Dublin Bus - messed up fare structure

bk

I'd like to give an example and discuss why the fare structures of public transport in Dublin are so messed up. So Lets take two possible journeys.

Dublin Airport to Marlay Park
Dublin Airport to Dun Laoghaire

Now both routes are roughly the same distance, 20km

Dublin Airport to Marlay Park you can take the 16 the entire way for one fare €3.05 *

Dublin Airport to Dun Laoghaire requires a change, you can either take two buses:
16/41 into town and then 46/7 to Dun Laoghaire, total cost €6.10
or you can take a bus into town and then the DART, total cost €5.85

Now the point I'm trying to make is, in both cases you are travelling the same distance, but just because you are unlucky enough to have to take two buses/train, you have to pay double the fare!

This wouldn't happen in most countries where a ticket normally gives you either 60 or 90 minutes unlimited travel on all public transport in the city.

That is what we desperately need in this city, a €3 cash, €2 or €2.50 flat leap fare that gives you unlimited travel on all public transport for 90 minutes.

And no daily capping on Leap just isn't good enough.

An alternative would be the system they have in Amsterdam where you pay for the distance you travel, per km, calculated using smart card and tag-on/tag-off.

This is what true multi-modal and integrated transport looks like, not the mess we have here in Ireland.

* Yes, Alex, lxflyer, these are cash fares, not Leap, these are the fares that the excellent site hittheroad.ie give, I don't want to make the adjustments, but the point is the same either way, it would still be double the price.

LXFlyer

Or you could get a Travel 90 10-journey ticket - either journey would cost €2.75.

That ticket allows 90 minutes unlimited travel, provided the final journey commences within 90 minutes of the first.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

Or you could get a Travel 90 10-journey ticket - either journey would cost €2.75.

That ticket allows 90 minutes unlimited travel, provided the final journey commences within 90 minutes of the first.

Meaning that, assuming we're following the other mantra to get a Leap card, we have to have two cards in our wallet, and two amounts of cash locked up...

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Or you could get a Travel 90 10-journey ticket - either journey would cost €2.75.

That ticket allows 90 minutes unlimited travel, provided the final journey commences within 90 minutes of the first.

A few problems with this:

- It won't work on the DART/Luas, lack of integration there. So you are forced to take DB, rather then what might be the quickest form of travel for your journey.

- It is too complicated, again you have to go out of your way to purchase this Travel 90 ticket, know it exists (many don't, when was the last time you saw an ad for the travel 90?) find a shop, buy the ticket, remember to always bring it with you, extra card in your wallet, not lose it, etc.

- Expensive upfront cost, many people can't afford €25 in one go like this.

Again it all shows that public transport ticketing is just too damned complicated in Dublin. Compare this to most European countries where any single ticket you buy, even on the bus, is automatically a travel 60/90 and works across all forms of public transport. Much, much easier to understand and use.

Victor

Multi-day tickets (days need not be consecutive) may also be of use.

I wonder how much Network Direct has hurt the fare box by turning €6.10 journeys into €3.05. That is probably an extreme example, but you know what I mean.

Transfer fares on Leap Card should help.

LXFlyer

MYOB wrote: »

Meaning that, assuming we're following the other mantra to get a Leap card, we have to have two cards in our wallet, and two amounts of cash locked up...

Well hopefully in time it will be added to LEAP - remember that LEAP is still being rolled out on a phased basis.

I am putting that option out there, that's all as the OP never mentioned it.

bk

Victor wrote: »

Multi-day tickets (days need not be consecutive) may also be of use.

Again has the same problems as T90 above, too complicated and too expensive up front.

The thing is you all seem to be missing the core point I'm trying to make. That public transport ticketing in Dublin is far too difficult to use and understand.

Yes options like T90, rambler exist, but the problem with them is:

- You need to know they exist, most people don't
- You have to remember to bring them and use them
- They cost too much up front
- They only work on DB

Again compare that to the ease of such products in other European countries where all single tickets are automatically T60/90.

In order for public transport to be successful it needs to be affordable and easy to use. There is nothing easy about T90/Rambler.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Well hopefully in time it will be added to LEAP - remember that LEAP is still being rolled out on a phased basis.

I am putting that option out there, that's all as the OP never mentioned it.

I didn't mention it, because most people don't know about it and it can't be used on DART anyway and the whole thing proves the point I'm making that public transport ticketing is far too complicated in Ireland.

Even if they do add T90, you still need to go to a shop to have it added to your ticket and you still have to know about it, far too complicated compared to what most countries have (single fares are automatically T60/90).

BTW So they still haven't added T90 to Leap, two years after the project launched and 14 years after it started!!

As for the "phased" comment that you keep making, I'll remind you that in Atlanta they rolled out their card, and eliminated all cash fares in just 6 months!

This included the ability of an e-purse, auto-topup and all existing multi-day ticket types on the card AND the ability to load ticekts and credit bought online on the bus.

Also all single tickets in Atlanta allow 4 transfers in 3 hours, between both bus and metro!!! All for just $2.50!!

And they did all of this in just 6 months, 8 years ago!!!!

Leap is a disgrace of a project compared to this.

dfx-

I don't get the 'it only works for DB' argument. You can get almost anywhere or within reach of anywhere in Dublin with DB. For the example given, that's what you need.

Also how do you go about informing everyone of all the options you can have for tickets? People are not concerned until they need to travel...at which point is too late.

bk

My normal bus journey is usually just one bus into town and I use Leap for that.

Yet about once or twice a week I take a journey to a friends house that either involves two buses or a bus and a DART.

Despite knowing that T90 exists, I haven't both it for this journey, as it is too expensive up front, I need to carry an extra card in my already full wallet, I have to go out of my way to buy one, I have to remember to bring it and use it.

Bah, despite knowing lots about public transport, even I don't bother with it!

However I've gotten fed up with paying the ever increasing double fare, so now I've taken to walking 2km to a DART station and taking just the DART direct from there. Public transport doesn't win from this.

KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I didn't mention it, because most people don't know about it and it can't be used on DART anyway and the whole thing proves the point I'm making that public transport ticketing is far too complicated in Ireland.

Even if they do add T90, you still need to go to a shop to have it added to your ticket and you still have to know about it, far too complicated compared to what most countries have (single fares are automatically T60/90).

BTW So they still haven't added T90 to Leap, two years after the project launched and 14 years after it started!!

As for the "phased" comment that you keep making, I'll remind you that in Atlanta they rolled out their card, and eliminated all cash fares in just 6 months!

This included the ability of an e-purse, auto-topup and all existing multi-day ticket types on the card AND the ability to load ticekts and credit bought online on the bus.

Also all single tickets in Atlanta allow 4 transfers in 3 hours, between both bus and metro!!! All for just $2.50!!

And they did all of this in just 6 months, 8 years ago!!!!

Leap is a disgrace of a project compared to this.

Look, I'm really trying not to get into a protracted debate here.

You didn't list the ticket - I'm pointing out that the trip can be done for €2.75 - that's all.

bk

dfx- wrote: »

I don't get the 'it only works for DB' argument. You can get almost anywhere or within reach of anywhere in Dublin with DB. For the example given, that's what you need.

Because a DART or Luas maybe significantly faster or more convenient for a particular route.

Most other countries understand this and have no problem allowing their T90's to operate across all forms of public transport.

Why is it so hard for us to do the same?

After all they are all the same bloody company (Luas indirectly, owned by the Dep of Transport).

dfx- wrote: »

Also how do you go about informing everyone of all the options you can have for tickets? People are not concerned until they need to travel...at which point is too late.

The trick is to not need to inform anyone. The trick is to make it the default, so people don't need to even think about it, like it is in most other countries.

Again Keep It Simple Stupid

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Look, I'm really trying not to get into a protracted debate here.

You didn't list the ticket - I'm pointing out that the trip can be done for €2.75 - that's all.

Actually it can't, it can only be done with a €25 purchase first.

What if you only make this trip once (for instance a tourist arriving in Dublin Airport), then you can't do it for €2.75.

DB got rid of the single T90 ticket in their infinite wisdom!

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Because a DART or Luas maybe significantly faster or more convenient for a particular route.

Most other countries understand this and have no problem allowing their T90's to operate across all forms of public transport.

Why is it so hard for us to do the same?

After all they are all the same bloody company (Luas indirectly, owned by the Dep of Transport).



The trick is to not need to inform anyone. The trick is to make it the default, so people don't need to even think about it, like it is in most other countries.

Again Keep It Simple Stupid

Without getting into a protracted debate - the issue is simple - FUNDING. Who pays for it.

Our government frankly has little interest in funding proper decent public transport - they've objected at every turn to any sensible fare structure changes - and hence we have the mess that we are left with.

We are now faced with exchequer funding falling by another 7% in 2014 and operators are supposed to maintain existing service levels. Go figure that one.

generic2012

If I was an evil person I would use a €7.50 5 day child rambler because I've only ever met one inspector in 5 years. But I'm not an evil person and I believe the reliable service, copious space, oh-so friendly bus drivers and super value fares warrant paying full price.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Actually it can't, it can only be done with a €25 purchase first.

What if you only make this trip once (for instance a tourist arriving in Dublin Airport), then you can't do it for €2.75.

DB got rid of the single T90 ticket in their infinite wisdom!

Look - please just stop picking holes. The option does exist for people who want it - that's all I was pointing out.

I'm not justifying it or defending it - just making the point that the option exists.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Without getting into a protracted debate - the issue is simple - FUNDING. Who pays for it.

I'm sorry but rubbish, public transport is highly subsidised in Ireland.

DB gets direct subsidy in the form of the PSO grant, worth about 25% of their operating costs.

But they also get massive amounts of indirect subsidies:
- Money for carrying people under the free travel scheme, probably another 15 to 20% of operating costs.
- Up to 50% of monthly and annual travel tickets paid for by the government (thus us tax payers).
- Buses bought for them by the NTA
- RTPI equipment bought by the NTA
- Depots and buildings bought for them by the government.

The reality is that when all of this is taking into account, DB receive similar amounts of subsidy as other European operators.

So I'm very tired of these excuses.

I'm also very tired of the excuse of Leap and other projects being phased and taking time. It is all taking far too long, far longer then other countries seem to easily do it.

Excuses, excuses.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

Without getting into a protracted debate - the issue is simple - FUNDING. Who pays for it.

Our government frankly has little interest in funding proper decent public transport - they've objected at every turn to any sensible fare structure changes - and hence we have the mess that we are left with.

We are now faced with exchequer funding falling by another 7% in 2014 and operators are supposed to maintain existing service levels. Go figure that one.

Succinct and concise answer.

Bk is quite correct to point out the wonders of "Integrated Ticketing" and the many systems which facilitate it.

Bk,again,is spot on when making reference to all those other EU Cities which feature such desirable items,in the process recognising the benefits of a functional Public Transport System.

BUT,Bk perhaps fails to accept that this issue is some level above Dublin Bus's sole responsibility.

Our "messed-up" Fare Structure is only thus because it exists to fulfill ONE purpose only,to maximize cash fare revenue per passenger journey,which task it performs admirably.

Much of the "Mess" can be explained by simple corporate disinterrest and lack of oversight,whereby the ONLY aspects of a Fare-Stage system required by the Customer,the ACTUAL on-street Stage Markings,were deliberately erased from the ENTIRE system...I cannot explain,or defend that action,which IMO SHOULD have been met with a significant punitive response by Consumer Protection Agencies...but it was'nt....;)

Today,some 50% of my passengers are,on a daily basis, voluntarily CHOOSING to pay the most expensive Fare for their journey.

I continually point out,particularly to my €3.05 regulars,that they could be paying €2.50,but get only gruff responses along the lines of "Ah sure,I don't use the Bus enough to bother with it".....from individuals I see EVERY day WTF !!!!.

One person making two €3.05 journeys per day,5 days a week....€30.50 per week....One person making the same journeys on Leapcard €2.50 x 2 x 5 = €25 per week.

No matter what gloss can be put on it,and even allowing that the entire Government handling of the Integrated Ticketing System has been a TOTAL incompetent disaster,there is a pont at which people cannot be mollycoddled any longer,IF voluntarily overspending floats yer boat,fire away,BUT don't let me see or hear the same people bellyaching about the evils of the Troika or the Bankers etc etc....By their own actions this significant chunk of "The Irish Public" are very clearly explaining exactly WHY the bloody Troika had to visit in the first place !

Twelve years,and €40 MIllion ago,the first step of ANY Integrated Ticketing System was VERY obvious,as it remains today....No.1: SET YOUR INTEGRATED FARE.

However,our vastly more cone-headed professionals were convinced that continuing as we were,with every lad operating their own system,was perfectly acceptable,and not alone that,but would be a doddle to integrate "at some point in the future".....now that future point has come and gone,and we struggle to see the benefits of that 12 year and €40 million.

If the likes of Roald Dahl wrote this stuff It would now be a Classic :rolleyes:

bk

The thing is Alex, integrated ticketing doesn't have to mean lost revenue like lxflyer seems to think it means.

As you rightly point out, many people are actually willing to pay a higher fare for convenience. In your case, paying the cash fare over the way too complicated process of getting and running a leap card.

It seems people find ease of use and convenience more important then cost.

So lets make true integrated ticketing easy to use, but not necessarily cheap.

Make all single tickets a T90 across all operators, charge a flat €4 for cash, €2.50 for Leap and get rid of all other fares.

Simple and easy to use and understand.

Our alternatively go for the Amsterdam model and use modern technology.

You tag on and tag off on every bus, tram and dart you use on your journey and pay per the distance you travel. The per km charge can be adjusted so that no money is lost by the companies.

A very neat and fair solution IMO.

Certainly the current broken system can't be left to continue.

LXFlyer

Bk - can I ask a simple question?

Have you actively engaged at any time directly with the NTA or the Ministers on this?

TheBandicoot

dfx- wrote: »

I don't get the 'it only works for DB' argument. You can get almost anywhere or within reach of anywhere in Dublin with DB.

Well for example, to get to work I can take a train to Docklands, which is the normal option at peak, or a train to Pearse off peak, or if I am late and can't wait for the one train an hour off peak, I could take a bus to Blackhall Place and get a Luas from Museum to Mayor's Square.

I currently use a Leap card for this, but having a multi-operator ticket that reduced the price as much as possible and gave me the flexibility to choose any of the above journeys would be useful.

Dravokivich

bk wrote: »

Certainly the current broken system can't be left to continue.

Indeed, however they aren't looking to change it, was it 2014 or 2015 it's due to be revamped?

I thought I read somewhere that transfers are meant to be in the pipeline for Leap as well. So that'll act as a T90, without the need for getting one. Unsure if that's going to be across operators, or solely within Dublin Bus usage though.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Bk - can I ask a simple question?

Have you actively engaged at any time directly with the NTA or the Ministers on this?

Yes I do, frequently.

But I think it is also well worth discussing in public here on boards as it gets people to think about it and it puts pressure on the relevant departments and ministers to actually do something about it.

If you just engage with them directly, it is too easy for them to fob you off and brush it under the carpet.

noelfirl

bk wrote: »

Excuses, excuses.

Because going on and on about Amsterdam, Atlanta, etc. on Boards is inducing a positive change?

Contact the NTA
Contact the Minister for Transport
Contact Enda Kenny
Start a "Concerned citizens for integrated transport" group
Start a web blog

With due respect, your current approach is about as much use as a tinker's fart...

dfx-

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Well for example, to get to work I can take a train to Docklands, which is the normal option at peak, or a train to Pearse off peak, or if I am late and can't wait for the one train an hour off peak, I could take a bus to Blackhall Place and get a Luas from Museum to Mayor's Square.

Is the 151 from the quays no use? If your original bus is a 37/39/39A, you can easily join up with the 151 and have no need to get a multiple operator ticket..

TheBandicoot

dfx- wrote: »

Is the 151 from the quays no use? If your original bus is a 37/39/39A, you can easily join up with the 151 and have no need to get a multiple operator ticket..

I suppose it could, if I changed at Bachelor's Walk. To be honest I hadn't thought of that.

But the point is I don't always use the 39a, I only use it if I am not going to make it to the train in time and can't afford to sit at home for another 45 minutes. So regardless I will be using multiple operators and would like one ticket for all of them. The Leap is the closest thing to that now.

bk

noelfirl wrote: »

Because going on and on about Amsterdam, Atlanta, etc. on Boards is inducing a positive change?

Contact the NTA
Contact the Minister for Transport
Contact Enda Kenny
Start a "Concerned citizens for integrated transport" group
Start a web blog

With due respect, your current approach is about as much use as a tinker's fart...

I do, I have contacted all of those.

I'm also very active in the area of improving broadband. I was a committee member of IrelandOffLine for many years. A group dedicated to improving BB in Ireland.

We openly talked about the issues here on boards, which ended up getting read by journalists. I was often quoted word by word in newspaper articles.

This lead to us being regularly invited to meetings with the relevant ministers, departments and companies and they took us seriously.

It took many years, but we are finally starting to get there on the BB front. UPC 200mb/s available to many people, Eircom rolling out 100mb/s VDSL to 1.4 million homes, ESB about to launch a Fibre To The Home project to 400,000 homes.

All because we openly talked about it here on boards.

Again just writing to a minister or department isn't going to get you anywhere. They will just throw it in the bin. Instead you need to discuss these things in the open and build up public support for improvements while also working with these people.

Dyr

dfx- wrote: »

I don't get the 'it only works for DB' argument. You can get almost anywhere or within reach of anywhere in Dublin with DB

ballymun to clontarf dart station..10 minute drive via car, what is it via bus

stoneill

Perhaps someone could summarise all the options available for tickets.
The DB website does not mention some other options mentioned here (T60/T90).

coolemon

AlekSmart wrote: »

Today,some 50% of my passengers are,on a daily basis, voluntarily CHOOSING to pay the most expensive Fare for their journey.

I was one of those people. But now I walk or cycle to avoid the high cash costs. I never switched to LEAP.

It is quite a gamble for DB to assume those people will switch to LEAP by ratcheting up the cash prices. They might just do what I do and not use the bus any longer.

LEAP is not convenient, and I dont appreciate being ripped off because I choose to use coin.

I was on the bus yesterday, (accompanying an elderly person so without paying), and most of the people who got on paid with cash.

Perhaps the problem is that DB dont want to facilitate peoples method of payment without ripping them off?

Thats the problem right there.

LXFlyer

stoneill wrote: »

Perhaps someone could summarise all the options available for tickets.
The DB website does not mention some other options mentioned here (T60/T90).

All of the Dublin Bus prepaid tickets are listed here - including the Travel 90:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Tickets/

ballooba

coolemon wrote: »

It is quite a gamble for DB to assume those people will switch to LEAP by ratcheting up the cash prices. They might just do what I do and not use the bus any longer.

I do use Leap, but I recognise its many flaws. It would have been better to resolve the problems with it before trying to convince (force) people to switch over. I have learned that if you give customers a flawed product at the start that they will form negative perceptions on it that are very hard to counter. Better to delay launching and get the quality right.

GerardKeating

lxflyer wrote: »

Or you could get a Travel 90 10-journey ticket - either journey would cost €2.75.

That ticket allows 90 minutes unlimited travel, provided the final journey commences within 90 minutes of the first.

Why can't the Bus Driver sell a transfer 90 ticket. It must be just a simple matter of programing (and labelling) a button on the ticket machine...

dfx-

Bambi wrote: »

ballymun to clontarf dart station..10 minute drive via car, what is it via bus

Ah I was careful not to mention the word direct or compare its time to any other form of transport...

You can make that link if you had to, it won't be 10 minutes and it won't be direct, even with a multiple operator ticket. (17A and Dart in the multiple operator case)

LXFlyer

GerardKeating wrote: »

Why can't the Bus Driver sell a transfer 90 ticket. It must be just a simple matter of programing (and labelling) a button on the ticket machine...

It would be a bit more than that - the travel 90 ticket would have to be able to be validated on other buses. The current machines only issue paper tickets.

Whether the functionality would be there with LEAP, I'm not sure - I don't know if the ticket machines can load a ticket product onto LEAP.

Lifelike

It's worth noting that up until February 2012 a 10 journey T90 ticket cost only €19. From the 1st of January it will cost €27.50, an increase of almost 50% in less than two years! I think the reason this was done is the NTA wanted the over 13 stages Dublin Bus fare on the Leap Card to be cheaper than T90. In the process, however, they have destroyed what was a very useful ticket when taking the bus only once in a given day, or as bk has said, for doing cross-city journeys without being ripped-off.

Instead, the so-called 'flat fare' of €2.50 on Dublin Bus should simply include 90 minutes of free transfer onto another bus. Get rid of the now overpriced T90 ticket, and there you have a bit of an incentive for people to take cross-city journeys again on the bus, and another incentive to get people to use Leap cards.

Victor

Bambi wrote: »

ballymun to clontarf dart station..10 minute drive via car, what is it via bus

10 minutes in the middle of the night maybe, not rush hour. https://maps.google.ie/maps?saddr=Ballymun+Road%2FR108&daddr=Unknown+road&hl=en&ll=53.379233,-6.245556&spn=0.042495,0.122223&sll=53.379233,-6.244698&sspn=0.042495,0.122223&geocode=FZa_LgMd-mqg_w%3BFeJBLgMdUv6g_w&mra=ltm&t=m&z=13

Yes, most public transport trips would be 40-50 minutes. www.a-b.ie.

LXFlyer

Lifelike wrote: »

It's worth noting that up until February 2012 a 10 journey T90 ticket cost only €19. From the 1st of January it will cost €27.50, an increase of almost 50% in less than two years! I think the reason this was done is the NTA wanted the over 13 stages Dublin Bus fare on the Leap Card to be cheaper than T90. In the process, however, they have destroyed what was a very useful ticket when taking the bus only once in a given day, or as bk has said, for doing cross-city journeys without being ripped-off.

Instead, the so-called 'flat fare' of €2.50 on Dublin Bus should simply include 90 minutes of free transfer onto another bus. Get rid of the now overpriced T90 ticket, and there you have a bit of an incentive for people to take cross-city journeys again on the bus, and another incentive to get people to use Leap cards.

I suspect that you are right re the NTA thinking - although I don't think that the Travel 90 was originally planned to be used for single journey non-transfer travel, well certainly not the over 13 stages fare. That really happened by accident than design. It doesn't really make any sense!

We'll have to wait and see - I'd hope that we will see more time-based transfer tickets in the future - I suspect it will be a phased process regardless so as to minimise significant impact on farebox revenue.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

The thing is Alex, integrated ticketing doesn't have to mean lost revenue like lxflyer seems to think it means.

As you rightly point out, many people are actually willing to pay a higher fare for convenience. In your case, paying the cash fare over the way too complicated process of getting and running a leap card.

It seems people find ease of use and convenience more important then cost.

So lets make true integrated ticketing easy to use, but not necessarily cheap.

Make all single tickets a T90 across all operators, charge a flat €4 for cash, €2.50 for Leap and get rid of all other fares.

Simple and easy to use and understand.

Our alternatively go for the Amsterdam model and use modern technology.

You tag on and tag off on every bus, tram and dart you use on your journey and pay per the distance you travel. The per km charge can be adjusted so that no money is lost by the companies.

A very neat and fair solution IMO.

Certainly the current broken system can't be left to continue.

But Bk,this is my very point...those people you suggest are paying a "Convenience Premium" are not in any way getting Convenience at all....

Instead these people,and they are numerous,will generally be the one's asking how much is the fare ...then expressing indignation :mad: at the amount before finally rooting around in pockets,bags and other receptacles for coinage,all the while delaying some other poor eejit who HAS shown a bit of initiative and common sense,not to mention co-operation in the interest of the common-good.

Is there an answer...I believe there is,and it is the removal of the layers of alternatives to simple compliance. If there is any opportunity to hurl on the ditch,then we will grasp it eagerly...it's our national trade mark !