Meal v silage

TUBBY

this may have been covered before but a general question to ye.

with meal prices lower this year, lot of articles about economics of meal feeding with silage etc and also finishing on silage + meal v ad-lib.

my question is, in general how much silage less does a store eat for every kg of meal fed.

eg store on silage only = x kg pit silage daily
store on silage + 2 and 4 kg meal = how much kg pit silage daily

sorry for making it look like a junior cert question:)

bob charles

TUBBY wrote: »

this may have been covered before but a general question to ye.

with meal prices lower this year, lot of articles about economics of meal feeding with silage etc and also finishing on silage + meal v ad-lib.

my question is, in general how much silage less does a store eat for every kg of meal fed.

eg store on silage only = x kg pit silage daily
store on silage + 2 and 4 kg meal = how much kg pit silage daily

sorry for making it look like a junior cert question:)

work of the presumption that a store animal will eat 2.5% of their bodyweight each day, its probably closer to 2% for lighter animal but anyway

400kgs animal eating 2% of bodyweight eats 8kgs of Dry matter(DM) material each day

8kgs DM of silage at 25% dm is 32kgs of fresh silage
8kgs DM of grain at 85% dm is 9.4kgs of meal

An animal eating 2.25kgs of meal will require 6kgs DM silage or 24kgs of fresh silage to fulfill its appetite

thats only the eating side of things you now have to consider the energy side of things and this is where it gets tricky

A DM kilo of silage might have half the energy as a kilo of top quality grain is in essence and animal might only have to eat 4kgs of DM grain to get the same energy as eating 8kgs of DM silage

all above figures are just for illustration

munkus

Good man Bob

We work off the "fork it into them" and give them a "dash of nuts" principal. Slightly less scientific than yourself :-)

Farmer Pudsey

Bob more or less has it in a nut shell. However just to add dairy bred cattle Friesians are more likely to eat towards 2.5% of body weight or cattle that have compensatory growth. While traditional breeds and Contenintal cattle will eat at lower Levels towards 2% body weight. Bulls will eat 0.1-0.2% more than bullocks.

Good quality silage 70+dom will allow cattle to put on 0.5kgs body weight a day. Cattle find it hard to take in enough DM if eating low DM silage even if of good quality while on lesser quality Hay/haylage they will preform better.

This is why in my opinion lads that make below average quality silage ( 65ish DMD) if they change over to bales and end up making 28-35 DM silage see a vast improvement in there cattle.

PS This is all my own opinion I have no scientific papers to prove it.

Muckit

Talking off the top of my head, but what Id love to know are the 'cut off points' as regards economics ....


Not wording this great but here goes...

what's the most economical combination of quality silage and meal to get the best weight gain

It's not as simple as throwing as much meal or silage at them. Obviously making quality silage comes at the expense of bulk and buying in more concentrates costs money... it's not an easy maths problem at all, more like college than junior cert level!

TUBBY

Good man muckit. My question was basically to work that out for myself based on 35% DM silage and the answers here. Still not making a fist of it though.

Cheaper concentrates this year make feeding few kg to the stores viable I reckon but it comes back to that report from another thread where feeding large amount of concentrate had lost its effect after the next grazing season.

I have settled on 2kg conc for stores which is saving 6-7kg silage per animal and also better balanced diet.

Robson99

bob charles wrote: »

400kgs animal eating 2% of bodyweight eats 8kgs of Dry matter(DM) material each day

8kgs DM of silage at 25% dm is 32kgs of fresh silage
8kgs DM of grain at 85% dm is 9.4kgs of meal

all above figures are just for illustration

Bob would that mean that they would only need 16kgs of silage of 50%dm [or haylage]?

Is haylage inferior to silage for weight gain?

on the river

silage all the way . cheap production and quality stuff .

bob charles

Robson99 wrote: »

Bob would that mean that they would only need 16kgs of silage of 50%dm [or haylage]?

Is haylage inferior to silage for weight gain?

yes

and maybe yes:)

bob charles

Muckit wrote: »

Talking off the top of my head, but what Id love to know are the 'cut off points' as regards economics ....


Not wording this great but here goes...

what's the most economical combination of quality silage and meal to get the best weight gain

It's not as simple as throwing as much meal or silage at them. Obviously making quality silage comes at the expense of bulk and buying in more concentrates costs money... it's not an easy maths problem at all, more like college than junior cert level!

What you have to do then in feed testing, and work out a price per ME/calorie. once you have this info, stick it in a spread sheet and volla

Farmer Pudsey

Robson99 wrote: »

Bob would that mean that they would only need 16kgs of silage of 50%dm [or haylage]?

Is haylage inferior to silage for weight gain?

Yes and no.

Haylage allows greater intake which improves performance compared to same quality low DM silage. However a lot of what is described as haylage is often a failed attempt to make hay a different product completely.

Even hay can be made that is above 70%DMD however you have to cut grass at right stage and not wait for the weather. You can then end up cutting a low 60's DMD crop try to make hay and after 10 days wrap a haylage type product that is little better than straw in feed value.

Robson99

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yes and no.

Haylage allows greater intake which improves performance compared to same quality low DM silage. However a lot of what is described as haylage is often a failed attempt to make hay a different product completely.

Thanks Pudsey. We make Haylage here too for the horses and yes its proper haylage. Usually down for 3 days and within a day or so of hay.

Just notice when finishing cattle are given a bale of haylage the seem to eat a lot less of it. I thought this might be effecting performance / daily wt gain

Farmer Pudsey

Robson99 wrote: »

Thanks Pudsey. We make Haylage here too for the horses and yes its proper haylage. Usually down for 3 days and within a day or so of hay.

Just notice when finishing cattle are given a bale of haylage the seem to eat a lot less of it. I thought this might be effecting performance / daily wt gain

The reason they eat less is that haylage is usually about 60% DM. Cut with a mower conditioner maybe tedded out or conditioned with a conditioner, rowed up and baled. These bales might weigh only 600kgs but a 60%DM contain 360 kgs of same. A bale of round silage might only be 25% DM and a 750kg bale would have 190 kg of DM. So you can see why they eat less

Robson99

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The reason they eat less is that haylage is usually about 60% DM. Cut with a mower conditioner maybe tedded out or conditioned with a conditioner, rowed up and baled. These bales might weigh only 600kgs but a 60%DM contain 360 kgs of same. A bale of round silage might only be 25% DM and a 750kg bale would have 190 kg of DM. So you can see why they eat less

You would wonder why some fellas bale so quick after cutting. Isnt it more beneficial to get it to 50%dm?

Farmer Pudsey

Robson99 wrote: »

You would wonder why some fellas bale so quick after cutting. Isnt it more beneficial to get it to 50%dm?

Often you are baling to a window of opportunity. For instance I work and always try to bale Friday or Saturday when I or the young lad have a chance to bring in. Also hayladge is more prone to spoilage if it gets air holes in it, You also lose the sugars in the grass in two days and the saving are small idealy to really save money you need to make high DMD hay. However tis brings it own problems with feeding issue's in slatted houses unless you chop. Chopping hay leads to seed loss and lot of old timers reckon a lot of the feeding in the hay was in the seed.

What I more worry about is timing you need to first cut lay May early June to get good quality silage it one thing putting it off a week to get good weather however waiting for weather to settle in late June is a disaster you then have a very late second cut or else you end up with no aftergrass until September. Also you have to factor in the spreading of Fertlizer to get the nest crop or bite for cattle,

Midlandsman80

I am just starting a process to clean up a yard and sheds for a new small suckler/ weanling too beef enterprise. The sheds have no land around them, I will have 5 acres of peat land within 1 km on small dead end road so no bother walking them up it.

Too get them fed grass/silage for the summer/winter is what i need too plan now.

I hope to do a deal on 20 acres 15 miles away, with the discussions on grass fed beef Feb-Nov and the cost of silage after all labour I thought of a solution that would suit me. Couldnt a just fully graze the land for as long we possible and buy in silage, some big sellers in my area delivering at €23 a bale. From what I saw on here some ppl have theirs priced close too that for costings. Why would I bother making silage 15miles away when I can get it delivered for €23?

Does anyone know anyone doing anything like this? major pitfall would be at the mercy of a bad year like last year when it got dear but I would know 100% that I will need to buy bales so I would not need to wait until feb/march when the whole country was after them.
What are my other pitfalls in doing this?
There is also good access to beet in my locality

Farmer Pudsey

Midlandsman80 wrote: »

I am just starting a process to clean up a yard and sheds for a new small suckler/ weanling too beef enterprise. The sheds have no land around them, I will have 5 acres of peat land within 1 km on small dead end road so no bother walking them up it.

Too get them fed grass/silage for the summer/winter is what i need too plan now.

I hope to do a deal on 20 acres 15 miles away, with the discussions on grass fed beef Feb-Nov and the cost of silage after all labour I thought of a solution that would suit me. Couldnt a just fully graze the land for as long we possible and buy in silage, some big sellers in my area delivering at €23 a bale. From what I saw on here some ppl have theirs priced close too that for costings. Why would I bother making silage 15miles away when I can get it delivered for €23?

Does anyone know anyone doing anything like this? major pitfall would be at the mercy of a bad year like last year when it got dear but I would know 100% that I will need to buy bales so I would not need to wait until feb/march when the whole country was after them.
What are my other pitfalls in doing this?
There is also good access to beet in my locality

What you are looking at is total unfeasible you will not have the scale to make a profit and your land if you can do the deal will be 20 miles away. That is a 40 mile round journey to see cattle during the summer and there will not be enough there to justify it

There is also a big difference between making 70+ DMD @ an average of maybe over 30DM costing 23 euro and buying silage that may be only 60dmd and 25%DM. One is a good quality feed costing 10c/kg of DM capable of putting 0.5kg on cattle when fed ad-lib. The other costing13c/kg DM will only be capable of maintaining condition on cows if even that. When cows calve it will need to be supplemented with 4kgs of a dairy ration.

just do it

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You also lose the sugars in the grass in two days

From what I gather on here a few lads are wilting silage for close on two days (36 hours probably more accurate) in order to produce quality silage. When do sugars drop off? Is it a linear decline or do they drop off the cliff at two days?

Midlandsman80

Hi FP, I said 20 acres and 15 miles,just checked and its 12 miles but I should have added more info...
I live in town 8 miles from home, the land is 5 miles from me here, the land would be from a good friend at a very competitive rate and he would be only too happy to keep an eye on them from me, he has loads of time on his hands.
The sheds have about 3 acres of high and very dry/sheltered bits of land about them, this is 500 yards from my home house where my semi retired dad lives who also has an interest in helping out.
I would hope to only more the animals to the grazing land once and would intend selling most of the autumn born weanlings in July/Aug.
The seller says the silage is 68 dmd and depending on what its been fed too there are plenty of sellers about of all grades.

I have a good OFJ, don't need an income from it for next few years, am under 35, I have a keen interest in farming, I have access to fairly cheap land and sheds and I have help from home and access to constructive advice on here so I cant see many reasons not too give it a go....

just do it

MM80
You've your mind made up so go for it. You're only leasing so you can give it up if it doesn't work out.

I was advised once that you might regret trying something, but it will never be as bad as the regret you'll feel if you let the opportunity slip by.

Best of luck.