ATH Quarter-final 2: Teamshadowclan vs Machismo Fan

Bounty Hunter

1 Semi Finalist has almost been decided, now to decide who will face off against that person in the next round and to do so we have a question put forward by our very own Beakerjoe

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Q: Its the week before WM 29, Cena v the rock is days away and Cena is injured on a house show just before the go home edition of Raw. He cant compete at all as his injury is so severe. What do you do about the main event with only 2 shows to go?

after your first post: why would your choice be better than your oponents?

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so have at it and g'luck lads!

Machismo Fan

A tricky one to answer because a week before the show all the other feuds have already been set up or established and taking say Undertaker out of his match with Punk would leave a hole in the card. So my choice is to remove Randy Orton from the opening six man tag and place him into the main event instead. This creates as little interference as possible with the main card while establishing a really good credible main event. It doesn't really matter who they put in Orton's place (they could just scrap the pre-show match and put Miz there).

On the go home show you wouldn't acknowledge Cena's injury and Cena comes out to open the show. He's doing his usual stick when The Shield's music interrupts. Just as they get to ringside Orton runs out for the save and fights off The Shield along side Cena. But then he drops Cena with an RKO, sulks into the corner and punts Cena into 2014. Everybody freaks out, Cena does the stretcher job, is announced that he's off 'Mania and a battle royal is set up later in the show to get a replacement which Orton naturally wins.

The go home segment is a face off between Rock and Orton. Rock says he never liked Cena but he did respect him and he's going to get revenge for what Orton did. Orton says he wasn't getting any opportunities so he decided to take them instead, Rock will suffer the same fate Cena did and that he'll be new WWE Champ come Sunday.

Smackdown will be spent hard selling Orton as a major contender with a main event win over Jericho and a series of video packages cataloging his major wins and past devious acts, plus another promo by Rock saying he's going to punish Orton for what he did. You shouldn't have to work too hard to get Orton over but he wasn't really treated as top level at the time so you'd make an effort to make him seem like a viable replacement for Cena in what is still a big clash of Rock vs. one of the biggest modern era stars.

As I said at the start my aim was to create a scenario where there's as little damage done to the existing card as possible while still setting up a really legitimate main event. Orton's heel turn was long rumoured and this was as good a time to do it as any, there's plenty of people for him to work with after (Bryan, Kane, Sheamus, Jericho, Ryback, ADR) and it sets up a natural return feud for Cena once he's ready to come back. Plus Rock vs. Orton is still a big match that's never been done before, and would be a really good match to boot.

Lord TSC

Machismo Fan

Essentially, what we have here is a situation whereby the Royal Rumble winner has hurt himself. Worse, it's your biggest star, missing a match that, really, has been built up for two years. Your selection of viable alternatives are short, with Rock having already trounced Punk, and very few other people who the fans will accept as viable opponents. You could throw Brock at him, but that's going to possibly destroy a future money making match. So to me, what you need is to find an opponent who comes at a high level of credibility, but also one who you don't see as someone who can make money with The Rock for too much longer.

Yes, there's only one man who I think fits that description.

I'd spend the Raw with multiple people stating they deserve the biggest title match of the year. Punk wants a rematch against the man who took the title. Ryback came second in the Rumble. Sheamus eliminated more people than anyone else. Ziggler lasted longer. Most of the roster have a claim, and at the end, they all come to blows. And as they do, Vince comes out and announces that now, since the Rumble winner is out, Wrestlemania will stage the biggest Battle Royal in history, where the entire Roster will be entered. The winner will immediately face The Rock for the WWE Title. The biggest Battle Royal for the Biggest Prize on the Grandest Stage of them All. They continue to brawl, until the lights go out, the gong sounds through the arena. They come back on, and Undertaker stands in the middle of the ring.

Now, you've got a week to push that in an attempt to gain the ultimate prize, The Undertaker will take on his biggest ever Wrestlemania challange. Not one opponent, not two, not three....the entire roster!

On to Mania, the card goes on as normal. The only difference is earlier in the night, you orchestrate an angle where Punk attacks Undertaker backstage, trying to hurt him. They get pulled apart, though Punk gets kicks in on Taker's knees, hurting him. The commentators announce a few minutes later that Undertaker vs Punk has been postponed due to their brawl. More so, they cast doubt on whether or not Undertaker can even compete in the match. In many ways, this would be a bait and switch of the old bait and switch technique, making people think WWE have created an out for Undertaker.

The match takes place at the end of the night; the entire roster empties out. They go at it, throwing each other out, beating each other down. The commentators stressing that this is for a shot at the grandest prize in the business. They start whittling each other down, and more importantly, they can use the match to start teasing other feuds. Brock can be there, tossing people out for fun, when he gets eliminated by Punk. The Shield stay as a team, eliminating people together.

And then, as the numbers start to dwindle, the lights go out. They come on, and The Undertaker stands in the ring. He starts throwing punches, eliminating people. He tosses out Punk who tried to cost him the shot, he throws out The Shield (which leads into them taking him out the next night). Some people look to try and "End the streak" but he fights them off, and in the end, Taker wins.

Straight away, without a chance to regain composure, Rock's music hits. He strides down, and now the idea becomes Rock vs Taker, a massive match in itself, but the streak on the line? And Taker in a weakened condition. Fans will be able to buy Taker as a threat to Rock, but will easily buy The Rock as a threat to the streak as well, especially in a weakened condition. And a benefit is, no one will expect a MOTY cause Taker has already gone through the Battle Royal. That lowers expectations for the match.

Of course, Taker manages to overcome the odds. He wins the title. Rock shakes his hand, and the crowd go home happy.

On Raw the next night, you can pick up where you left off, with The Shield putting him out of action. They can strip him of the title, and announce that they will hold a tournament to find the next champion, giving themselves more time to decide how to fill in the absence left by Cena. They can take time to build someone up.

They provide people a reason to buy the Pay Per View. They deliver a massive "Wrestlemania Moment". And they buy themselves time to figure out how to replace Cena, instead of rushing through a non-credible opponent to The Rock.

Machismo Fan

While I don't deny the appeal of a Rock/'Taker match, I don't think it's that smart to go into WrestleMania without an advertised main event (especially when the main event will be such a big match). I don't think a Battle Royal is ever going to be a huge hook for the paying public. I get that you try to create all the doubt about The Streak using the Battle Royal but I don't think it's necessary. I think a straight up Rock vs. 'Taker Streak vs. Title match has all the intrigue in the world even at a weeks notice (though it would then leave Punk with nothing to do on the show) but you're going to lose business by going into the show without promoting it. I don't think you'd have to work so hard to make people think Rock can beat 'Taker.

Also I don't like bait and switching the CM Punk/Undertaker match. It's a big match and was easily the best match on the show I think the show would be much worse off without it, nevermind the problems with advertising the match and failing to deliver it.

And I don't really think you'd need to lower expectations going into a Rock/'Taker match. I have very little doubt that they'd deliver a top quality WrestleMania match. I think like the Daniel Bryan thing this year, stripping 'Taker of the title the next night might make people feel like WrestleMania was then a little pointless. I think it'd make much for sense for him the keep the title for a month or two at least and then drop it to somebody (which is the reason Orton works as a replacement, when he wins he can just carry on as normal rather than one of the part timers).

Lord TSC

Machismo Fan

While I understand the fear of heading into Mania without a solid main event advertised, I believe that a week out from Mania, most people will have decided whether or not they are buying the show. The undecideds, however, likely won't be swayed by Rock vs Orton if they weren't tempted by Rock vs Cena. A weeks build up is not going to present that match as a massive main event after the years of doing nothing with Orton (remembering at this stage, Orton had spent quite a bit of time doing little). I think that for both of our ideas, we both have to accept that Cena's injury is going to cause a hit to buyrates.

I'd also point out that while I would not be advertising the show as "Rock vs Taker", it would be heavily implied on both the go home shows and all promotional material sent out in the last week. I believe this implication, along with the "Grandest Battle Royal of All Time", and the HHH/Brock and Taker/Punk (even if it didn't happen) would provide more sales of the show than just adding a straight up Rock/Orton match to the card.

We both are trying to book the same story in many ways, though you are trying to cram a lot of it into Raw. One difference I notice is you use Smackdown, and while I get why you want to use it to build Orton as a contender, the reality is most people don't watch Smackdown and it won't have a massive impact on what people think of Orton. This is evident by the fact that mor the majority of PPVs, WWE use Raw as their Go-Home show. It's the end of Raw that sells PPVs. Smackdown just kind of happens in between. I left out that Smackdown show for a reason. It's also worth noting that so important is that Smackdown before Mania, it only featured two matches this year (Ryback/Primo&Epico and Swagger/Kofi; if I remember right, both were recorded at Raw, and the rest of the show was hype material and Axxess clips).

For me, a week just wouldn't be enough time to build up Orton AND an angle, so I believe you've got to build one or the other. And I don't believe a week is enough time to really build up anyone as a credible threat to Rock if they aren't already there. That's why I've focused on building up a story rather than an individual, and used Mania as well to build that story; hyping the Battle Royal has the possibility of creating multiple contenders and stories in the short and long term.

I also don't believe people would react as badly to Taker losing the title the next night as they did with Bryan, for the simple reason I think the majority of fans will accept that the plans had to go out the window a week before the biggest show of the year and that WWE had to come up with something big and fast. With Bryan, time was spent building to his title win. It was something drip-fed to fans for months, only to be constantly denied. Here, the situation is different; with Cena out and only a week to go, I think most people will accept that WWE had to do something drastic, and would rather time was spent building up someone after Mania, as opposed to hotshotting someone up the card and strapping the title on them regardless of how credible the person was at that stage in time.

So I think the main difference between us right now is this; you are trying to book a credible opponent in a week. I want to book a credible story in a week. And I think that with such little time, fans will be more accepting of a short, contained story as opposed to strapping a massive rocket to Orton's back.

Machismo Fan

I think you're a little too quick to dismiss the usefulness of Smackdown. Last week 2.8 million people watched Smackdown, 3.541 million watched Raw. That's not a huge difference at all. When your two years in the making main event falls through the week of I think you'd be silly to disregard Smackdown as unimportant. I use it to reinforce Orton and try and get over the main event. Nothing huge but at least I'm making productive use of it.

I don't think people would have such a hard job taking Orton seriously for a main event against The Rock. Even while they were doing nothing with him he was still one of the most popular guys in the company and when they pushed him to the top again this year people had no problem accepting him as a top guy and WWE champ (all the backlash was against the booking of Bryan, not that it was Orton that he was losing to). He's won everything there is to win and has been main eventing for the best part of a decade. I don't think he won't be taken seriously, especially after he takes out Cena.

I still think it's a mistake to have a match as big as Rock/Taker and not advertise it in advance and I think it's just bad business to advertise a match as big as Punk/Taker which had been heavily promoted and then not deliver it (why heavily hint at Rock vs. Undertaker instead of just set the match up outright). I think a scenario where Taker becomes No. 1 contender on the go home Raw and he has to wrestle Punk and Rock in the same night would be a much better way of getting there. You work very hard to create all this doubt about the streak on the show itself (with the Punk attack and a battle royal) but not much before the show other than advertising the battle royal (which I don't think would really capture the imaginations of the casual paying audience) when Rock vs. Taker should create all the doubt you ever need (even better if you go the route of Taker wrestling Punk and Rock in the same night).

Also Rock seems almost like a background player. He kind of just pops up at the end for the title match which I think is a mistake, especially considering he's the biggest star in the company.

My scenario takes Cena out (setting up the eventual Cena return match vs. Orton) putting the heat on Orton. It sets up a first time ever replacement match in advance with two of the biggest stars of their respective generations, two third generation stars with a built in story of Rock looking for revenge because of what Orton did to Cena. Plus instead of a part timer beating Rock and then disappearing the next night, Orton can continue afterwards business as usual.

Lord TSC

Machismo Fan

In the months leading up to Mania, Orton had, at best, been doing nothing. At worst, we can look at how his year before had been...less than a year before hand, he had been suspended for a wellness violation. He missed two months. When he came back, he drifted through midcard feuds, and in the build up to Mania, he was placed in the opener. And lost.

Personally, I think any other PPV, any other opponent, and you might be able to build him up in a week. But at Mania, against The Rock? I don't think that's a money maker at all, and I think the fans wouldn't buy it. More so, I don't think the two would be able to build a "Wrestlemania Moment". I conceed that teasing Rock vs Taker might not be a big draw, but I don't think Orton vs Rock is going to be something that turns the Maybes into Definities either.

Even now, he's only near the top of the card as HHH's lackey. He himself is not the top bad guy, despite being champion, and even with a few months build up as champion, I don't think many will buy the idea he can beat Cena at a B-PPV. At least, not without a screwy ending. And I think this is something that's key here; we're talking about the Orton of 8 months ago, not the Orton of today he's had the last few months of him at the top.

Taker vs Rock on the other hand could easily be built, even without offically confirming the match, as an all time epic moment.

Of course Rock wouldn't be a "background player"; if anything, the uncertainty could be used to let him cut some great promos on multiple roster members, let's him interact with people he wouldn't have before. Not just Taker or Orton but any number of people, both on Raw and on the PPV itself.

When booking Wrestlemania, the focus often is and should be on the pay per view itself. Presenting the biggest show of the year, with the biggest matches and the biggest moments. Orton vs Rock, with a weeks build, is not going to have the same potential as Rock vs Taker to produce that "Once in a lifetime" moment, that "Wrestlemania Moment".

Ultimately, no story started a week before Mania is going to properly replace the draw of "Twice in a Lifetime", two years in the making. And as such, I argue that in place of trying to pop the buyrate, WWE should focus on producing the memory that would last a lifetime instead.

Bounty Hunter

Congrats Machismo & commiserations TSC, closely fought battle but we now know the first Semi-Final is: thebostoncrab vs Machismo fan