Resistance to updates in training methods and the potential impact.

PeadarCo

Its something that has popped up in the debate about Sky in general and the supposed effectiveness of their training program versus other teams by David Walsh and Sky themselves and why teams don't just copy.

The Irish times published this article

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/english-soccer/you-don-t-need-a-dressing-room-spy-to-know-something-is-up-with-van-persie-1.1621503

While not directly cycling related but interesting when talking about the whole Sky training debate and training in general.

You'd think that premier league clubs with their massive budgets would get basic stuff such as strength and conditioning right. But according to that article some teams are still stuck in the dark ages relatively speaking.

The main point of the article is that due to differences between the amount of slow and fast twitch fibres different people should do different amounts of training. Specifically those with large amounts for fast twitch fibres should do less than people with lots of slow or risk injury. The article essentially blames bad pre-season training methods relating to strength and conditioning as a reason for Van Persie's injuries and David Moyes's history of having slow starts with Everton.

I wonder are there many teams in cycling are in a similar situation with similar impacts on performance but yet refuse to update themselves. In Sky's case may some teams reject Sky's methods like some Premier League teams because it goes against tradition no matter how illogical it might be.

I assume the same issues would also apply to amateur riders to some degree as well.

morana

PeadarCo wrote: »

Its something that has popped up in the debate about Sky in general and the supposed effectiveness of their training program versus other teams by David Walsh and Sky themselves and why teams don't just copy.

The Irish times published this article

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/english-soccer/you-don-t-need-a-dressing-room-spy-to-know-something-is-up-with-van-persie-1.1621503

While not directly cycling related but interesting when talking about the whole Sky training debate and training in general.

You'd think that premier league clubs with their massive budgets would get basic stuff such as strength and conditioning right. But according to that article some teams are still stuck in the dark ages relatively speaking.

The main point of the article is that due to differences between the amount of slow and fast twitch fibres different people should do different amounts of training. Specifically those with large amounts for fast twitch fibres should do less than people with lots of slow or risk injury. The article essentially blames bad pre-season training methods relating to strength and conditioning as a reason for Van Persie's injuries and David Moyes's history of having slow starts with Everton.

I wonder are there many teams in cycling are in a similar situation with similar impacts on performance but yet refuse to update themselves. In Sky's case may some teams reject Sky's methods like some Premier League teams because it goes against tradition no matter how illogical it might be.

I assume the same issues would also apply to amateur riders to some degree as well.

think the big teams are ahead of the game. Sure they try anything to get a few extra percent!

Amateurs are a different beast all together. you get a lot of people doing the same stuff year in year out and getting the same results. A lot of their training info is hand me down because somebody else did it!

I know a very good rider, Ras winner who advised easy pedalling until the start of the season only to de doing hard 20min intervals on the sly! the internet has almost everything you need re training and also almost everything you dont need. Its just a matter of picking out the good stuff!

The top Footie teams have top notch sport scientists working with them on a daily basis. Chelsea even have an ex cycling doctor! Maybe people like Moyes and other small clubs and managers dont have the money for a premium sports science team and rely on what has worked for the past but I think the top teams have a good setup.

le petit braquet

morana wrote: »

Maybe people like Moyes and other small clubs and managers dont have the money for a premium sports science team and rely on what has worked for the past but I think the top teams have a good setup.

Further on in the article it says that Craig Bellamy claims he wasn't trained properly when was as at that "big club" Liverpool and while top football clubs may have the money to pay for top sports science advice, in many cases it is overridden by the gut feel of the manager.

Slo_Rida

le petit braquet wrote: »

Further on in the article it says that Craig Bellamy claims he wasn't trained properly when was as at that "big club" Liverpool and while top football clubs may have the money to pay for top sports science advice, in many cases it is overridden by the gut feel of the manager.

That's Liverpool though :eek:

mcgratheoin

morana wrote: »

Maybe people like Moyes and other small clubs and managers dont have the money for a premium sports science team and rely on what has worked for the past but I think the top teams have a good setup.

The Van Persie example is from Moyes at Man Utd so hardly a small club. In addition, the cost of a premium sports science team is significantly less than what many clubs are spending on their star player, so I don't accept that argument regarding any premier league club in England.

My feeling is that even at the top level of sport I think there's a huge lack of understanding of how individual athletes react to training programmes. Team sports are much more prone to this, where a prototypical "ideal" fitness profile is identified and every player is shoehorned into that regime. This leads to highly qualified trainers and very smart people making significant errors that may only manifest themselves in a small percentage of players. Take Dave Matthews' assertion that the perfect GAA player has the same type of fitness as an 800m runner as an example. While this may be true and is a reasonable belief, if Usain Bolt turns up to play corner-forward, putting him through an 800m training programme will deaden the attributes that get him onto the team in the first place. I would be very surprised if many football clubs had completely individualised training programmes for every player and most of them may not even recognise that this might be a good idea!

PeadarCo

It would be interesting to know how many team managers could with gut instinct and what was done in the past instead of using the most up to date methods.

From an amatuer or underage point of view its interesting to note the article mentions that a study done on the Danish first division noted that the players had more slow twitch fibres than the average person. Essentially bad training methods at an underage level got rid of alot the players with a bit of pace due to injuries caused by bad training. This whole thing probably justifies Cycling Ireland keeping Juniors at A3 except for certain situations.

petethedrummer

In fairness things have changed under Brendan Rodgers. Steven Gerrard is less injury prone. Why? More recovery.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/10306174/Liverpool-manager-Brendan-Rodgers-reveals-secrets-behind-Steven-Gerrards-training-regime.html

del_boy13

mcgratheoin wrote: »

if Usain Bolt turns up to play corner-forward

That is something I would gladly pay to see

WillyFXP

wot r futbawl?

morana

le petit braquet wrote: »

Further on in the article it says that Craig Bellamy claims he wasn't trained properly when was as at that "big club" Liverpool and while top football clubs may have the money to pay for top sports science advice, in many cases it is overridden by the gut feel of the manager.

Yes under Benitez he based a lot on what the player could do in a beep test. Riise hated them but Paco liked Riise and used to cook the books for him hence he was selected almost every game. Under Rodgers he has embraced the sports science and uses it to manage players to ensure their fitness. Gerrard is a prime example of this philiosophy. Regarding Manchester its widely reported that DMoyes had Van persie doing double sessions which didnt help him during preseason. The manchester players are also complaining that the training is too hard.

So I would say manchester having sacked all of their previous coaches they are suffering from the methods dmoyes used at goodison and are quite rightly in midtable. YNWA

morana

this is a good read if you like football+fuentes http://storify.com/GreggCarter/giggs-boson-s-tweets-on-fuentes-trial-and-doping-i

shaka

petethedrummer wrote: »

In fairness things have changed under Brendan Rodgers. Steven Gerrard is less injury prone. Why? More recovery.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/10306174/Liverpool-manager-Brendan-Rodgers-reveals-secrets-behind-Steven-Gerrards-training-regime.html

Is he not injured again ?

Mugser

And yet if you take the money one of those soccer pansies gets paid in a year, whether they play or not (due to being out crying or getting hair transplants or the like), you'd more than likely have enough to fund a top tier pro cycling outfit for an entire season. Shame.

thebouldwhacker

Dang, something wrong with this computer, it keeps directing me to the soccer forum.....

petethedrummer

shaka wrote: »

Is he not injured again ?

I don't know, is he? In general he is less injury prone. Obviously no plan is fool proof.

mistermatthew

petethedrummer wrote: »

I don't know, is he? In general he is less injury prone. Obviously no plan is fool proof.

Yeah hamstring, out for 6 weeks

Captain Havoc

Whilst I see the relevance of using soccer, this thread has been nothing but soccer, any chance of a bit of cycling discussion in the cycling forum?

PeadarCo

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Whilst I see the relevance of using soccer, this thread has been nothing but soccer, any chance of a bit of cycling discussion in the cycling forum?

The point I was trying to make is that people automatically assume that top level teams/individuals always have and use the most up to date information.

One of the big things that's come out of debate around Sky and the whole marginal gains is that how effective is it? and why don't people copy it.

If look at football where budgets dwarf anything any cycling teams have still don't get basic things(for them) such as physical conditioning right because they cling to outdated/incorrect methods of training.

Could something simple as just paying attention and using the latest advances in sport science have a big effect on a team and its riders. While others dismiss it because it goes against received wisdom.

Because if we assume going forward riders are drug free this where increases in performance will come. How big of an effect could sport science have?

It also highlights the minefield amateurs face even when dealing with qualified people.

mcgratheoin

Does anyone know a bit more about the training programmes at pro cycling teams? I'd be particularly interested in seeing how climbers train, given that drafting is so much less of a factor at the slower speeds up a mountain. One question I'd like to ask is do the team (or the climbers in a team) all train together - i.e. at a Sky training camp in Tenerife do they take off on group rides up a climb and if so, how is the effort regulated? Is it a case of everybody told to output the same power or the same % of threshold or just to ride at the same pace, and if this is the case then you have one of two situations; some riders are riding easier or harder than others as they either wait for or keep up with their teammates.

Rambling Man

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Does anyone know a bit more about the training programmes at pro cycling teams? I'd be particularly interested in seeing how climbers train, given that drafting is so much less of a factor at the slower speeds up a mountain. One question I'd like to ask is do the team (or the climbers in a team) all train together - i.e. at a Sky training camp in Tenerife do they take off on group rides up a climb and if so, how is the effort regulated? Is it a case of everybody told to output the same power or the same % of threshold or just to ride at the same pace, and if this is the case then you have one of two situations; some riders are riding easier or harder than others as they either wait for or keep up with their teammates.

Maybe somebody will write a book about it

petethedrummer

I heard SKY are doing long slow miles on a fixie in the fat burning zone.

uphillonly

"On a Friday before a game, we would be doing heavy lifting squats and that took a lot out of my legs. I was actually being detrained." - Craig Bellamy

This seems incredible and is rightfully described as prehistoric. Any club cyclist with enough training info just from Internet forums would know you'd never do this the day before a race. If you did it once your body would be telling you very clearly the next day not to do that again the day before.

I don't blame Bellamy for refusing to train.

harringtonp

Going back briefly to ball sports or at least rugby, anybody who has seen the Tommy Bowe documentary is bound to be impressed by the training/recovery science.

Suspect rubgy is one of the more cutting edge sports in this regard

harringtonp

Chapter 8, "Using power to manage performance" in Allen and Coggan goes into great detail on training the correct amount.