calving jack question

aidanki

that time of year will be coming again soon......

have a regular calving jack that ratchets back each leg individually, its great it works and all the rest

supposedly there is another jack a VINK jack which has the ropes setup so that it pulls both legs together, which would be more friendly on the calf I guess

anyone done a mod to a regular jack to get it to perform like a VINK

freedominacup

aidanki wrote: »

that time of year will be coming again soon......

have a regular calving jack that ratchets back each leg individually, its great it works and all the rest

supposedly there is another jack a VINK jack which has the ropes setup so that it pulls both legs together, which would be more friendly on the calf I guess

anyone done a mod to a regular jack to get it to perform like a VINK

Absolutely not. Pulling 2 legs together means trying to get all of the calf out through a space you've already established to be too small. Pulling each leg alternately is much easier on cow and calf and allows time for her to open. I had a loan of a vink for 2 nights at the start of last season and couldn't wait for my replacement Moorepark one to come. I literally wouldn't take a present of a Vink.

towzer2010

aidanki wrote: »

that time of year will be coming again soon......

have a regular calving jack that ratchets back each leg individually, its great it works and all the rest

supposedly there is another jack a VINK jack which has the ropes setup so that it pulls both legs together, which would be more friendly on the calf I guess

anyone done a mod to a regular jack to get it to perform like a VINK

Don't know anything about the vink but pulling both legs together sounds a bad job to me as it locks the shoulders making it harder to pull the calf. The standard jack that wriggles the calf out by pulling either leg alternately has to be a much better job.

Zr105

Id agree with the lads that surely its harder on cow and calf, like your only pulling one leg ahead a few inches not a foot or two,

But the other thing id see is that your putting more work on yourself aswell by trying to do all the pulling in one direction, the other way its half load each way

John_F

fairly sure the vink is alternate pulling, supposedly the best out there

freedominacup

John_F wrote: »

fairly sure the vink is alternate pulling, supposedly the best out there

No straight pull

http://www.mullinahonecoop.ie/assets/catalog/parts/CTL00685.jpg

Nekarsulm

With the Tecnic style jack, just tie an extra knot in one rope, 2 or 3 inches back from the end. Then the shoulder that this shorter rope is connected to, will come first, if you see what I mean.

jersey101

freedominacup wrote: »

No straight pull

http://www.mullinahonecoop.ie/assets/catalog/parts/CTL00685.jpg

the jack here pulls the same as that jack. If it sees a dozen outings in the year thats about it

freedominacup

jersey101 wrote: »

the jack here pulls the same as that jack. If it sees a dozen outings in the year thats about it

Would any of them be on a Sat evening around beer time?;)

jersey101

freedominacup wrote: »

Would any of them be on a Sat evening around beer time?;)

dont ye know it the 12 saturday nights ye intend to go out ye have the one that needs to be jacked. We bought a new jack here a few years ago same style as the one we had before, which was 15yr old maybe. First outing she bent up in a hoop

redzerologhlen

jersey101 wrote: »

dont ye know it the 12 saturday nights ye intend to go out ye have the one that needs to be jacked. We bought a new jack here a few years ago same style as the one we had before, which was 15yr old maybe. First outing she bent up in a hoop

Was that one with a round shaft on it, a friend sent me a pic last year of a new jack he had got and the same thing happened!

jersey101

redzerologhlen wrote: »

Was that one with a round shaft on it, a friend sent me a pic last year of a new jack he had got and the same thing happened!

yep thats the one. With all the notches in it

aidanki

freedominacup wrote: »

Absolutely not. Pulling 2 legs together means trying to get all of the calf out through a space you've already established to be too small. Pulling each leg alternately is much easier on cow and calf and allows time for her to open. I had a loan of a vink for 2 nights at the start of last season and couldn't wait for my replacement Moorepark one to come. I literally wouldn't take a present of a Vink.

interesting, other than having someone say that the Vink was better, the reason I was thinking it was better was its the natural way a calf is born, both legs together, rather than a step by step approach

anyone from the veterinary profession reading and care to give us the medical version

J.O. Farmer

I would use the jack a little differently to how ye seem to use it. I use the jack as a lever pulling when the cow pushes. I then use the rachet to take up the slack in the rope. I do use the ratchet to pull once I get the calf past the shoulders and it's slipping out handy maybe going back to levering at the hips.
In using the jack this way you don't put as solid a pull on the cow. If you use the jack this way you won't be pulling to hard on any legs with the rachet and so whether it pulls one at a time or both together is less important.

redzerologhlen

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I would use the jack a little differently to how ye seem to use it. I use the jack as a lever pulling when the cow pushes. I then use the rachet to take up the slack in the rope. I do use the ratchet to pull once I get the calf past the shoulders and it's slipping out handy maybe going back to levering at the hips.
In using the jack this way you don't put as solid a pull on the cow. If you use the jack this way you won't be pulling to hard on any legs with the rachet and so whether it pulls one at a time or both together is less important.

Is that not the way everyone uses it? The only time I'd stay ratcheting is if the calf was coming tailways

J.O. Farmer

redzerologhlen wrote: »

Is that not the way everyone uses it? The only time I'd stay ratcheting is if the calf was coming tailways

I didn't think that with lads worried about pulling one leg more than the other and doing damage to the calf. When I'm levering I have even pressure on both legs so the way a jack ratchets is irrelevant once it's a design that won't slip.

freedominacup

redzerologhlen wrote: »

Is that not the way everyone uses it? The only time I'd stay ratcheting is if the calf was coming tailways

Nope always ratchett here. Levering is placing far more pressure on cow and calf. The give away is in the verb, levering. The reason for the hinging is that it is better to pull at a downward angle one the ribcage is out as this mimicks how the calf would come in an unassisted calving.

J.O. Farmer

freedominacup wrote: »

Nope always ratchett here. Levering is placing far more pressure on cow and calf. The give away is in the verb, levering. The reason for the hinging is that it is better to pull at a downward angle one the ribcage is out as this mimicks how the calf would come in an unassisted calving.

It would depend on the force you use one said lever. Also when levering you let off the pressure when the cow is no longer pressing. The calf may slip back a fraction as the cow relaxes and then the slack can be taken up.
If you use constant ratchet you keep a constant solid pull on the calf. Would that solid pull not be be more severe on the cow and calf with no break until the calf is out.

freedominacup

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

It would depend on the force you use one said lever. Also when levering you let off the pressure when the cow is no longer pressing. The calf may slip back a fraction as the cow relaxes and then the slack can be taken up.
If you use constant ratchet you keep a constant solid pull on the calf. Would that solid pull not be be more severe on the cow and calf with no break until the calf is out.

No you only ratchet when she pushes and just hold when she stops. You keep a bit of downward pressure on the jack no more than necessary to keep it level. I wouldn't be as experienced as some here with really difficult pulls mainly because I'd be half way through a section when some posters would be bending jacks. I don't know which is the better way but that's how we prefer to do it.

Bizzum

My use of the jack is to ratchet to a point and then apply leverage as the cow forces. The amount of leverage is a delicate art. There are times when a sideways leverage are used too.
Any slack would be taken up with the ratchet.

J.O. Farmer

freedominacup wrote: »

No you only ratchet when she pushes and just hold when she stops. You keep a bit of downward pressure on the jack no more than necessary to keep it level. I wouldn't be as experienced as some here with really difficult pulls mainly because I'd be half way through a section when some posters would be bending jacks. I don't know which is the better way but that's how we prefer to do it.

I would hope you only ratchet when she pushes but when you hold you still have a solid pull when you hold. Also if somebody is bending the jack they've putting serious pressure on it and by extension the cow and calf. I might be levering but I'm not going to be bending a jack.

jersey101

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I would hope you only ratchet when she pushes but when you hold you still have a solid pull when you hold. Also if somebody is bending the jack they've putting serious pressure on it and by extension the cow and calf. I might be levering but I'm not going to be bending a jack.

ah jacks nowa days arent what they used to be. Any calf we would pull here would from an easy calving fr bull so ye shouldn't bend a jack with them sort of calves. Same as freedom here we only jack when the cow pushes

Richk2012

Interesting reading ...
I do the same as J.O , and lever more than ratchet .
Your never going to achieve the same power ratcheting as you will with a 5ft lever , however i think the deciding factor is wat type of cows and what type of farmer is the jack working with .

Is it a man whose is calving dairy cows who comes across the odd sticky calving but calf quality isn't a huge issue as his main objective is a strong cow with plenty of milk
Or a man who is calving suckler cows and who is using bigger stronger terminal sires to try and improve calf quality the whole time

J.O. Farmer

You have to be careful with the jack. I'm never any further than halfway down the jack and don't apply any more pressure than is necessary to have the calf moving using 1 hand. I agree if you were swinging out of the end of the jack you have serious power and could do a lot of damage.
I feel that you have a better feel for what's happening rather than if you use straight ratcheting.

freedominacup

Richk2012 wrote: »

Interesting reading ...
I do the same as J.O , and lever more than ratchet .
Your never going to achieve the same power ratcheting as you will with a 5ft lever , however i think the deciding factor is wat type of cows and what type of farmer is the jack working with .

Is it a man whose is calving dairy cows who comes across the odd sticky calving but calf quality isn't a huge issue as his main objective is a strong cow with plenty of milk
Or a man who is calving suckler cows and who is using bigger stronger terminal sires to try and improve calf quality the whole time

Exactly, that's why you are only supposed to use the ratchett. 5 minutes of this is the equivalent of an hour with 2 men on ropes. How much power do you want? Of course calf quality is an issue for dairy farmers, live calves and cows that will stand up and milk are an issue too.

I have a neighbour with around 60 sucklers. We used to get called a couple of times a year for calvings and he always had a couple of sections every year also. He changed his dry cow management a couple of years ago and we haven't been called since. His calves mightened be up to your standard though, they are only U grade finishing at around 16 months. 2013's were particularly poor only grossing around the €1800 mark each for the bulls.

kay 9

Ye lads sound like ye are respectful of animals. Seen a fella break a jack, then got the landcruiser into action, fookin cruel. We are in between the levererers and the ratceters here. Mixing it up with both

TITANIUM.

Allot of good points there guys. As said in another thread the best thing is to give her time to do the job herself (as im sure you'll all agree). With the jack you have to take into account the cow the bull the calf the feed the jack the man and the availability of help. Id much rather call a buddy then tackle him with the jack.
we would ratchet past the shoulders working with the cow. Then a little bit of leverage downwards and take up the slack with the ratchet. Bit by bit. Same as allot of lads id say.
That being said no two calvings are the same and if a calf is stuck at the hips with a standing cow then maybe there's a bit of brute force and ignorance required.

J.O. Farmer

kay 9 wrote: »

Ye lads sound like ye are respectful of animals. Seen a fella break a jack, then got the landcruiser into action, fookin cruel. We are in between the levererers and the ratceters here. Mixing it up with both

Was he trying to calve the cow or trying to see could he pull the cow apart.

redzerologhlen

freedominacup wrote: »

Exactly, that's why you are only supposed to use the ratchett. 5 minutes of this is the equivalent of an hour with 2 men on ropes. How much power do you want? Of course calf quality is an issue for dairy farmers, live calves and cows that will stand up and milk are an issue too.

I have a neighbour with around 60 sucklers. We used to get called a couple of times a year for calvings and he always had a couple of sections every year also. He changed his dry cow management a couple of years ago and we haven't been called since. His calves mightened be up to your standard though, they are only U grade finishing at around 16 months. 2013's were particularly poor only grossing around the €1800 mark each for the bulls.

He may as well sell up if that's the best he can do

TITANIUM.

freedominacup wrote: »

Exactly, that's why you are only supposed to use the ratchett. 5 minutes of this is the equivalent of an hour with 2 men on ropes. How much power do you want? Of course calf quality is an issue for dairy farmers, live calves and cows that will stand up and milk are an issue too.

I have a neighbour with around 60 sucklers. We used to get called a couple of times a year for calvings and he always had a couple of sections every year also. He changed his dry cow management a couple of years ago and we haven't been called since. His calves mightened be up to your standard though, they are only U grade finishing at around 16 months. 2013's were particularly poor only grossing around the €1800 mark each for the bulls.

Tell the ape to go back to the old system.;-)

moy83

kay 9 wrote: »

Ye lads sound like ye are respectful of animals. Seen a fella break a jack, then got the landcruiser into action, fookin cruel. We are in between the levererers and the ratceters here. Mixing it up with both

I know a lad that uses the tractor for pulling calves but he just uses it to put a light strain on things and he stands on the rope then to do the jacking that way . It works well for him and I wouldnt say its any worse than straining with the jack .
I would tend to use the ratchet to take the slack up and then lever with the jack as she pushes .
The most improtant thing is to know when not to use the jack and when to call the vet , some lads think the jack will bring anything out of a cow but this just isnt the case

Richk2012

freedominacup wrote: »

Exactly, that's why you are only supposed to use the ratchett. 5 minutes of this is the equivalent of an hour with 2 men on ropes. How much power do you want? Of course calf quality is an issue for dairy farmers, live calves and cows that will stand up and milk are an issue too.

I have a neighbour with around 60 sucklers. We used to get called a couple of times a year for calvings and he always had a couple of sections every year also. He changed his dry cow management a couple of years ago and we haven't been called since. His calves mightened be up to your standard though, they are only U grade finishing at around 16 months. 2013's were particularly poor only grossing around the €1800 mark each for the bulls.

I don't see the need for the attitude or sarcasim .

Fair play to your neigbour , delighted for him reaching great prices and not requiring your assistance during calving.

Read my post again I never said calf quality is not an issue in dairy farming but its more of an issue in suckler farming as the calf is the main source of income.

delaval

A few rules for calving on a dairy farm

1. Cow calving smoke 1 cigar before interfering

2. Heifer smoke 2

3. Check cows at 11pm. If nothing going on head to bed

4. If cow sick, handle to check if all is coming ok and hit the hay

5. Be in the yard at 5.30. Can't be done if up all night.

6. Minimum disturbance of late preg cows I.e. moving with cattle trailer etc.

7. Excellent quality Pre calver minerals

8. Be sure all vaccines are up to date

9. I nearly forgot, lots of Calcium and a flutter valve

John_F

freedominacup wrote: »

No straight pull

http://www.mullinahonecoop.ie/assets/catalog/parts/CTL00685.jpg

not so here http://www.vink-elst.nl/vvc.html

Only available with alternate traction

http://www.vink-elst.nl/download/313/leaflet-vink-calfpuller.pdf

freedominacup

Richk2012 wrote: »

Interesting reading ...
I do the same as J.O , and lever more than ratchet .
Your never going to achieve the same power ratcheting as you will with a 5ft lever , however i think the deciding factor is wat type of cows and what type of farmer is the jack working with .

Is it a man whose is calving dairy cows who comes across the odd sticky calving but calf quality isn't a huge issue as his main objective is a strong cow with plenty of milk
Or a man who is calving suckler cows and who is using bigger stronger terminal sires to try and improve calf quality the whole time

I've just read it again, what is your point in the boldened bit? I took it to mean that you believed that dairy farmers were unconcerned with calf quality.

If my neighbour is anything to go by there is no direct correlation between calf quality and calving diificulty, you fairly baldly stated the opposite. Calving diificulty for particular bulls can vary from as low as 1% to 25-30% on different farms for a large number of reasons. The various reasons have one thing in common, they are management decisions made by the individual farmers. Everything from cow type, to heifer management, to dry cow management to management of the actual calving itself. Make enough wrong ones and you'll have plenty of trouble, make enough right ones and you should have things a bit easier.

Milked out

Used the jack here once in the last three years. Dairy here put the same bull would clean up the cows as well as the heifers. HF AI on all heifers and angus or Hereford bulls mop up. Also use BB and AA straws on cows I don't want replacements from. The short gestation length of these breeds particularly n recent bulls has helped the calvings no doubt

onyerbikepat

Ah c'mon, tractors and landcruisers to pull calves. Calving Jacks are meant to give mother nature a gentle help, not tear the bejazus out of her.
I can see a time coming, on animal welfare grounds, when farmers will have to complete a training course on how to calve a cow.

freedominacup

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Ah c'mon, tractors and landcruisers to pull calves. Calving Jacks are meant to give mother nature a gentle help, not tear the bejazus out of her.
I can see a time coming, on animal welfare grounds, when farmers will have to complete a training course on how to calve a cow.

AFAIK it's illegal for anyone other than a trained vet to use one in Holland. I could be wrong, you can own one just not use it.

onyerbikepat

Actually, it's Sweden.

"Mechanical calving aids may only be used after the approval of a veterinarian in each individual case"

page 41 of this;
http://www.econwelfare.eu/publications/EconWelfareD1.2Report_update_Nov2010.pdf

TEAT SQUEEZER

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Actually, it's Sweden.

"Mechanical calving aids may only be used after the approval of a veterinarian in each individual case"

page 41 of this;
http://www.econwelfare.eu/publications/EconWelfareD1.2Report_update_Nov2010.pdf

any mention of self propelled calving aids vroom vroom:D... heard of lads tying the calfs legs to a gate post and letting the cow off to do the pulling:(