic bag ... I'm not joking btw.

djimi

beauf wrote: »

Depends on how bad is the answer.

Also (I'm open to correction) you can't clean it yourself, you'd have to get cleaners in.

You can clean the place to your hearts content; you just cant deduct from the deposit for your own time.

Goldfish52

I didn't do the cleaning as I'm overseas. However my nominated agents (parents) did it. Don't know whether I can claim for their time? They are not officially set up as an agency company so I'm guessing no. It took my parents 4 days to clean the house, by the way and they are no slackers!

Also, they were clearly smoking in the property. It was specified in the tenancy agreement that this was not allowed and was another reason why it needed to be repainted. Obviously, it's difficult to give evidence of a smell! But we have pics of an overflowing ashtray which they left. (Unfortunately a close up rather than in the room)

In any case, the cost of the redecoration is far in excess of the amount of the deposit retained, so I'm hoping this will be enough?

Professore, I take your point, and to be honest I have thought that too, but they have pursued through legal avenues so I'm hoping it will be ok. I really can't afford to give it back having spent a fortune getting it sorted out again after them!

djimi

Goldfish52 wrote: »

In any case, the cost of the redecoration is far in excess of the amount of the deposit retained, so I'm hoping this will be enough?

Provided you have the paperwork to back up the deduction then yes, you should be absolutely fine. You seem to have the evidence that you need.

beauf

djimi wrote: »

You can clean the place to your hearts content; you just cant deduct from the deposit for your own time.

Ah thats it. I couldn't remember exactly.

Goldfish52

Can I deduct for my agent's time?

djimi

Goldfish52 wrote: »

Can I deduct for my agent's time?

That Im not sure of. My gut feeling says no, but it would be worth checking that out with Threshold/PRTB and see what they reckon.

Goldfish52

Will do. Thank you!

Citizenpain

djimi wrote: »

That Im not sure of. My gut feeling says no, but it would be worth checking that out with Threshold/PRTB and see what they reckon.

If your agent gives you an invoise (declares it for tax etc ) then i would say yes..

If you are not paying them ; then no

mdebets

I would agree with the previous posters in that I think you have a good case for keeping the deposit, if you have documented everything properly.
I see however a potential stumbling block. You don't mention if you had a proper handover of the house, but said that you detected the damage after they moved out.
Did you have a formal handover with the tenant and what does the protocol state, if you had one? When did you detect the damage and made the photos of the house.
If the photos date from some time after they moved out and you didn't detect the damage at the handover, you might have a hard time to proof that the damage was done during the time the tenant lived there and not in the time it was under your control.

Goldfish52

There was no formal check out with the tenant, unfortunately. Agents (Parents) met tenants after they moved out and gave back E200 in cash after they had inspected and seen all the damage and realised that it would need to be redecorated. It was a goodwill gesture. ( Ha!) The tenant has signed a receipt for the return of that amount.

The photos were taken within a week of the tenants moving out (presume date on the digital photo file will prove this?). The decorators invoice is also dated about 3 or 4 weeks after they moved out.

Such a minefield.

The_Conductor

jersman wrote: »

You can't keep the deposit based on redecoration costs. Most of what you are saying there would fall under normal wear and tear. Having dealt with the PRTB before prepare for a 3 year + saga if neither party can come to an agreement. Also prepare for an added cost of €200+ that you will be liable for if the PRTB rule against you.

You have got to be kidding?

Its well worth the landlord's while to take however long it takes, it fight this case. Unfortunately he was abroad and didn't know there was a brothel being run from his property. That business will have knock-on effects on future tenants and the rentability of his property- which is not his fault. In addition- there was the £1500 of damage. It most certainly does sound like it was no-way a lick of paint job to return it to rentable condition.

OP- no, you can't charge for your parents time in cleaning up the dwelling. If you had used professional cleaners- and were properly billed- this would be allowable (regardless of what it came to)- but when you do it yourself, or get your parents or whatever- other than professionals, it is not chargeable. This is why most landlords use professional cleaning companies.

Leaving the property vacant for a month- before retenanting it- is not going to cut it- any future tenants are going to have residual issues from the brothel, for quite some time to come.

lollsangel

A few years back we were looking for a new house to rent. 2 young kids, brutually bad landlord and dampness. A woman we had rented from had a house going for rent, we knew the house and the woman so we said we'd take it. She rang us apologising as the house was left in such a state that it eouldnt be availible. They put in sometime like burnt engine oil into the oil tank, whole system had to drained and cleaned. I
offered to the cleaning in lieu of the first week rent, and that the things I replaced as damaged would be paid as well. They contacted prtb as we withheld their desposit, I was asked for a statement of what I encountered, my time was taken into account but they essentially lost their case and all their desposit.

Goldfish52

The_Conductor, thanks. I won't make the same mistakes again. Professional cleaners in future for sure.

That's encouraging Lollsangel, thank you!