New satellites will tell if your over claiming

roosterman71

Interesting article by Anne Lucey and Stephen Cadogan in the Examiner today.

Do ye think this is the future? I remember the stories of using satellites to count sheep before, but this one is new

High-resolution satellites have detected that half of Co Kerry’s 8,000 farmers are claiming EU farm payments for agricultural land which is not suitable for farming.

Farmers are required to exclude from their annual payment application all ineligible features, such as buildings, farmyards, scrub, roadways, forests, and lakes.

The Government has this year been able to use the latest crystal-clear satellite technology to take thousands of images of farmers’ land to check how much of the land is eligible for payments.

Now it is going after farmers who have over-claimed.

According to the department, over-claims have no impact for 75% of farmers, because they declare more than enough land to cover payment entitlements.

However, 4,000 farmers in Kerry alone have received letters telling them they were applying for grants for ineligible land.

Agriculture Minister Simon Coveney rejected claims of unfairness by Kerry TDs, saying farmers in receipt of €11,000 in annual single farm payments would be paying back €400 where under 3% of their land was over-claimed.

Local TD Michael Healy-Rae branded the “accusation” against the thousands of farmers in Co Kerry as “outrageous” and said that many would have been misled when agreeing to designations of their land as special areas of conservation back in 2008.

He said a significant number would lose all their payments and he knew at least one farmer who would now have no money for Christmas because it was alleged 20% of his land was not in fact agricultural.

His fellow Kerry TD, Tom Fleming, said that most of those targeted were in the poorer land areas and it had to be remembered the mountain terrain in Kerry “breaks the cloud”.

“They are trying to keep scrub off their land and wipe out the rushes, which is impossible,” said Mr Fleming.

Acknowledging the issue was of particular concern in Kerry, the minister said the European Commission was demanding increased scrutiny.

“The commission is demanding that every country in Europe assess whether payments have been drawn down on land parcels that have been ineligible,” said Mr Coveney.

“Unlike many countries, Ireland has gone through an extraordinary detailed process of trying to assess every single land parcel in the country.”

All 950,000 land parcels in the country were being reviewed in what is known as the land parcel identification review.

He said that since the summer, his department had been working flat out to avoid penalties from the commission.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/half-of-kerry-farmers-over-claim-for-payments-252630.html

Farmer

I notice that my maps have a title "TSCR_BING_IMAGERY"

Unless the department have newer sources, then this link would suggest that most of the Bing Ireland maps are dated 2011 - 2012. My map from the department certainly looks identical to current Bing mapping and both still show an area of scrub that was removed and re-seeded in October 2012

Can anyone else verify changes on maps that they are aware of against dates or confirm whether the department are using something more modern or accurate than what is publicly available. I'm wondering if they have penalized people for 2013 based on 2012 data

EDIT: If using the link to validate a map date, be sure to zoom down to the lowest level as some of the higher up images are dated earlier

bob charles

Farmer wrote: »

I notice that my maps have a title "TSCR_BING_IMAGERY"

Unless the department have newer sources, then this link would suggest that most of the Bing Ireland maps are dated 2011 - 2012. My map from the department certainly looks identical to current Bing mapping and both still show an area of scrub that was removed and re-seeded in October 2012

Can anyone else verify changes on maps that they are aware of against dates or confirm whether the department are using something more modern or accurate than what is publicly available. I'm wondering if they have penalized people for 2013 based on 2012 data

you are correct, As i noticed the bing maps aswell. I have maps returned to say im overclaiming when in fact if they had up to date maps it would show the land was reclaimed

Conmaicne Mara

'kin hell. I can see planks I had laid out in a vegetable garden, drain spoil, hay feeder.

Neighbour will lose a huge chunk of land if they look at his, tis blackened from fire.

Anyone ever write a humorous note for the eye in the sky I wonder :pac:

Username John

Is there a link to see the maps? Oh, is it the maps viewable in the agfood site?

Conmaicne Mara

Username John wrote: »

Is there a link to see the maps? Oh, is it the maps viewable in the agfood site?

This is what I'm looking at, just Googled it, don't know if there's a different one

http://www.bing.com/maps/

scoobydoobie

Google earth has been updated in my area, i think the images are from about 6 months agao, last update was 2009, the images over my area are the best i have seen as it was a very clear summers day, sorry im not a farmer by the way.

Sunset V

Unbelievably misleading headline to be fair.

merryberry

Has anyone who has had their land measured with terrestrial GPS found discrepancies between area found and DAFM determination on area claimed?

bob charles

3 different applications I deal with and all have gotten letters. Ranging from .2 of a ha. In total over the 3 SFP's it totals a half hectare. handy way of holding onto cash for dept

Conmaicne Mara

bob charles wrote: »

3 different applications I deal with and all have gotten letters. Ranging from .2 of a ha. In total over the 3 SFP's it totals a half hectare. handy way of holding onto cash for dept

Enda will give Simon a nice pat on the head at the end of the year.

Farmer

Link to Dáil question raised by Tom Fleming and Simon Coveney's answers to same

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2013-12-12a.49&m=1050

Conmaicne Mara

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2013-12-12a.110&s=speaker%3A361#g111.q

Do I see slope mentioned, where did I hear of that before..........................................

Love Denis Naughtens final remark

Birdnuts

Coveney trying to blame the EU when its his officials that are working flat out to target farmers on poorer land. You can be sure French Farmers wouldn't put up with this kind of cr%p. Yet more evidence of this governments contempt for smaller producers in marginal areas. We should not be suprised though - it was Coveney and his fellow travellers that gutted the initial Cioelos CAP proposals that would have recognised and rewarded farmers that had land in sensitive areas all across the EU.

Conmaicne Mara

Birdnuts wrote: »

that would have recognised and rewarded farmers that had land in sensitive areas all across the EU.

Not quite. The original Ciolos proposals would have led to regionalisation in Ireland. I contacted Ciolos and he told me directly regionalisation was already in the Ministers power. It would have been a poison chalice for the areas above.

Birdnuts

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Not quite. The original Ciolos proposals would have led to regionalisation in Ireland. I contacted Ciolos and he told me directly regionalisation was already in the Ministers power. It would have been a poison chalice for the areas above.

I've been wading through various arguments on the many proposals that came before the commision. In at least one version it was sugesting more money going to Pillar 2 to support farmers in marginal areas - maybe I'm wrong but I was led to believe that the Commissioner supported this approach but the Irish government lobbied hard against it.

Conmaicne Mara

Birdnuts wrote: »

I've been wading through various arguments on the many proposals that came before the commision. In at least one version it was sugesting more money going to Pillar 2 to support farmers in marginal areas - maybe I'm wrong but I was led to believe that the Commissioner supported this approach but the Irish government lobbied hard against it.

Not sure on P2, more money could have have been an option.

The sticky point was P1. The money to fund a flat rate of €196 H/A would have to come from somewhere. Had "some farmers" thought they were getting too high a reduction to fund €196 H/A, they would have lobbied they guy in their pocket who could have brought in regionalisation/marginalisation (payment on land type/height)/co efficient. That could have seen a situation where a farmer in such an area would have had to have 5 H/A to make receive the €196 H/A payment that a farmer outside the area would have only needed 1 H/A to get the €196.

Either way would have seen my SFP increase I am at such a low level payment. But, quite a number of other farmers would have lost fairly heavily.

Farmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Do I see slope mentioned, where did I hear of that before..........................................

You'll be out with the chains and protractor now. Watch you don't poach the field when you're at it

On a more serious note, I wonder if appealing it automatically leads to a partial (area only) or even full inspection which might even leave things worse

keep going

Yeah got e few a queries and overall I think I might take it as if they came out they might reduce it more when they see it

Conmaicne Mara

Farmer wrote: »

You'll be out with the chains and protractor now. Watch you don't poach the field when you're at it

On a more serious note, I wonder if appealing it automatically leads to a partial (area only) or even full inspection which might even leave things worse

Slope is only fantasy, sure the earth is flat I can walk on water, so walking on land in Connemara won't be a problem, sure they're one in the same.

I'd be careful of making appeals if there is another on farm issue which may result in a fine. That's something an individual farmer should think about and consult his or her planner on IMO.

vincenzolorenzo

Bing maps looks to be well out of date. The pictures around my area are from around 2005/2006

keep going

Am I correct in thinking if you have less land than entitlements they deduct the lowest value entitlements first.I know they go back but most the places I have that are in trouble I only started renting last year but I also am renting land with very low entitlements

JohnBoy

Farmer wrote: »

You'll be out with the chains and protractor now. Watch you don't poach the field when you're at it

On a more serious note, I wonder if appealing it automatically leads to a partial (area only) or even full inspection which might even leave things worse

at the end of the day if you disagree with what the sattelite shows, then you'll have to get an inspector out to see the real situation on the ground.

and as Conmaicne Mara points out, if you're inviting them around the place you'd want to have your whole house in order.