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An Teanga
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06-12-2013 2:48pm#1What is the story with the Brythonic and Goidelic languages? There seems to be two contrasting viewpoints - one that it came to these shores via Celtic expanison in the Hallstatt/La Tene era, and another that it came in the Early Bronze Age, with the Beaker people as the best candidate.
A lot of recent research is swinging towards the latter, but what are your thoughts?
I think that the languages were here long before the Celtic era, and that they probably spread from Iberia and West France through trading networks in the Copper Age, with a lot of the pre-Indo European Irish language intermixed...
I know this isn't specifically an archaeological topic, but you know yourselves
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Comes down to what you define as "Celtic". From a linguistic point of view Irish is a Celtic language, in it's oldest registrar "Archaic Irish" (as written on Ogham) it's extremely close to written Gaulish. The most important feature of course been that it's more "archiac" via retention of Proto-Celtic "Kw" (written as Q in Ogham).
From what written inscriptions remain it would appear that La Tene "material cultural" would have been P-Celtic speaking (Leptonic and Gaulish), some suggestions that this was also the case during the Hallstat period. Generally Hallstat is seen as succesor to Urnfield material culture. To the west of this was the "Atlantic Bronze Age" material zone (1300-800BC).
There's some debate that both of these zones were Proto-Celtic speaking. In such a scenario one possibility is that western dialects of "Proto-Indo-European" had spread during Bronze age (Beakers etc.). This would have left a "dialect chain" of closely related dialects. (Think of dialect chain in German for example), if new features developed in one of these "dialects" and this specific "dialect" had prestige (due to trade, metallurgy skills etc.) then it's quite possible that these linguistic traits would spread among the neighbouring closely related dialects of "Western Indo-European".
As a result you could get "Proto-Celtic" arising, and then spreading as a prestige speech form. The most basic definition of "Proto-Celtic" is deletion of Indo-European "P"
For example:
example:
Proto-IE: *pisḱ- (fish)
Proto-Celtic: *ɸēskos --- (*ɸ = deletion)
Irish: iasc
Latin: piscis
Italian: pesce
In Proto-Germanic this sound actually shifted to F, thence fish in english.
Now that's just a theory, but of course later we know that in a dialect of "Proto-Celtic" another sound shift happened, this resulted in "Kw" ( which is an inherited sound from proto-IE, Q in q-celtic) been shifted to a P. This over time spread to cover the core of area that is regarded as Hallstat/La Tene by time of Roman's.
Perhaps one could regarded it as the "Dort accent" of the Celtic linguistic zone. Those fancy Rhinelanders with their chariot graves and swirly metal work.
Of course everyone forgets that in Goidelic that V/W shifted to F (Vindos -> Find -> Fionn), whereas in Brythonic it shifted to gw (Vindos -> gwyn), that's why Wine in Irish is Fíon and not Víon.
Likewise the infamous "Q" subsequently merged with K in Old Irish period. Of course during the same period (circa 1200BC) Agamemnon what cursing Helen in "Q-Greek" (mycenaean greek), which by the classical greek period had undergone a similar sound-shift as found in Gaulish.0 -
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How is it erroneous? Irish is a Celtic language, it belongs to the Celtic branch of the Indo-European Family. Just as English belongs to the Germanic branch and Russian belongs to the slavic branch as other examples.
"Material culture" doesn't define a "linguistic community". For example the material culture of today's England is quite different from that of 1013, let we know that both in 1013 and today in 2013 that the English are speakers of a Germanic language.
La Tene is a material-culture specifically connected to a number of elite chieftainships that originated in the North Alps/Rhineland region during the Iron Age, it then as a style spread outwards, this spread was probably as much about trade as it was conquest/movement. What's probable is that the "linguistic innovation" which saw the sound shift of "Kw -> P" probably arose among these local elites (or their predecessors in Hallstat-C and Hallstat-D cultures).
La Tene material culture is associated with the Gaulish language, which is closely related to "Archaic Irish" (as appears on Ogham). The two languages were as closely related to each other as Dutch is to say "Low German".
What's evident is Leptonic from Northern Italy (associated with "Golasecca Culture") had undergone the sound-shift possibly as early as the 7th century (definetly by the 5th). Some have argued that this was due to contract/trade with the Etruscan's. A similar sound shift is seen in several Italic languages such as Oscan and Volscian, though Latin retained the sound (Q-Italic anyone?)
La Tene material is rare on the ground in Iberia as well, unsurprising you see another "Q-Celtic" language survive here until the Roman period. What this points to is that Ireland and Iberia were on the periphery, linguistic innovations (Q->P) and material innovations (new art styles etc.) didn't spread into them until much later if at all.
Proto-Celtic which is the common ancestor of all the Celtic languages (Goidelic, Brythonic, Gaulish, Leptonic, Noric, Galatian, Celtiberian, Gallaecian) probably existed during the Bronze age. This would put it as a contempory with other branches of "Proto-IE" such as "Mycanean Greek" (Hellenic), Hittite, Indo-Iranian which are attested during this period in the written record.
There is no evidence a "P-Celtic" language was spoken in Munster, if anything it's more likely that "P-Celtic" (related to Proto-Brythonic perhaps?) influence would be more felt in northern half of Ireland (Leath Cuinn -- Conn's half). This would tie in with
(a) La Tene material found there
(b) the pseudo-historical concept that certain groups had "Cruithne" ancestry, "Cruithne = British" (as in Britons not the modern concept).
(c) Ogham has it's highest concentration in Munster
(d) Isoglosses in modern Irish
What we can say at a minimum about population structure is that the Irish genetically cluster closest to the British and then the French, that's partially a artifact of geography, you re always going to be closer to neighbouring populations.
Secondly going on Busby's Royal Society study about 70% of Irishmen belong to Haplogroup R1b-L21 (R1b1a2a1a2c) this probably arose during the Bronze Age (2000-1700BC) and on the continent. eg. 70% of Irishmen are direct lineage descended from 1 man who lived during the Bronze Age.
Given nature of Irish society during the middle ages where one man could produce up to 50 male descendants within 2 generations (see Nichol -- "Gaelic and Gaelicised Ireland during the Middle Ages") it's not surprising that lineages could expand rapidly.0 -
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Ogham is divided into two periods. These been:
- Orthodox inscriptions -- date to "Archaic Irish" (Primitive Irish) stage
- Scholaristic inscriptions -- date to "Old Irish" period up until modern times
The orthodox inscriptions are all in "Archaic Irish" and are generally dated from 400-600AD. In comparison you can find "Scolaristic" inscriptions in Pictish as well (generally date 600-900AD).
The Silchester Ogham stone found in the "Roman town" of the same name in 1893 has been dated to somestage during the 4th-5th century based on a recent reassement of the well that it was found buried in.This unique Ogham stone was found in 1893 during the excavation of Silchester Roman Town in Hampshire, about 95 miles from the nearest other Ogham stone at Crickhowell in Powys.
The Ogham inscription is carved on a dwarf column made of sandstone, about 60cm in height, that was placed upsidedown at the bottom of a well by the west end of the southern corridor of House 1, Insula IX. Re-excavation of the site in 1998-2000 unearthed some fragments of oak at the bottom of the well, which have been radiocarbon-dated to 130-380 and 320-540, giving a probable date for the closing of the well of about 350-425. Archaeologists working on the Silchester site believe that the depositing of the Ogham-inscribed stone in the well marked both the sealing of the well, and the end of occupation of the associated building.
http://babelstone.blogspot.ie/2009/11/ogham-stones-of-elsewhere.html
There some debate if this stone is connected to Irish traders in Roman Britain.
The ogham stones in Wales and Cornwall are connected with Irish settlement in western Britain after the Roman withdrawal. Though I recall reading somewhere that some of the settlement in Wales may have been Irish who were serving as roman Foederati.
The pseudo-history talks about the Laigin (Laighin = Leinster), the Déisí (Waterford) and the Uí Liatháin been involved.
The Llŷn Peninsula in Wales (beside Anglesey) getting it's name supposedly from the Laigin (Laighin = modern Irish).
Anyways who ever came up with Ogham (Ogam = old Irish form) was familiar with the Roman alphabet, so it probably did arise due to contacts with Roman Britain. However the earliest inscriptions (orthodox) could be termed "pagan", you often see the use of the term "MUCOI" (member of a tribe).
here's a famous example from Kerry:
MAQQI-IARI KỌỊ MAQQI MỤCCOI DOVVINIAS
('of Mac-Iair here son of the tribe of Duibne')
http://ogham.celt.dias.ie/stone.php?lang=en&county=Kerry&stone=156._Ballintaggart_II&stoneinfo=inscriptionThis is one of the inscriptions listed by McManus (1991, 93-4) to be among the earliest in the corpus showing no trace of vowel affection. It may be dated to the first half, or the early second half, of the fifth century (McManus 1991, 97).
All but one of the inscriptions containing the tribal name DOVINIAS ('of Duibne') have been found on the Dingle peninsula, barony of Corkaguiney (Corcu Duibne), which got its name from that tribe or sept (McManus 1991, 111).
This is the earliest mention of the "Corcu Duibhne", this name persists this day in the name of the pensisula: "Corca Dhuibhne" known now adays as the "Dingle Penisula" in english, though the english barony name is: Corkaguiny
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As for DNA we are basically an admixed population, when it comes to male lineages (Y Chromosomes, passed from father to son) there looks like there was mass replacement of male lineages after the Neolithic, probably during the Copper/Bronze ages.
A comparable scenario is what happened in the likes of Latin america where you have heavily admixed population. Every modern Irish person is thus a mixture of various population groups that have merged over time, resulting in a fairly "even distribution" of genetic traits across the whole population.
Even then those coming in with these newer "Y-Lineages" were themselves probably admixed to a certain extent. Over time you end up with a "blender effect".
For example using my 23andme data file (data on 1 million SNP's) the Dodecad project predicted the following admixture for myself -- when using 13 putative ancestral populations:
K=13
North_European = 54.1%
Mediterranean = 33.5%
West_Asian = 9.4%
South_Asian = 2.2%
Amerindian = 0.9% (noise?)
The above are rounded numbers thence it coming to 100.1% when you tot them up, it's also probable that the Amerindian percentage is "noise" and not accurate.
As a comparison the general "Irish_D" population (n=17) scored:
K=13
North_European = 59.1%
Mediterranean = 33.7%
West_Asian = 6.2%
South_Asian = 0.6%
Amerindian = 0.4%
--Edit---
I should note that 23andme predicts that I'm 2.8% Neanderthal -- they claim "European average" is 2.7% 0 -
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Oppenheimer's book is about 10 years out of date. Part of issue was the belief that Haplogroup R1b was a monolithic block in Western Europe (going by little of what was know of it's subclades) and that the Basque's were some sorta reservoir of "Cro-Magnon" men who had perservered since the Ice age. Thirdly ancient DNA retrieved form mesolithic and Neolithic sources is telling a very different story.
On Point 1 the tree structure of European R1b has undergone the following changes due to new discoveries over last couple of years, the direction of flow for branches (eg. Oldest -> youngest) is from East -> West. Here's some trees from over the years showing discoveries:
2003:
2005:
2009:
Back in 2009, R1b-L21 only had three subclades these been:- M37 -- now known to be private, only found in one sampe ever
- M222 -- associated with Uí Néill and Connachta -- very large branch
- P66 -- semi private, associated with Airghialla II cluster -- small branch of Maguires of Fermanagh
The current state (October) of R1b-L21 looks like the following:
Each subclade is marked by a snp (eg. L21, DF13, DF41 etc.) you could kinda think of these as "breadcrumbs".
Point 2 -- Basque has native words for metal, Basques also tend to have high levels of "South European" admixture akin to what's seen in Sardinians and Otzi the iceman. Some have suggested that Basque is actually a language of the neolithic/copper age.
Point 3 -- ancient DNA, both Y-Chromosome and Nuclear (Autosomnal) is pointing towards distinctive differences from today's population.0 -
A lot of this is really over my head but very very interesting
If Irish and the Brythonic languages are reasonably similar to each other, where do you think they originated? Do you think they originated in Hallstatt/La Tene culture, or were they present prior to that? If they were present before then, where was their origin?
You're probably thinking, "Dammmn, I thought I explained that three posts ago?" Well, I'm thick so there :P0 -
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markesmith wrote: »A lot of this is really over my head but very very interesting
If Irish and the Brythonic languages are reasonably similar to each other, where do you think they originated? Do you think they originated in Hallstatt/La Tene culture, or were they present prior to that? If they were present before then, where was their origin?
You're probably thinking, "Dammmn, I thought I explained that three posts ago?" Well, I'm thick so there :P
Well by default they originate in "Proto-Celtic" which is the root ancestor language of all the Celtic languages. The question is do Brythonic and Goidelic form a shared "branch" (Insular Celtic) compared to say the likes of Gaulish.
It's quite reasonable to believe that "Proto-Celtic" was spoken during the 2nd Millenium BC (1,999BC-1,000BC). It would have developed from a branch of "Western Proto-Indo-European", generally there is some debate that Italic is closest branch to Celtic. Some have suggested a possibility of a shared "Proto Italo-Celtic" stage.
One way to think of this is you have a bunch of interconnected dialects, new features develop in one dialect, don't arise in another. Result is a branching event.
Hallstat and La Tene are material cultures of the iron age. They developed specifically out of Urnfield culture of central Europe.0
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