Atheists not welcome in Irish Medieval History?

Galvasean

Howdy folks. Some of you may have heard about this. Long story short but the popular Facebook group 'Irish Medieval History' has caused a bit of a stir in that it appears that the page's admin has taken a disliking to atheists and has begun banning them.
Here's a piece I wrote yesterday outlining the goings on:

http://www.krank.ie/category/society/atheists-welcome-irish-medieval-history/

Since then a lot of people claim to have been banned from the page for posting the article and asking if it is accurate. Here is one such user:
https://twitter.com/oceanclub/status/409999412996227072/photo/1

About two hours ago the admin stated that a response to the allegations is forthcoming (note the deletion of other replies, including one which was quite jovial).
https://www.facebook.com/Medieval.Ireland/posts/651923558184775

Interesting times...

Sarky

Something something freedom of speech they should be allowed be stupid f*ckwheels rabble rabble rabble.

Nodin

After a quick read I'd say this is a case of an asshole with a banhammer on a crusade of his own making - eg

"Religion can never be removed from history no matter how poisonous the attitude of “militant Atheists” is nor can highly selective interpretations of history be used to support Neo-Pagan belief. So why are they so belligerent and attack without understanding or even reading our posts?"

robindch

Sheesh, somebody needs a coffee and a hug. Stat.

Geomy

Or maybe a box of seasons greetings, a tin of USA biscuits and a Coca Cola teddy. ...

For the time that's in it and all that.

Turtwig

Galvasean wrote: »

About two hours ago the admin stated that a response to the allegations is forthcoming (note the deletion of other replies, including one which was quite jovial).
https://www.facebook.com/Medieval.Ireland/posts/651923558184775

Interesting times...

All I can see is one person posting to themselves.

Nodin

Jernal wrote: »

All I can see is one person posting to themselves.

or 'a load of ****' to be more concise. I'd like to add "egotistical pseudo intellectual" to my earlier description.

Galvasean

Jernal wrote: »

All I can see is one person posting to themselves.

Our good friend Robin was talking to him, but when Robin asked him to stop using hostile and provocative language he was banned and all of his posts deleted :rolleyes:

Turtwig

Galvasean wrote: »

Our good friend Robin was talking to him, but when Robin asked him to stop using hostile and provocative language he was banned and all of his posts deleted :rolleyes:

He managed to ban Robin? I want to shake his hand. I've been trying to do it with ages now and all I get are errors and browser crashes.

Sulla Felix

Firstly atheists are not banned from this Facebook page or I would have to ban myself.

False flagging or something?

Brian Shanahan

I decided to go ahead and report the whole page, given the admin's gratuitous misuse of the ban hammer. If enough of us kick up a stink to Facebook, maybe the IMH crowd would get the idea that this kind of activity is beyond the pale.

Turtwig

Facebook wouldn't give two fiddles.

nagirrac

Is it time to have another poll on atheist ideology?

Turtwig

nagirrac wrote: »

Is it time to have another poll on atheist ideology?

Public perception polls of atheism would be interesting. It seems like everyone is regarded as an evil intolerant anti-theist hell bent of building an autocracy.

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

Our good friend Robin was talking to him, but when Robin asked him to stop using hostile and provocative language he was banned and all of his posts deleted :rolleyes:

A self-imposed ban -- the moderator was so unhinged that I excused myself, then unliked and unfollowed the group, then he deleted all my posts, then deleted everything the only other poster posted. As luck would have it, I happened to take a screenshot (currently in my office) on my way out the door in case the fossil record was re-arranged.

I was new to that group, but unless it's recently changed moderation policy or just been hacked by some immature wannabe, I'd be fascinated to learn how it had managed to acquire 150,000 followers with that kind of attitude.

Nodin

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I decided to go ahead and report the whole page, given the admin's gratuitous misuse of the ban hammer. If enough of us kick up a stink to Facebook, maybe the IMH crowd would get the idea that this kind of activity is beyond the pale.

.....what "crowd"? It doesn't appear to be connected to a magazine, website or society, university.....yer man may well be the founder and sole moderator.

Galvasean

Jernal wrote: »

Public perception polls of atheism would be interesting. It seems like everyone is regarded as an evil intolerant anti-theist hell bent of building an autocracy.

That'd be interesting alright. See if/how it contrasts with these American findings:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=in-atheists-we-distrust

robindch wrote: »

I was new to that group, but unless it's recently changed moderation policy or just been hacked by some immature wannabe, I'd be fascinated to learn how it had managed to acquire 150,000 followers with that kind of attitude.

I have a few friends who follow the group and have done so for some time. they share photos from it on their wall by times, but I never noticed any of the overly provocative stuff that has been appearing recently.

Gordon

It's just a Facebook page, much like a discussion forum, they play by their rules so you can't expect to have neutral ground there. It's not a governmental body or a public sector thing is it?

robindch wrote: »

A self-imposed ban -- the moderator was so unhinged that I excused myself, then unliked and unfollowed the group, then he deleted all my posts, then deleted everything the only other poster posted.

Considering the subject matter of the Facebook group, that's hilarious! History? DESTROY!

Brian Shanahan

Jernal wrote: »

Facebook wouldn't give two fiddles.

If enough people complained they would. Facebook's whole business strategy is based around keeping people happy.

Turtwig

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

If enough people complained they would. Facebook's whole business strategy is based around keeping people happy.

Last time I checked atheists were in an extreme minority.

Obliq

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

If enough people complained they would. Facebook's whole business strategy is based around keeping people happy.

Nope, it's definitely based around making money. It took a massive campaign of complaining to and threatening to boycott the companies who's adverts showed up on the same facebook page as gross images of (with accompanying text recommending) violence against women before facebook listened. They wouldn't listen to the direct complaints of a massive number of their members, they only listened to the companies who advertise with them.

Jernal wrote: »

Last time I checked atheists were in an extreme minority.

Quite. Our own Irish "massive" atheist campaign are mostly all present up here on A&A!

expectationlost

so who is this guy is he an academic? or a hobbiest?

RDM_83 again

I'm lost at the issue here?
Like the standard boards.ie response if you don't like the forum its not for you?(Possibly not much so much now but take a look at the old feedback to see how it was)
And in fairness he's leaving comments like this up and thats on the first bunch of them you click on sure there is probably lots more

Alex Dickinson It's all a pagan festival anyway: the date (25th Dec) is from Mithraism, trees, mistletoe, candles, resurrection after 3 days, you name it. All xtianity added was adoration of a man atop a torture device; hardly positive.

Alex Dickinson Says "Churches of Atheism" then goes on to talk about reason & intellect - oh the irony. (I prefer"Merry Mythmas" myself, or "Giftmas" - as that's what it's all about.)

On the actual comments thread about the Holy Days-holidays post, doesn't it make sense to keep a page about Irish Medieval History at least broadly in line with Irish medieval history or at least topical things like the holidays and entomology, and keep arguments to one thread/posting

Manach

Truly sad that the OP did not make into that forum given that the Medieval period was one of the great times in European history as a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina. And it had a great respect for the intrinsic truth of things, such as the absolute Christian nature of Christmas based on a firm grasp of history instead of flights of fantasy.

Turtwig

Manach wrote: »

Truly sad that the OP did not make into that forum given that the Medieval period was one of the great times in European history as a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina. And it had a great respect for the intrinsic truth of things, such as the absolute Christian nature of Christmas based on a firm grasp of history instead of flights of fantasy.

I haven't the slightest clue in the nay of jimmy's what you mean here.

pauldla

Manach wrote: »

Truly sad that the OP did not make into that forum given that the Medieval period was one of the great times in European history as a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina. And it had a great respect for the intrinsic truth of things, such as the absolute Christian nature of Christmas based on a firm grasp of history instead of flights of fantasy.

Medieval Europe as a 'great time'? 'a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina'? 'a firm grasp of history'? 'flights of fancy'?

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Nodin

Manach wrote: »

Truly sad that the OP did not make into that forum given that the Medieval period was one of the great times in European history as a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina. And it had a great respect for the intrinsic truth of things, such as the absolute Christian nature of Christmas based on a firm grasp of history instead of flights of fantasy.

Didn't we have this out before? About the whole "Res Christina" thing?

Nodin

pauldla wrote: »

Medieval Europe as a 'great time'? 'a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina'? 'a firm grasp of history'? 'flights of fancy'?

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

He's not a fan of the 'mud and blood' school of fantasy, certainly.

Pherekydes

Manach wrote: »

And it had a great respect for the intrinsic truth of things, such as the absolute Christian nature of Christmas based on a firm grasp of history instead of flights of fantasy.

Were people not celebrating mid-winter thousands of years before Christianity began?

gaynorvader

Manach wrote: »

Truly sad that the OP did not make into that forum given that the Medieval period was one of the great times in European history as a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina. And it had a great respect for the intrinsic truth of things, such as the absolute Christian nature of Christmas based on a firm grasp of history instead of flights of fantasy.

The good old days of the crusades and inquisitions sure.

Brian Shanahan

Manach wrote: »

Truly sad that the OP did not make into that forum given that the Medieval period was one of the great times in European history as a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina. And it had a great respect for the intrinsic truth of things, such as the absolute Christian nature of Christmas based on a firm grasp of history instead of flights of fantasy.

Oh yeah, it was so great and peaceful that the Pope had to invent a fued with our Muslim neighbours because chrisitan lords were so into killing each other that it was the only way to get them to stop, creating a causal chain of events which is still causing misery to untold millions around the world.

Go tell your fantasy somewhere else Manach, we're firmly part of the reality based community here in A&A

Nodin

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Oh yeah, it was so great and peaceful that the Pope had to invent a fued with our Muslim neighbours because chrisitan lords were so into killing each other that it was the only way to get them to stop, creating a causal chain of events which is still causing misery to untold millions around the world.

Go tell your fantasy somewhere else Manach, we're firmly part of the reality based community here in A&A

O there was far more fun and games than that. There was the crusade against the Albigensians, the Northern/Baltic crusades against whoever wasn't saying prayers to baby Jesus (quite a few, as it happened)....and the odd war against the orthodox lads, who were praying to the wrong baby Jesus (the orthodox one has a beard).

And the Jew bashing. Wouldn't be medieval Europe without a bit of Jew bashing. And of course there was the usual killing over land, money, power and for the craic with no mention of religion at all, at all.

The annoying thing is, I'm 99% sure I've pointed this out to him before, its all checkable on the interwebz, and here he is spouting the same shite again......

Geomy

Manach wrote: »

Truly sad that the OP did not make into that forum given that the Medieval period was one of the great times in European history as a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina. And it had a great respect for the intrinsic truth of things, such as the absolute Christian nature of Christmas based on a firm grasp of history instead of flights of fantasy.

What's all that in layman's language ?

Wasn't that when the whole of Europe was in absolute chaos...

nagirrac

Geomy wrote: »

Wasn't that when the whole of Europe was in absolute chaos...

Except Ireland, which saved civilization apparently

Nodin

Geomy wrote: »

What's all that in layman's language ?

Wasn't that when the whole of Europe was in absolute chaos...

...but they'd a better grasp of historical facts concerning baby Jesus. Don't forget that bit. Its very important.

Geomy

nagirrac wrote: »

Except Ireland, which saved civilization apparently

We were probably more progressive when we were Pagan, look at Newgrange....

Brian Shanahan

Nodin wrote: »

O there was far more fun and games than that. There was the crusade against the Albigensians, the Northern/Baltic crusades against whoever wasn't saying prayers to baby Jesus (quite a few, as it happened)....and the odd war against the orthodox lads, who were praying to the wrong baby Jesus (the orthodox one has a beard).

Well if I were going to include every evil I knew spread by manach's beloved church, I'd still be typing the post you replied to on Stephen's day.

RDM_83 again

Geomy wrote: »

We were probably more progressive when we were Pagan, look at Newgrange....

Are people really arguing that the Church/Christianity actually increased violence and warfare in the period??

While its not possible to conduct an alternative history experiment where Christianity is not introduced, if you take a look at the European Iron Age cultures they are vastly warlike and many of the indigenous religions practiced some type of human sacrifice. War was a celebrated part if these cultures, just look at the Irish heroic cycles, while Christianity might not have removed this at least it added a separate more pacifistic strand.
An example of this would be the idea of Chivalry where the violence and power associated with a warrior elite is attempted to be constrained, yes it was ineffective and its importance overemphasized by romantics but at least there is an attempt made which would be absent under the pre-christian European religions.

If the increased warfare after the collapse of the Roman Empire (and chaos always follows the disintegration of centralised power, look at Libya/Irag at the minute), is going to be used to argue against this point, remember if your taking the view of Gibbon's that Christianity contributed to its demise remember he argues this because it made the Romans less Martial.

gaynorvader

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Are people really arguing that the Church/Christianity actually increased violence and warfare in the period??

While its not possible to conduct an alternative history experiment where Christianity is not introduced, if you take a look at the European Iron Age cultures they are vastly warlike and many of the indigenous religions practiced some type of human sacrifice. War was a celebrated part if these cultures, just look at the Irish heroic cycles, while Christianity might not have removed this at least it added a separate more pacifistic strand.
An example of this would be the idea of Chivalry where the violence and power associated with a warrior elite is attempted to be constrained, yes it was ineffective and its importance overemphasized by romantics but at least there is an attempt made which would be absent under the pre-christian European religions.

If the increased warfare after the collapse of the Roman Empire (and chaos always follows the disintegration of centralised power, look at Libya/Irag at the minute), is going to be used to argue against this point, remember if your taking the view of Gibbon's that Christianity contributed to its demise remember he argues this because it made the Romans less Martial.

I liked the greater equality in the pagan Celtic society.

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

About two hours ago the admin stated that a response to the allegations is forthcoming (note the deletion of other replies, including one which was quite jovial).
https://www.facebook.com/Medieval.Ireland/posts/651923558184775

Note deletion of entire topic.

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

Note deletion of entire topic.

I'm getting:

Note deletion of entire page.

Galvasean

4 notifications? Well, oh la dee da mister Popular! :P

Brian Shanahan

Galvasean wrote: »

4 notifications? Well, oh la dee da mister Popular! :P

They're either six months old or notifications for the AGM of the GAA club.

Hotblack Desiato

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I decided to go ahead and report the whole page, given the admin's gratuitous misuse of the ban hammer. If enough of us kick up a stink to Facebook, maybe the IMH crowd would get the idea that this kind of activity is beyond the pale.

So, so naive. Facebook make Google and the NSA look like choirboys.

obplayer

Manach wrote: »

Truly sad that the OP did not make into that forum given that the Medieval period was one of the great times in European history as a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina. And it had a great respect for the intrinsic truth of things, such as the absolute Christian nature of Christmas based on a firm grasp of history instead of flights of fantasy.

As they say in Dublin, wha..???
Where did the Christmas trees come from, the Bible? Is it all nothing to do with the winter solstice? Really??

Frank Lee Midere

Nodin wrote: »

O there was far more fun and games than that. There was the crusade against the Albigensians, the Northern/Baltic crusades against whoever wasn't saying prayers to baby Jesus (quite a few, as it happened)....and the odd war against the orthodox lads, who were praying to the wrong baby Jesus (the orthodox one has a beard).

And the Jew bashing. Wouldn't be medieval Europe without a bit of Jew bashing. And of course there was the usual killing over land, money, power and for the craic with no mention of religion at all, at all.

The annoying thing is, I'm 99% sure I've pointed this out to him before, its all checkable on the interwebz, and here he is spouting the same shite again......

The vast majority of wars were in fact territorial or wars of succession. You can read entire histories of bloody Britain where the crusades were a mere sideshow. A few hundred Aristos trek to Jerusalem.

There was continuous war though - example the 100 years war. The ongoing crushing of the Welsh, and Scots. Wars of succession every second generation. The Anarchy. The barons war. The second Barons war. War of the roses. To name 2, or 3 out of hundreds.

Despite this the high medieval era was also probably less bloody than the dark ages - a time of pagan Anglo-Saxon genocide against Christian Roman-Britons, followed by pagan Viking attacks on (then Christian) Anglo Saxons which pushed Anglo Saxon England to Somerset and the South West.

It was also less bloody, if you think about the rest of the world, than the Enlightenment, which accelerated colonialism.

Sarky

Manach wrote: »

Truly sad that the OP did not make into that forum given that the Medieval period was one of the great times in European history as a semi-united continent in faith within the Res Christina. And it had a great respect for the intrinsic truth of things, such as the absolute Christian nature of Christmas based on a firm grasp of history instead of flights of fantasy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

Nodin

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The vast majority of wars were in fact territorial or wars of succession. You can read entire histories of bloody Britain where the crusades were a mere sideshow. A few hundred Aristos trek to Jerusalem.

There was continuous war though - example the 100 years war. The ongoing crushing of the Welsh, and Scots. Wars of succession every second generation. The Anarchy. The barons war. The second Barons war. War of the roses. To name 2, or 3 out of hundreds.

Despite this the high medieval era was also probably less bloody than the dark ages - a time of pagan Anglo-Saxon genocide against Christian Roman-Britons, followed by pagan Viking attacks on (then Christian) Anglo Saxons which pushed Anglo Saxon England to Somerset and the South West.

It was also less bloody, if you think about the rest of the world, than the Enlightenment, which accelerated colonialism.

No offence, but there's more to Europe than Britain. That being said I often find it hard to find translations of more modern works as regards Europe.

Turtwig

Bumpity bump.

Got randomly reminded of this thread. Is this guy still knockin atheists?

walrusgumble

Sarky wrote: »

Something something freedom of speech they should be allowed be stupid f*ckwheels rabble rabble rabble.

So should freedom of association and disassociation, which the said group seem to be exercising. rabble rabble