ATH Quarter-final 1: thebostoncrab vs Shagnasti

Bounty Hunter

So he we are in the quater-finals and up first is defending champion ThebostonCrab vs Shagnasti. After already competing you know the rules but I've posted them again anyway along with a question I used previously in ATH but this year was submitted by another quater finalist D.Q

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Q: If you could form a stable from the current roster and fantasy book a programme for them, who would make up the stable and who would you pit them against?

after your first post: why would your choice be better than your oponents?

---

so have at it and g'luck lads!

thebostoncrab

Shagnasti

Let's Fantasy fastforward to January 2014. Randy Orton is the Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of the world. The Autohority have stood tall over the company and their vision for what's best for business has remained in tact. John Cena is taking time away from the title scene to challenge himself and to prove himself by challenging The Undertaker at Wrestlemania XXX. It seems like no one can stop The Authority, until two men stand at the top of the stage. Two men that the group have clearly being trying to eliminate over the past few months:


CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. They both declare that The Authority only cares about what is best for them and their friends, not for the fans. The fans keep chanting their names through out WWE Television and PPVs. The fans are sick of the same old same old, and so are they. They have been talking to some of the boys in the back, and they agree that the fans are crying out...for The Revolution.

But there is a problem. The boys are scared. They all have families to support, and fear that if they act against the powers that be, they will be fired. So neither Punk or Bryan are the best when it comes to legal, so they needed help from someone who knows a thing or two about how the WWE political and legal system works. Someone who has no fear of the McMahon empire, because they are already a part of it.

The music hits, and out comes the back and legal aid for The Revolution, Shane McMahon himself! Shane speaks about how before he left the WWE, he beloved it was time for a revolution. He wanted to buy the UFC years before it became huge. He wanted the product to keep up with what fans actually want, not the same main events for almost 10 years. So after talking with Punk and Bryan, he thought enough is enough, and it's time to restore the WWE to its former glory and give the fans what they want.

He admits, he isn't a wrestler, and fans don't want to watch him wrestle. As great as these two men are, they can't fight the numbers behind The Authority alone. They need help, but like they said, the locker room is afraid. So he has recruited help from two men hungry to make a name for themselves, from NXT Sami Zayn and Adrian Neville. The two men debut as a tag team.

The 5 stand at the top of the stage, but Shane says "Oh, there is one final person. Someone who the WWE has been overlooking for almost 10 years now. Thankfully, this man, one of the most phenomenal workers in the globe, has become the worlds hottest free agent. He has some aggression to deal out to you"

AJ Styles debuts by standing with the rest of The Revolution.


The group would begin their feud against The Authourity, leading to a few match ups at Wrestlemania:

Undisputed Champion:
CM Punk vs. Randy Orton

Extreme Rules:
Daniel Bryan vs. HHH

US Title:
AJ Styles vs. Dean Ambrose

Tag Titles:
Zayn and Neville vs. Rollins & Reigns



It's a group that will establish Punk and Bryan back firmly into the main event, bring in Styles to the company in a strong way and debut two great talents as a tag team. The match ups would be exciting and playing off the history of Shane O Mac would make for juicy promos and, of course, that brilliant Shane O Mac bump at a PPV.


Join The Revolution.

ShagNastii

If I was to form a stable right now it wouldn’t base it around a group to counteract the authority. I feel this angle and the people on the roster that can counteract “the business” believably to be few and far between. I would develop my stable around two legends and a feud we are yet to see grow roots. It would be a quint addition to the feud between John Cena and Satan himself, The Undertaker. These two seem destined for a Wrestlemania match up so let’s stir it up a bit.

Although the “I’m going to finish the streak” is all you can deal with really when it comes to Takers mania feuds they have produced decent build ups and always great matches. Taker has always comes into these match ups answering a challenge and looking fearless in doing so.

Maybe this time let’s have Taker noticing the real threat of the almighty John Cena. Have him address his concern and how he feels he has to come out fighting. He thinks this one could require some backup and he is going to have to turn up the demonic mindgames to 11. That is why the Ministry of Darkness needs to be reborn. He isn’t going to be calling Viscera, Mideon, JBL, Farooq or even the Brood though. He is bringing a brand a new darkness. One that John Cena or even the WWE universe know nothing about.


It will start at the Royal Rumble as John Cena closes the show holding aloft his WWE undisputed title which he has just defended successfully. As he celebrates the victory the arena falls to black and a dark message in Undertaker purple with crosses and a gravestone flicker on the Titantron. The gravestones settles and on it reads

“April 6, 2014 (Wrestlemania XXX date) John Cena. R.I.P”

Cena looks with fear almost knowing exactly what this means and who it is.

The next night on RAW. Cena comes out and comments on his win and how he isn’t afraid of anyone that can challenge him for his title. He even does a “breaking fourth wall” and comments that he isn’t afraid of the deadman. As he comments the arena goes black as demonic messages flicker yet again on the scene. On the ramp there is a two man silhouette. Cena shouts for whoever it is to come get some. They disappear as the light comes up. Cena fights in the main event and as he again wins, a haunting laughter rains over the arena. Light off-Lights on. The Ascension are in the ring and deliver a gruesome beat down. The pair warn Cena that “he is coming”. Cole and JBL question who are these man and what do they want.


The next week as question are being asked before RAW. WWE.com gets “hacked” and one every page there is a picture of John Cena with a skull over his face and a eulogy talking of darkness falling and again, the WM XXX date. This week on RAW as Cena gives an interview backstage, the graphic from WWE.com flashes on the screen as we see The Ascension and a tablet wielding Solomon Crowe beat the WWE champ into a bloody mess. The trio lean over and almost in a trance shout R-I-P.


The final week before there are video released subliminally teasing the Undertaker and his new pack. As a six man battle royal takes place to determine the last entrant in the elimination chamber. Cena is left with Orton in the ring. Lights off-Lights off. In the ring are the Ascension, Solomon Crow and Paige. They again overpower the champ and hit his with some vigorous moves and as he lies flat Paige kisses him mockingly whispers “Welcome to your nightmare”.

At the Chamber the main event is won when Cena is in the final two and gets distracted by the flicker on the titantron and gets nailed to lose his title. As the new champ celebrates on stage Cena is in the ring on his knees. Lights off-Lights on. In the chambers are his four previous attackers. He runs towards them and gets some nice shots in, but as he seems to be handling the gruesome gang the lights go off again. As the lights come up Undertaker in the ring. Cena stands shooked as he then receives a five-some of finishers.

The next night, the Undertaker introduces his new Ministry and explains why he felt the need to put them on Cena. They grow as a formidable ensemble. They feud all the way to WM with the mindgames continuing. Undertaker wins but not after Cena overcomes a constant barrage of attacks from the four rookies. There is possible a rematch within the following months. Taker would maybe fall off at this stage and but it would have invigorate something a bit different to the streak and will have made the four rookies look like a million dollars.

The ministry is reborn.

thebostoncrab

Shagnasti

ShagNastii wrote: »

If I was to form a stable right now it wouldn’t base it around a group to counteract the authority. I feel this angle and the people on the roster that can counteract “the business” believably to be few and far between.

The Authority angle is still young, this isn't a year long angle, it only began in August and is about to reach the middle of it's life cycle. Now is the perfect time to bring a stable into the mix to counter the group, and my team has more than enough areas to believably counter The Authority, but I'll get to that later.

ShagNastii wrote: »

I would develop my stable around two legends and a feud we are yet to see grow roots. It would be a quint addition to the feud between John Cena and Satan himself, The Undertaker. These two seem destined for a Wrestlemania match up so let’s stir it up a bit.

Although the “I’m going to finish the streak” is all you can deal with really when it comes to Takers mania feuds they have produced decent build ups and always great matches. Taker has always comes into these match ups answering a challenge and looking fearless in doing so.

Maybe this time let’s have Taker noticing the real threat of the almighty John Cena. Have him address his concern and how he feels he has to come out fighting. He thinks this one could require some backup and he is going to have to turn up the demonic mindgames to 11. That is why the Ministry of Darkness needs to be reborn. He isn’t going to be calling Viscera, Mideon, JBL, Farooq or even the Brood though. He is bringing a brand a new darkness. One that John Cena or even the WWE universe know nothing about.

It will start at the Royal Rumble as John Cena closes the show holding aloft his WWE undisputed title which he has just defended successfully. As he celebrates the victory the arena falls to black and a dark message in Undertaker purple with crosses and a gravestone flicker on the Titantron. The gravestones settles and on it reads

“April 6, 2014 (Wrestlemania XXX date) John Cena. R.I.P”

Cena looks with fear almost knowing exactly what this means and who it is.

The next night on RAW. Cena comes out and comments on his win and how he isn’t afraid of anyone that can challenge him for his title. He even does a “breaking fourth wall” and comments that he isn’t afraid of the deadman. As he comments the arena goes black as demonic messages flicker yet again on the scene. On the ramp there is a two man silhouette. Cena shouts for whoever it is to come get some. They disappear as the light comes up. Cena fights in the main event and as he again wins, a haunting laughter rains over the arena. Light off-Lights on. The Ascension are in the ring and deliver a gruesome beat down. The pair warn Cena that “he is coming”. Cole and JBL question who are these man and what do they want.

The next week as question are being asked before RAW. WWE.com gets “hacked” and one every page there is a picture of John Cena with a skull over his face and a eulogy talking of darkness falling and again, the WM XXX date. This week on RAW as Cena gives an interview backstage, the graphic from WWE.com flashes on the screen as we see The Ascension and a tablet wielding Solomon Crowe beat the WWE champ into a bloody mess. The trio lean over and almost in a trance shout R-I-P.

The final week before there are video released subliminally teasing the Undertaker and his new pack. As a six man battle royal takes place to determine the last entrant in the elimination chamber. Cena is left with Orton in the ring. Lights off-Lights off. In the ring are the Ascension, Solomon Crow and Paige. They again overpower the champ and hit his with some vigorous moves and as he lies flat Paige kisses him mockingly whispers “Welcome to your nightmare”.

At the Chamber the main event is won when Cena is in the final two and gets distracted by the flicker on the titantron and gets nailed to lose his title. As the new champ celebrates on stage Cena is in the ring on his knees. Lights off-Lights on. In the chambers are his four previous attackers. He runs towards them and gets some nice shots in, but as he seems to be handling the gruesome gang the lights go off again. As the lights come up Undertaker in the ring. Cena stands shooked as he then receives a five-some of finishers.

The next night, the Undertaker introduces his new Ministry and explains why he felt the need to put them on Cena. They grow as a formidable ensemble. They feud all the way to WM with the mindgames continuing. Undertaker wins but not after Cena overcomes a constant barrage of attacks from the four rookies. There is possible a rematch within the following months. Taker would maybe fall off at this stage and but it would have invigorate something a bit different to the streak and will have made the four rookies look like a million dollars.

The ministry is reborn.

Undertaker vs. John Cena at Wrestlemania does not need a stable behind it any way shape or form, primarily as there is no pay off from it for anyone in 'Taker's stable. The focus of the feud and the end result is Cena vs. Undertaker and nothing more. In your booking you have Cena going at it alone. In order for it look like Cena could actually beat Undertaker, he needs to beat the guys in his new stable, so you have Cena beating these new guys, which does nothing for them in terms of building. If Cena just looses to them, then looses to 'Taker, it has no pay off and does nothing for anyone involved. It ruins a match that people are crying out for that doesn't need anything added to it, it should just be this:

Wrestlemania XXX
John Cena vs. Undertaker

That's all it needs. No stables, just Cena going up against his greatest challenge and Undertaker having to go through the fight of his life to protect his great achievement.

What has happened here with your booking is you have put a group of new talents in a stable that isn't needed for the match, and one that doesn't have them involved with the pay off in the story (The 'Mania match). They are just bit players, and if they are debuted like this then it will take them a long time to shake this image. I mean when 'Taker and Cena clash at Wrestlemania who do your guys wrestle? Because they are not involved against anyone else and as such they just stay as bit players that no one will care about.


With my stable however, you have a group fighting a group. It's end result is a group of matches at Wrestlemania and beyond for everyone involved, in a way that elevates Punk and Bryan firmly into the main event scene, debuets AJ Styles in a strong fashion to the upper mid card and brings in two young guys with a strong backing and give them time to get over with the crowd. It's a booking that tells a full story and ends with everyone involved having both their stock raised and gives everyone involved an end result.

The Authority angle befits greatly from another stable becoming involved, putting a stable into Cena vs. Undertaker overbooks a perfect, simple wrestling angle and results in a group of new guys getting lost in the shuffle.

ShagNastii

I like your idea. The introduction of Shane O would be no doubt interesting plus an injection of the tag team would add super talent to your group. But I think you are probably overselling the debut of AJ.

The days of a hyped crossover (I believe) are well and truly gone. I think TNA will needs to improve ten-fold before one of their stars causes a Jericho or Tazz-like ripple upon arrival. Sting or a returning WWE star are the only wrestlers that could cause that kind of stir.

Another blip could the fact "McMahons at war" deflects so much from the out and out wrestlers and what they are there to do. They have decent personalities but when you look at the main event of WM2000 having the McMahons involved just adds dull baggage to feuds that could be perfect without them.


I'll give you the fact Cena V Taker sells itself and but I'd stronger disagree with you view that the involvement of added players would did little for no one. It's all a case of doing something a bit different with UT.

For countless years now Taker has done the voiceless tribute act. Let's meat him out again like they did with the Ministry of Darkness. Keep it somewhat tweeter but create this new faction as a throwback. Would do something fresh with Taker and would WITHOUT DOUBT give the newbies involve a serious rub.

It would be like The Shield or Nexus. Drop them right in the deep end. All (bar Paige) have gimmicks that are going to be compared to Taker why not make a full blown link.


My guys don't need matches at Mania involve them in Takers match, like Arn Anderson at WM X-8. All you need is that image of a victorious Taker (ministry) down on knee, The Ascension by his shoulders and darkly Paige crawling over Cena's carcass. Instant stars.

thebostoncrab

Shagnasti

ShagNastii wrote: »

I like your idea. The introduction of Shane O would be no doubt interesting plus an injection of the tag team would add super talent to your group. But I think you are probably overselling the debut of AJ.

The days of a hyped crossover (I believe) are well and truly gone. I think TNA will needs to improve ten-fold before one of their stars causes a Jericho or Tazz-like ripple upon arrival. Sting or a returning WWE star are the only wrestlers that could cause that kind of stir.

That's why you debut the stable in a more "smarky" city like Philli or Chicago. There would be enough fans who have seen AJ or know the name enough to be interested enough to give him a pop. If you have him wrestle on week 2 and have the commentators and groups make it out to be a big deal, the more casual fans will accept it and AJ will be over. Will he be on the level of Y2J? Of course not, but this feud isn't designed to insantly slot him into the main event, but the upper mid card and allow him time to naturally get over with the WWE fan base. How? Strong matches and being involved in a feud where his character has a strong end goal that focuses on him (US Title vs. Ambrose). That's what makes a stable work, which I'll get to fully in a moment.

ShagNastii wrote: »

Another blip could the fact "McMahons at war" deflects so much from the out and out wrestlers and what they are there to do. They have decent personalities but when you look at the main event of WM2000 having the McMahons involved just adds dull baggage to feuds that could be perfect without them.

Who said it would end up being "A McMahon in every corner" situation like WM2000? Shane is there and so is Steph, but they don't need to be included in the match ups. In fact, make a big deal of that in the build up. Leading up 'Mania, Orton will stress that he goes out to fight in the main event alone, so that he can prove to the world that he and he alone has everything needed to be the face of the company. Shane can tell Punk he doesn't need to be ringside because Punk is already the best in the world and can beat Orton alone.

ShagNastii wrote: »

I'll give you the fact Cena V Taker sells itself and but I'd stronger disagree with you view that the involvement of added players would did little for no one. It's all a case of doing something a bit different with UT.

Classic feuds are simple. HBK vs Taker worked because it was simple. Y2J vs HBK worked because it was simple. Taker vs. Cena works because it's simple and a no brainer. If you added a whole extra group into it it cheapens the match and cheapens Undertaker. He only beat Cena because he has help from his group? That makes the match look weaker and 'Taker a coward, which is not who he is and wouldn't connect with fans. Plus who would they be cheering for? If 'Taker had a stable then he is playing heel, but no one boo's 'Taker, no casual fan would and certainly no Smark would. At least Cena getting boos is part of who he is.

ShagNastii wrote: »

For countless years now Taker has done the voiceless tribute act. Let's meat him out again like they did with the Ministry of Darkness. Keep it somewhat tweeter but create this new faction as a throwback. Would do something fresh with Taker and would WITHOUT DOUBT give the newbies involve a serious rub.

I have doubt. I have a huge amount of doubt. Because there is no main goal for the stable members. Your feud is Cena vs Undertaker, with the goal being a match at 'Mania. Your stable are not in the match, and if they have a match at 'Mania it's not involved with this feud, therefore they are bit players, which does not give them the rub.

ShagNastii wrote: »

It would be like The Shield or Nexus. Drop them right in the deep end. All (bar Paige) have gimmicks that are going to be compared to Taker why not make a full blown link.

The Shield and Nexus worked because they stood on their own ground. Your guys are nothing more than lackies for Undertaker, which is very different to standing on their own feet. If your stable debuted without Undertaker then I think you're onto something, but by attaching them onto Undertaker just to overbook Cena vs 'Taker reduces them to bit parts.

ShagNastii wrote: »

My guys don't need matches at Mania involve them in Takers match, like Arn Anderson at WM X-8. All you need is that image of a victorious Taker (ministry) down on knee, The Ascension by his shoulders and darkly Paige crawling over Cena's carcass. Instant stars.

Instant stars? The only people who has success from the Minstry only found out years after the group were finished and after their gimmicks were completely repackaged, even to the point of changing names. If standing beside a big name makes you an instant star, then there is a massive backlog of names that should be bigger then they ended up being. Compare this with Legacy for example, the reason Batsita and Orton became huge is because they were booked as equals to HHH and Flair, and every match up has them standing on their own two feet, not blindly following their leader and doing their bidding, as this booking you have proposed would do.

My stable, however, has a story plan for every single member that results for them that allows them to ride on their individual success, rather than the success of the groups leader. You say your guys don't need a match to get over? They are wrestlers, it's what they are expected to do. If they don't wrestle and are booked simply as 'Takers helpers against John Cena, you prevent them from getting over and just make them become another Mideon or Gangrel; a bit player.

Bounty Hunter

Shagnasti

this poll closes in a few hours iirc and atm it is very tight so should really be bumped onto page one until we have our first Semi finalist

Bounty Hunter

Shagnasti

Who knows what might have happened had he made another rebuttal in the past 2 days but commiserations Shagnasti by only one vote thebostoncrab moves on to The Semi Final stage. Congrats Crabman