Ireland 15 years behind - Ruud Dokter

civis_liberalis

FAI high performance director Ruud Dokter has warned that it could take up to 15 years for the structures of the game in Ireland to be overhauled.

Since the Dutchman assumed control on August 1 of the biggest football position in the FAI outside of the senior manager's, he has surveyed the landscape to ascertain what's required to bring Irish grassroots football into the modern era.

Stressing that his vision to improve the structures and standards of the game requires unity from traditionally entrenched factions across the football community -- as well as funding -- Dokter's timeframe for results extends far beyond the lifetime of his first contract.

"There is no common pathway for players in Ireland," he said. "In terms of organisation, we have to improve and I believe there is an obligation on everybody to improve. That will take more than a few weeks but is one of the key focus points for 2014. Changing that is never a quick process. It might take 10 or 15 years but ultimately it will improve the game in Ireland."

CONSULT

"I am going to start with a national plan showing what we have to do. We will involve and consult people before we agree that this is the way. Rather than tell people what to do, I want them to ask questions so we can adapt to a good structure."

Dokter cited the example of his native country's masterplan back in the 1980s as reason to be hopeful of a sea-change being achieved in Ireland.

He was a student of the late great Rinus Michels, the Dutch mastermind responsible for introducing the concept of 'Total Football' in Holland.

"I was very lucky to work as a development officer under Rinus Michels," he said, "so I've seen it, done it and know what it takes. It takes a consistent, sustainable policy that is stuck to. One that doesn't change from year to year."

Key to his plan of action is lowering the age of the FAI's Emerging Talent Programme from U-14 to U-12, an exercise conditional on investment.

Given that there were budget reductions in the ETP over the last two years, Dokter admits he is relying on cash to have the project delivered.

"We need the ideas first but money must be taken into account," he confessed. The question is 'how do we fund it?' and maybe you have to adjust the plan."

Source

I'm sure this subject has been debated ad nauseum on boards but interesting comments all the same.

I'm not really that familiar with juvenile football around the country, but how things are done now will never get us anywhere.

I see what I reckon is the completely wrong mentality among almost everybody involved in the local game in my area.

Small kids playing full pitch...
League tables and divisions for teams of kids that aren't even 10 yet...
Emphasis on winning and nothing else at far too young an age...
Smaller kids not given chance to develop, because they are always smaller than teammates and are seen as less effective than big kids. They all deserve game time, but never playing the smaller kids because the u11s might not win the league... bloody hell

Then there's the "ship them off to England" mentality. Even at the height of the involvement of Irish players in top English teams, that mentality was wrong. The amount of lads that went to England and never made it, often came home and gave up.

There is too much competition in England now and it will only get less and less favourable for young Irish prospects.

A proper pathway in Ireland that allows them develop and play with the very best of their peers could be the making of Irish football and the saviour of the national team, but it needs sorting out.

The reason I say "saviour" is that I believe the talent available to the national team is going to keep dropping, as the number of Irish players able to make it in English football continues to diminish.

Dokter sounds like the right man, but I'm still hugely sceptical of him being allowed fix what is wrong, even if he was around for 15 years...

Thoughts? Disagree?

RoyalCelt

Do you not think we've quite a few decent players doing OK over in England? Even if they "only" make a few million a year that's enough for parents to take the plunge for a few years with their kid.

Unless something drastic is done (which it won't) we are going to fall even further behind. The granny rule will only get us so far.

civis_liberalis

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Do you not think we've quite a few decent players doing OK over in England? Even if they "only" make a few million a year that's enough for parents to take the plunge for a few years with their kid.

The sheer numbers of kids being sent to England is what I take issue with and the obsession many of the so-called leading juvenile clubs in Ireland have with it, along with their refusal to acknowledge the damage it does.

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Unless something drastic is done (which it won't) we are going to fall even further behind. The granny rule will only get us so far.

Even the granny rule will become less and less of a boon. English players are losing out, never mind the Irish ones, so the quality and quantity of granny rule players is likely to continue to drop for the foreseeable future.

.jacksparrow.

Get kids playing one touch football on smaller pitches.

Simple.

homerjay2005

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Get kids playing one touch football on smaller pitches.

Simple.

thats exactly whats been in place in certain areas, for the last 2 or 3 years.

i manage an U-9 team and its all small sided, zonal games that really is good to watch.

Mars Bar

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Get kids playing one touch football on smaller pitches.

Simple.

Well that goes without saying. But that's not the problem here.

As Dokter says, we don't have a "common pathway". We don't have an identity of football.

What our senior team is playing is so far removed from what the kids should be playing as they move up the age groups.

We can play 2-3-1 for 7 a side, 4-3-1 for 9 a side and 4-3-3 for 11 aside but how many senior teams in Ireland are playing 4-4-2? I'd say the majority.

Look at our underage international teams, playing 4-3-3 and then the senior team is playing a 4-4-2. There is no connect there. No common pathway.

dreamers75

Cant access twitter in work but @irishgrassroots

Has a few interesting tweets today about the problem and solution to our footballing issues.

homerjay2005

one key problem that keeps being ignored is the fact that we are a small nation that is competing with two really strong sports in GAA and Rugby, for our young lads attention and development.

its no coincidence that the best soccer areas underage in ireland are those where traditionally GAA and Rugby were not strong. its a problem that most other countries are able to absorb but we are not.

Milkers

homerjay2005 wrote: »

thats exactly whats been in place in certain areas, for the last 2 or 3 years.

i manage an U-9 team and its all small sided, zonal games that really is good to watch.

Then I'd guess 15 years is a massive underestimation.

Gavin "shels"

Shels introduced Coerver Coaching this season at under-age level, a 6-figure sum to get it all out but it was a huge step for Irish football imo.

The main problem with is the FAI, simple as. Sending kids to England as nippers in order for them to develop will never work long term, we'd be a much stronger footballing nation if we could produce players from schoolboys right up to 18/19 and then the option can be there.

The_Kew_Tour

We have talent here. No reason why we cant be at least at Sweden's or Croatia's level.

At present we are still far behind, but if we got our at together in next couple of years we can see the benefits within 10 years.

But the FAI are in the way. That's the major hurdle

homerjay2005

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

But the FAI are in the way. That's the major hurdle

surely Dokter is there to change that?

i will admit however, ive alot of experience with the FAI through various different channels and theres a bunch of them there that are 50-60 years old that need to be put out to the long grass and left chew away while other, younger fresher ideas come in.

you cant teach old dogs, new tricks and this is the first problem. after that, the mentality about sending young lads to England seems to be a big thing with them - i was shocked to be on courses last year and the "tutor" was on about sending lads over to England as if they were boxes of biscuits.

another issue is that while the coaching badges are to be admired, they cost a fortune. i hope to have 6 of them completed pretty soon, but they are really expensive and in my opinion, focused on making a profit than developing the coaches, who in turn develop the kids.

too many of the people who were on them courses with me werent paying attention, too many were there in the first place. should be done in small groups, with adequate hands on assessments with each coach given a career path, more support etc etc.

Mars Bar

homerjay2005 wrote: »

another issue is that while the coaching badges are to be admired, they cost a fortune. i hope to have 6 of them completed pretty soon, but they are really expensive and in my opinion, focused on making a profit than developing the coaches, who in turn develop the kids.

€300 for the Youth Cert and then an extra €75 to do the workshops that are compulsory to get your cert. I'm broke coz of it! And then our assessment was cancelled on Saturday coz of the weather.

The_Kew_Tour

homerjay2005 wrote: »

surely Dokter is there to change that?

i will admit however, ive alot of experience with the FAI through various different channels and theres a bunch of them there that are 50-60 years old that need to be put out to the long grass and left chew away while other, younger fresher ideas come in.

you cant teach old dogs, new tricks and this is the first problem. after that, the mentality about sending young lads to England seems to be a big thing with them - i was shocked to be on courses last year and the "tutor" was on about sending lads over to England as if they were boxes of biscuits.

another issue is that while the coaching badges are to be admired, they cost a fortune. i hope to have 6 of them completed pretty soon, but they are really expensive and in my opinion, focused on making a profit than developing the coaches, who in turn develop the kids.

too many of the people who were on them courses with me werent paying attention, too many were there in the first place. should be done in small groups, with adequate hands on assessments with each coach given a career path, more support etc etc.

You know more than me Homer.

Coached a team in Dublin for while and back home in Cork before that.

The main problem was it was all about the Result.

I think its going away from that from what I have seen since although I admit its not whole pile as im not involved as usual.

I have mate getting his badges. He shared same concerns as you and he added that some who have the badges still aint much better then when they started.

I would do them, but cost is getting in the way for me too.

The_Kew_Tour

Mars Bar wrote: »

€300 for the Youth Cert and then an extra €75 to do the workshops that are compulsory to get your cert. I'm broke coz of it! And then our assessment was cancelled on Saturday coz of the weather.

How many badges and stuff have you got Mars?

I be honest bit of noob on these things although in future I would like to give them go.

Mars Bar

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

How many badges and stuff have you got Mars?

I be honest bit of noob on these things although in future I would like to give them go.

Just the kick start 1 and 2 (although unlike others, I was actually assessed on them) and the three workshops and doing the Youth Cert now. I think I'd like to do the FA Youth Modules at some point. There's definitely gaps to be filled in with the FAI badges.

CSF

Gavin shels wrote: »

Shels introduced Coerver Coaching this season at under-age level, a 6-figure sum to get it all out but it was a huge step for Irish football imo

Not as huge as you'd think tbh.

civis_liberalis

homerjay2005 wrote: »

one key problem that keeps being ignored is the fact that we are a small nation that is competing with two really strong sports in GAA and Rugby, for our young lads attention and development.

its no coincidence that the best soccer areas underage in ireland are those where traditionally GAA and Rugby were not strong. its a problem that most other countries are able to absorb but we are not.

I don't understand how that relates to this.

Those are things that are outside our control. We can't blame the massive failings of football in Ireland on the competition.

764dak

civis_liberalis wrote: »

Small kids playing full pitch...
League tables and divisions for teams of kids that aren't even 10 yet...

I don't see the problem with league tables although divisions are kinda weird.

Mars Bar

764dak wrote: »

I don't see the problem with league tables although divisions are kinda weird.

It's the effect they have on some managers that is to the detriment to the children.

dyl10

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Get kids playing one touch football on smaller pitches.

Simple.

That might be part of the problem but an issue that many of the LOI teams have struggled with in Europe in the last decade has not been a lack of footballing ability but strength, size and athleticism. That's also true for many of our top international players in recent years.

glineli

I was involved with the ETP locally and really enjoyed the first 2 years, working with u11s and u12s. Focus was on small sided games, on touch and speed. Then comes kennedy cup year and its back to the old ways, dropping smaller players for bigger stronger lads with less technical ability. The young lads dropped, well you might have lost them forever.

Touch and pace, the 2 things any young lads should be working on. I would also get them involved at u8 level.

764dak

How many substitutions are allowed in youth soccer? Is it the same standard 3?

civis_liberalis

764dak wrote: »

How many substitutions are allowed in youth soccer? Is it the same standard 3?

I've only seen rolling subs in recent years myself, but I don't know what age that changes to mirror adult rules.