Accountant Fees

cathleencp

I am a sole trader based in Athlone. I had a 1.5 hour meeting with our accountant to review our F11 before we submitted it and we exchanged approx 5 emails with simple queries. I was invoiced for €350 excld VAT with no breakdown of hours - just Consultation Fee. Was I overcharged?

dbran

Hi

Without knowing the full facts it is hard to give an answer.

However, the fees that you were charged would be based on the amount of time taken to carry out the task and also on the level of skill and expertise involved and therefore the charge out rate of the member of staff used.

Even if we were to say it took approximately 2 hours to complete the assignment that works out at an average of €175 per hour which may be about right depending on the size of the firm and the degree of partner involvement.

Did you ask how much this was going to cost in the beginning? How much did you expect to pay?

Regards

dbran

cathleencp

The accountant is a sole trader and I met with the accountant in his own home

dbran

Did you agree a fee?

cathleencp

No - he is a friend which makes it difficult

Corkbah

cathleencp wrote: »

No - he is a friend which makes it difficult

if he is a friend then you are better off paying it (maybe keep friends separate from business in future)

no harm in using someone else for next years accounts, my accountant charges me €650 for a years VAT and income tax returns, I pass in the bag of receipts every 3/4months and its calculated and I'm given a figure to pay ….. as far as I'm concerned its great - he may or may not be doing the best possible for me but in previous years I have been charged €1500 and €1300 for doing the exact same work by other accountants - my bills/income has changed marginally but now my accounting bill is lower.

work is definitely to be kept away from friends - in my opinion.

dbran

I see.

If it was just a simple return then it may have been a bit on the high side. However if there was a set of accounts required or produced, rental income or there were complications involved then this would be different and the fee would be as expected if not more.

Best thing to do in the circumstances is to perhaps approach them and mention that the fee was more then you expected and to see if you could come to some arrangement either to reduce it or allow it to be paid off in stages.

Regards

dbran

censuspro

Corkbah wrote: »

if he is a friend then you are better off paying it (maybe keep friends separate from business in future)
no harm in using someone else for next years accounts, my accountant charges me €650 for a years VAT and income tax returns, I pass in the bag of receipts every 3/4months and its calculated and I'm given a figure to pay ….. as far as I'm concerned its great - he may or may not be doing the best possible for me but in previous years I have been charged €1500 and €1300 for doing the exact same work by other accountants - my bills/income has changed marginally but now my accounting bill is lower.
work is definitely to be kept away from friends - in my opinion.

Respectfully, this is the type of client that accountants should avoid. Show me the accountant that charges €650 per annum for bookkeeping, VAT, submitting their income tax return and I’ll show you a busy fool.
Accountants fees for a self-employed income tax return generally starts at €250 up to €750 plus VAT.

Sam Kade

censuspro wrote: »

Respectfully, this is the type of client that accountants should avoid. Show me the accountant that charges €650 per annum for bookkeeping, VAT, submitting their income tax return and I’ll show you a busy fool.
Accountants fees for a self-employed income tax return generally starts at €250 up to €750 plus VAT.

The accountant I have uses his secretaries to do my return and he'll give a quick look over it before they send it off. His secretaries are not qualified accountants he still charges €1300 yearly just for returns and a book keeper that calls every 3 months which goes to 6 months when she feels like it, €500 of the €1300 goes to her and the head office fat cats in Dublin :mad: I only found out this year that the secretaries are doing the returns as he said he is too busy. One meeting with him a year when payment is due and never a straight answer to any queries. He's getting the road in January after 23 years

Corkbah

censuspro wrote: »

Respectfully, this is the type of client that accountants should avoid. Show me the accountant that charges €650 per annum for bookkeeping, VAT, submitting their income tax return and I’ll show you a busy fool.
Accountants fees for a self-employed income tax return generally starts at €250 up to €750 plus VAT.

are you genuinely asking for my accountants details or trying to make fun …claiming my accountant isn't doing things right …or that I'm the type of person an accountant wants to avoid ??

I really can't decipher what you are trying to say here.

dbran

Sam Kade wrote: »

The accountant I have uses his secretaries to do my return and he'll give a quick look over it before they send it off. His secretaries are not qualified accountants he still charges €1300 yearly just for returns and a book keeper that calls every 3 months which goes to 6 months when she feels like it, €500 of the €1300 goes to her and the head office fat cats in Dublin :mad: I only found out this year that the secretaries are doing the returns as he said he is too busy. One meeting with him a year when payment is due and never a straight answer to any queries. He's getting the road in January after 23 years

Most of the staff in a small office would not be qualified. But their work would be supervised and reviewed by more senior qualified staff.

What you describe would be normal. I cant comment on the level of the fee but if you were with them for 23 years then you must have been happy with it.

Dont see the relevance of your point re where the money goes to be honest. Lots of it also goes to the tax man, insurance, rent, software, salaries, utilities, rates,etc. At the end of the day its a business for the purpose of making a living.

dbran

dbran

Corkbah wrote: »

are you genuinely asking for my accountants details or trying to make fun …claiming my accountant isn't doing things right …or that I'm the type of person an accountant wants to avoid ??

I really can't decipher what you are trying to say here.

Hi

The fee level also struck me as being very low.

He may indeed be doing a great job for you. But if he is, he may be selling himself short and working very hard for very little reward. Unless of course your business is very small, in which case he may not be.

Best Regards

dbran

Sunny Dayz

OP - how did you end up spending an hour and a half discussing your income tax return? Had you a lot of queries or issues to go through? Was there a lot on the tax return to discuss? Or was it more of a consultancy meeting rather than the actual tax return? Any smaller clients we had in to discuss their accounts and tax return took 15-30 mins.

Corkbah

dbran wrote: »

Hi

The fee level also struck me as being very low.

He may indeed be doing a great job for you. But if he is, he may be selling himself short and working very hard for very little reward. Unless of course your business is very small, in which case he may not be.

Best Regards

dbran

my business is small and fairly easy to calculate …. income is only from 5/6 sources and reasonably regular …expenditure is mainly equipment and small regular work expenses.

less than 40K income - sole trader.

lakill Farm

surely the 1.5hours is part of the full accounts and tax fee? shoulds overcharging.

I reguarly meet clients and go to them and dont charge as your either providing a service or your not.

i say over charge

smcgiff

cathleencp wrote: »

I am a sole trader based in Athlone. I had a 1.5 hour meeting with our accountant to review our F11 before we submitted it and we exchanged approx 5 emails with simple queries. I was invoiced for €350 excld VAT with no breakdown of hours - just Consultation Fee. Was I overcharged?

It does sound expensive for 1.5 hours and 5 quick emails.

Not expensive if the emails required research work on behalf of the accountant.

The thought crossed my mind that if ye were friends a lot of the 1.5 hours may not even have bee work related!

Immy

Like other have said may be on the high side for a consultation and a few emails. But I wouldn't think it was exactly a rip off.

ebbsy

Been in practice since 1998.

That price is not bad at all.

Op is not being overcharged.

We are not cooking burgers here !!!!!!

SeanSouth

You're not piecing together rocket engines either......

ebbsy

SeanSouth wrote: »

You're not piecing together rocket engines either......

Well then everyone should do it themselves then, if they and deal with the revenue when they botch it up.

J.Ryan

cathleencp wrote: »

I am a sole trader based in Athlone. I had a 1.5 hour meeting with our accountant to review our F11 before we submitted it and we exchanged approx 5 emails with simple queries. I was invoiced for €350 excld VAT with no breakdown of hours - just Consultation Fee. Was I overcharged?

What were the 5 emails about? The weather?

It sounds like the OP dropped the books in, the accountant did some work on same, then the OP went in and had a meeting some time after the accounts/return was completed to approve same.

Of course I could be wrong in my assumptions, but as it reads that you were not just charged for the one meeting.

ebbsy

The accountant just does not get a set of accounts and pump the figures into a form 11. He will have to review them, and amend if necessary. That's what the 5 emails were for I would guess.

J.Ryan

ebbsy wrote: »

The accountant just does not get a set of accounts and pump the figures into a form 11. He will have to review them, and amend if necessary. That's what the 5 emails were for I would guess.

I know, I was being Sarky.

Taxuser1

think most here should go back to their study books and look for the term "Letter of Engagement"

if you're not happy from the outset, then don't take on the accountant/tax professional

strikes me that most people think they need an accountant when they could be using the cheaper services of a book-keeper and get peed off when they see accountancy prices. At the end of the day, what service do you want the professional to provide? Go to an accountant if you want a set of accounts prepared in a professional manner with general commercial advice. Go to a book-keeper if you want day to day recording of invoices and thereafter go to a tax professional if you want your taxes covered. An accountant isn't a book-keeper and isn't a tax advisor. So make sure you know what you want from them.

smcgiff

Taxuser1 wrote: »

think most here should go back to their study books and look for the term "Letter of Engagement"

if you're not happy from the outset, then don't take on the accountant/tax professional

strikes me that most people think they need an accountant when they could be using the cheaper services of a book-keeper and get peed off when they see accountancy prices. At the end of the day, what service do you want the professional to provide? Go to an accountant if you want a set of accounts prepared in a professional manner with general commercial advice. Go to a book-keeper if you want day to day recording of invoices and thereafter go to a tax professional if you want your taxes covered. An accountant isn't a book-keeper and isn't a tax advisor. So make sure you know what you want from them.

Re tax advisor. While some complex tax advice is best received from a tax advisor most people will be well served by their accountant.

Taxuser1

smcgiff wrote: »

Re tax advisor. While some complex tax advice is best received from a tax advisor most people will be well served by their accountant.

strikes me as advocating a service over another on a general basis. accountants aren't convenience stores - they (even I) learn how to put a set of accounts together and study a small bit of taxation and what they learn in practice might get them through simoler matters much like preparing a small set of accounts or an Income and Expenditure can be dealt with by either a book-keeper or consultant. it's disengenuous to say that only complex tax matters are dealt with by a tax advisor, most of their day to day grind is the compliance requirements of sole traders, small and large limited companies and tax services that go with it. Knowing both sides of the services provided, accountants and tax advisors contribute greatly across a wide spectrum required, offering great services and no one is doubting that but the subject here is fees for what was essentially a meeting and the suggestion is that if the poster is unhappy he could shop around for specific services if unhappy.